Guardians 5, Twins 4: Twins Waste Chances, Create Too Few, Cleveland Finds Chances Everywhere

[chinmusic]

9 hours ago, NYCTK said:

At this point I don't want the pohlads to get the financial benefit. 

I hear you, but isn't that like cutting off your nose to spite your face?

I, too, lay  significant blame on ownership for this mess. So frustrating to watch other contenders utilize deadline additions. But I still want the Twins to make the playoffs. Why not?  It's a long cold winter. Keep the relevance going for as long as possible, albeit as bleak as it looks.

 

[NYCTK]

13 minutes ago, chinmusic said:

I hear you, but isn't that like cutting off your nose to spite your face?

I, too, lay  significant blame on ownership for this mess. So frustrating to watch other contenders utilize deadline additions. But I still want the Twins to make the playoffs. Why not?  It's a long cold winter. Keep the relevance going for as long as possible, albeit as bleak as it looks.

 

I've been against the expansion of the wild card for the exact reason we're seeing. Whether it's the twins or the tigers, neither team is a "playoff" team. 

Why we playing 162 teams just to invite teams we all know are mediocre? 

I say this knowing my other team the Mets might be the beneficiary of that expansion. But not a fan in the world is chanting "We're number 12!". No one should be celebrating this team. At least they don't get a home game if they do limp in. Those seats would be empty, and rightfully so. 

[MinnInPa]

11 hours ago, Rosterman said:

Why Henriquez? Why not Blewett, fully rested. If you can't trust every pitcher in your pen. But, wait, he did trust...Tonkin.

After tonight you have to play your best players every game. Each and every game until you have no more games to win (or lose). Period.

 

i wouldnt trust Henriquez with a 10 run lead in the bottom of the ninth..not MLB worthy pitcher.

[Blyleven2011]

9 hours ago, darwin22 said:

Can't say I remember this (I was 2.5 years old), but if referencing the 1967 Twins, you can hardly call that a collapse.  Twins held a 1-game lead in the final series of the season against Boston (at Fenway) after winning the 1st game, but dropped the final 2 games to finish in a 2nd place tie with Detroit.

To me that was a collapse , the twins  were leading the division and were the favorites to win  , it was a upset and Boston went on to lose to the cardinals in 1967 WS in 7 games ...

[terrydactyls]

11 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

Why we playing 162 teams just to invite teams we all know are mediocre? 

That's an easy question to answer...

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Peter]

How can you not be fans of the twins!!! Seriously!!!! As I’ve said support our twins!!!! It’s way way too early for Vikings/wild/twolves!!!! As for MNUFC they shot themselves in foot with 2 month break. They are irrelevant!!! We need to support our twins!!!!! Especially now!!!!

[NYCTK]

11 minutes ago, MinnInPa said:

i wouldnt trust Henriquez with a 10 run lead in the bottom of the ninth..not MLB worthy pitcher.

Hyperbole. He'd fit in fine with a lot of bullpens. Most managers would be able to avoid using him in the 10th after being gifted a great start though. 

[Cap'n Piranha]

10 hours ago, S Bart said:

So, let's look at the owners. The Pohlads have money. They are #75 on the Forbes list with a worth of 3.8 billion dollars. Forbes lists the Twins team value as 895 million dollars. Old Man Pohlad bought the Twins from Calvin in 1984 for 44 million. Jim Pohlad (named owner) is tied for 8th on the chart link below.

MLB richest team owners in the U.S. 2024 | Statista

Not willing to spend money last month to improve pitching, announcing earlier this year that you (the owner) needed to save money by not willing to better the team, and not attempting to find out a solution to the broadcast issue earlier this summer which decreased you fan base....well it equals a non-caring owner.

Dear. Mr. Pohlad,

Either step up to the plate and put together a decent team via spending money or SELL THE TEAM, PLEASE>>>PRETTY PLEASE. When you invest in the team, you fill the seats, and build/maintain a caring fan base, and make money.

THANK YOU, 

A Twins fan since 1965

 

Everyone likes to point to franchise valuation as a reason the Pohlads are greedy.  Did you know that the growth in value you listed above is an annualized rate of return of 7.825%?  Seems pretty good until you realize that since 1984 the Dow Jones Industrial Average has grown at an annualized rate of 9.204%.

Put another way, on the basis of asset growth, the Pohlads have lost money by owning the Twins (about $80M) compared to if Carl had just put his original $44M in a generic DJIA fund, which would today be worth $978M.

Now obviously, the Pohlads have made operating profit on the Twins which surely outweighs that $80M (that is, if you added the franchise value to the post-tax profits for the last 40 years, it's surely a larger number than $978M).  However, this actually proves the point--if the Pohlads aren't making money on the Twins every year, they're actually losing money via opportunity cost.  I personally don't think anyone has the right to tell anyone else that they should lose money.

[chpettit19]

9 hours ago, Maybe Next Year said:

I can’t say for certain but I believe the Twins record in extra inning games this year is 4-14. Somebody please check me on this. In any event the Twins record in x inning games is pathetic and that falls on the manager. 

They're 4-7. Last year they were 12-8. Same manager. Is he doing something different this year that's causing this "pathetic" record in extra inning games? Forgot how to manage so well that they had a .600 winning percentage in extra innings last year but have a .364 percentage this year? Sure hope he just goes back to his brilliant managing from last year for the last 10 games.

[JD-TWINS]

11 hours ago, Rosterman said:

Why Henriquez? Why not Blewett, fully rested. If you can't trust every pitcher in your pen. But, wait, he did trust...Tonkin.

After tonight you have to play your best players every game. Each and every game until you have no more games to win (or lose). Period.

 

Seems that is clearly what the Manager did - he tried to use his Best available option with Henriquez. He’s throwing 97-98 but w/o command. His off speed got hit. Happens. Very unpleasant but theoretically, he’s better to get 3 outs than Tonkin or Blewett.

I realize you are being line-up specific with the “best players” comment.

If 6 guys in the line-up go for the collar the Team has no chance. Castro got hit twice and went 1-3……CC & Wallner had 3 hits each……4-9 in line-up were 0-24. The good players aren’t the problem, the balance of the line-up can’t be dormant.

Brooks Lee could be the most disappointing team member over the past weeks - he looks like a 9th grader on the high school varsity. As much as Julien is a defensive question mark and his offense is not great, he has to play in front of Lee v. RH pitching.

Win today and they’re 1 game out of 2nd Wildcard!

[NYCTK]

1 minute ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

Everyone likes to point to franchise valuation as a reason the Pohlads are greedy.  Did you know that the growth in value you listed above is an annualized rate of return of 7.825%?  Seems pretty good until you realize that since 1984 the Dow Jones Industrial Average has grown at an annualized rate of 9.204%.

Put another way, on the basis of asset growth, the Pohlads have lost money by owning the Twins (about $80M) compared to if Carl had just put his original $44M in a generic DJIA fund, which would today be worth $978M.

Now obviously, the Pohlads have made operating profit on the Twins which surely outweighs that $80M (that is, if you added the franchise value to the post-tax profits for the last 40 years, it's surely a larger number than $978M).  However, this actually proves the point--if the Pohlads aren't making money on the Twins every year, they're actually losing money via opportunity cost.  I personally don't think anyone has the right to tell anyone else that they should lose money.

You aren't "losing money" if you're a billionaire and your asset is growing slower than some other asset. This is such loser billionaire worship akin to those that think Elon must be a genius since he's so rich. 

And no one has power over a market fund like the Pohlads do over the value of the Twins. There's no reason the Twins couldn't be valued as highly as the Cardinals. No reason other than indifferent/incompetent ownership for 40 years now. 

#EatTheRich (except Steve Cohen) 

[Cap'n Piranha]

29 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

I've been against the expansion of the wild card for the exact reason we're seeing. Whether it's the twins or the tigers, neither team is a "playoff" team. 

Why we playing 162 teams just to invite teams we all know are mediocre? 

I say this knowing my other team the Mets might be the beneficiary of that expansion. But not a fan in the world is chanting "We're number 12!". No one should be celebrating this team. At least they don't get a home game if they do limp in. Those seats would be empty, and rightfully so. 

You are aware that literally just last year the 5 seed in the AL beat the 6 seed in the NL to win the World Series, right?  Those were by overall record teams 8 and 12 in MLB in 2023.

[chpettit19]

8 hours ago, David HK said:

Yes, the hitters SUCKED, especially Santana.  

But still, we had a chance to win.  That part is all on Rocco, and his bone-headed gassing of both Duran and Jax the night before.   4 run lead, bottom of the order in the 8th- THAT'S when you throw guys like Ronny and Tonkin.  NOT asking your closer for 2 innings, getting him in hot water, then having to bail him out with the guy who already admitted to the press the day before that the BP was "running on fumes."   Cripe, we may not have needed Duran at all last night.  He made it through that 9th, thank God, but on a night when we might have needed an extra inning out of him, no chance.

If we had had Jax for the 10th tonight, game over, crappy hitting nothwithstanding.  Thanks, Rocco.  I am so sick of this guy.

What 4 run lead did the Twins have the night before? They won the game 4-1 after having been tied 1-1 in the 4th. Maybe you wouldn't be so upset if you were going off accurate data. He actually used Henriquez in a 1 run game the night before when they were up 2-1 in the 7th. They scored 2 more in the 8th to take a 3 run lead and he went to his big guns to close out a 3 run lead. May want to get your details straight before ranting. And I'm totally fine if they fire Rocco. I'd fire the whole regime at this point. But at least complain about accurate stuff.

[JD-TWINS]

13 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

Hyperbole. He'd fit in fine with a lot of bullpens. Most managers would be able to avoid using him in the 10th after being gifted a great start though. 

Sub 3.00 ERA with a 97-98 mph fastball & a two run lead. Seems logical to me.

[NYCTK]

2 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

Seems that is clearly what the Manager did - he tried to use his Best available option with Henriquez. He’s throwing 97-98 but w/o command. His off speed got hit. Happens. Very unpleasant but theoretically, he’s better to get 3 outs than Tonkin or Blewett.

I think this is an important point. Just a few days ago I named all three of these guys as DFA candidates for any team in baseball and it's 100% true. Now, every team has those guys shuffle in and out, but a good organization will figure it out by the end of the season and either limit the number of guys like that in the pen, or at the least limit the number of high impact innings those arms will get. 

[NYCTK]

2 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

You are aware that literally just last year the 5 seed in the AL beat the 6 seed in the NL to win the World Series, right?  Those were by overall record teams 8 and 12 in MLB in 2023.

Yeah. And I think baseball is worse for it. 

I didn't watch a single game of the World Series because it wasn't even close to the two best teams. And neither did anyone else. It was the least watched ever. And I understand the trend is already that way, but allowing mediocre teams to get there doesn't help. 

[DJL44]

11 hours ago, Rosterman said:

Why Henriquez? Why not Blewett, fully rested. If you can't trust every pitcher in your pen. But, wait, he did trust...Tonkin.

After tonight you have to play your best players every game. Each and every game until you have no more games to win (or lose). Period.

Blewett vs Tonkin is rearranging deck chairs while the Titanic sinks.

[chpettit19]

44 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

I've been against the expansion of the wild card for the exact reason we're seeing. Whether it's the twins or the tigers, neither team is a "playoff" team. 

Why we playing 162 teams just to invite teams we all know are mediocre? 

I say this knowing my other team the Mets might be the beneficiary of that expansion. But not a fan in the world is chanting "We're number 12!". No one should be celebrating this team. At least they don't get a home game if they do limp in. Those seats would be empty, and rightfully so. 

Last year's World Series featured the 5th seeded Rangers beating the 6th seeded Diamondbacks. Those "mediocre" teams, and their fans, sure enjoyed squeaking in despite not being deserving playoff teams.

You wouldn't watch the Mets or Twins if they were in the World Series because they weren't top seeds and the game is worse for it?

4 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

Yeah. And I think baseball is worse for it. 

I didn't watch a single game of the World Series because it wasn't even close to the two best teams. And neither did anyone else. It was the least watched ever. And I understand the trend is already that way, but allowing mediocre teams to get there doesn't help. 

[Cap'n Piranha]

5 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

You aren't "losing money" if you're a billionaire and your asset is growing slower than some other asset. This is such loser billionaire worship akin to those that think Elon must be a genius since he's so rich. 

And no one has power over a market fund like the Pohlads do over the value of the Twins. There's no reason the Twins couldn't be valued as highly as the Cardinals. No reason other than indifferent/incompetent ownership for 40 years now. 

#EatTheRich (except Steve Cohen) 

You are losing money by opportunity cost.  You must realize this, right?  It's like trading for a 2 WAR player by giving up a prospect who became a 5 WAR player, and saying you didn't lose the trade because you got 2 WAR out of it.

There is absolutely reason, even with the Pohlads losing money, that the Twins might not reach the Cardinals valuation.  For one, the Cardinals have much less competition in their market than the Twins do in theirs (no NBA, no NFL for a good chunk of the last 40 years, and no major D1 university).  Second, just because you spend money doesn't mean you'll get results.  The Angels have outspent the Twins on payroll by hundreds of millions over the last decade, and have a much worse record, both in the regular season and the playoffs.

Ultimately, fans are far more likely to show up for games if the team is playing well than if the team is highly paid, and pretending the two are inexorably linked ignores reality.

I also don't worship billionaires, or particularly care at all about Elon Musk.  I just think it's ridiculous that you think you should have say in how they want to spend their money.

[NYCTK]

6 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

Sub 3.00 ERA with a 97-98 mph fastball & a two run lead. Seems logical to me.

Sure, but era is about as useful a stat for relievers as Wins are for starters. Relievers themselves don't hardly pay attention to their own era. 

And what use is a 98 mph fastball if its one of the most destroyed pitches by hitters? Velocity is but one component.

And I don't say this to say Ronny is bad and shouldn't be a major leaguer. He could be a solid arm. But he isn't right now. 

[thelanges5]

Correa and Ober deserved better. 

Once again, our slumping offense puts too much pressure on our depleted bullpen. 
 

Sixth game since August 15 where we had a greater than 85% chance to win and we blew it in the final innings. 

[JD-TWINS]

5 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

I think this is an important point. Just a few days ago I named all three of these guys as DFA candidates for any team in baseball and it's 100% true. Now, every team has those guys shuffle in and out, but a good organization will figure it out by the end of the season and either limit the number of guys like that in the pen, or at the least limit the number of high impact innings those arms will get. 

The Orioles just DFA’d Kimbrel yesterday…… I wouldn’t consider them as a poorly run organization. Teams/Managers play odds for their player’s performance……,”how can Craig keep struggling with his experience and stuff??” He’s sucked for an extended period and they hung on to him and kept giving him opportunities until there were only 10 games left in the season. His history & $$ owed played into it but the point is Teams want to believe or assume guys will regress or progress to their norms. (i.e. Caleb Thielbar)

[Cap'n Piranha]

5 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

Yeah. And I think baseball is worse for it. 

I didn't watch a single game of the World Series because it wasn't even close to the two best teams. And neither did anyone else. It was the least watched ever. And I understand the trend is already that way, but allowing mediocre teams to get there doesn't help. 

So you would be in favor of simply handing the World Series trophy to whichever team finishes with the best regular season record?  That way we ensure the "best" team always wins.

Now that I think of it, that's probably not ok either.  We should crown the World Series champion at the end of the offseason, and not let the silly metric of who wins the game on the field determine who the best team is.

[NYCTK]

3 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

You are losing money by opportunity cost.  You must realize this, right?  It's like trading for a 2 WAR player by giving up a prospect who became a 5 WAR player, and saying you didn't lose the trade because you got 2 WAR out of it.

There is absolutely reason, even with the Pohlads losing money, that the Twins might not reach the Cardinals valuation.  For one, the Cardinals have much less competition in their market than the Twins do in theirs (no NBA, no NFL for a good chunk of the last 40 years, and no major D1 university).  Second, just because you spend money doesn't mean you'll get results.  The Angels have outspent the Twins on payroll by hundreds of millions over the last decade, and have a much worse record, both in the regular season and the playoffs.

Ultimately, fans are far more likely to show up for games if the team is playing well than if the team is highly paid, and pretending the two are inexorably linked ignores reality.

I also don't worship billionaires, or particularly care at all about Elon Musk.  I just think it's ridiculous that you think you should have say in how they want to spend their money.

I know we don't have a right to say how billionaires spend their money. And I understand opportunity cost. 

I also understand any billionaire that views their franchise merely as an investment opportunity is a loser and should be heavily criticized. As should any fan defending those owners. 

The owner in Major League wasn't the hero of that movie, even if her financial strategy was sound. 

[Riverbrian]

57 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

I've been against the expansion of the wild card for the exact reason we're seeing. Whether it's the twins or the tigers, neither team is a "playoff" team. 

Why we playing 162 teams just to invite teams we all know are mediocre? 

I say this knowing my other team the Mets might be the beneficiary of that expansion. But not a fan in the world is chanting "We're number 12!". No one should be celebrating this team. At least they don't get a home game if they do limp in. Those seats would be empty, and rightfully so. 

I promise I won't go back into history any further. 

But lets go back to last year. The Rangers were the 5th seed with a 90-72 Record. The Blue Jays were the 6th seed with an 89-73 Record. The Astros also won 90 games, The Blue Jays won 89 games and the Twins won 87. Two Teams were above that pile. The Orioles won 101 games and the Rays won 99 games. The Orioles won 11 more games over 162. Which is one more win every 14.7 games. 

The Rangers lost 4 out of their last 6 regular season games as the backed into the playoffs. They swept the 99 win team Rays in 2 and then swept the 101 win Orioles in 3. Followed by a 7 game series victory over the Playoff Seasoned Astros. 

The Rangers then won the World Series by beating the National League 6th seed Arizona Diamondbacks. 

Arizona finished with an 84-78 record. The D-Backs lost their last 4 games of the season to back in past the Cubs. Much like the American League. There were two teams with lofty win totals. The Braves won 104... who many proclaimed to be the greatest team ever and the Dodgers with 101 wins. The Braves won 20 more games than the D-Backs which over the course of 162 game season equates to one more win every 8.1 games. 

Arizona swept the 92 Win Brewers in two and swept the 101 win Dodgers in three before going toe to toe for 7 games against the 90 win Phillies. 

Fast forward to September 19, 2024. The Yankees have the best record in the American League with a 89-63 record. The Twins are currently hanging on to the 6th seed with a record of 80-72. 9 games separate the Yankees and Twins over 152 games with 10 to go. Which is 1 more win every 16.8 games. 

I will not go to 2022 or beyond to show this all over again.... But I do type all of this to say that I don't except your definition of mediocre. 😎

[DJL44]

10 hours ago, knothole61 said:

allow Duran to throw more than 11 pitches--do so, and the Twins would likely have notched a very important win tonight.   

Duran threw 30 the previous day. They can't use him for multiple innings every game.

[chpettit19]

2 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Duran threw 30 the previous day. They can't use him for multiple innings every game.

WRONG! A smart manager would find a way to have Pablo, Ober, Jax, and Duran throw every inning from here until the end of their World Series run.

[DJL44]

9 hours ago, Nashvilletwin said:

Btw, I was going to comment on the decision to let Santana bat in the 10th (0-4 at that point with RISPs and looking lost in each at bat)

Other posters have called him the clutch god MVP of the team. You don't pinch hit for the clutch god MVP of the team.

[JD-TWINS]

Twins are either 1 or 2 games out of 2nd Wildcard at the end of today. Royals have 3 at home v. a fairly solid Giants club. They then go on the road for last 6, ending in Atlanta……. can be caught.

Red Sox are going to be charged up this weekend. 1 win & we’re OK with them as our Division record almost certainly has to be better than theirs in the East.

Tigers are the “probable” 2nd wildcard team at this point on paper as they finish with 3 at home v. White Sox. They are something - sweeping Royals in K.C. - gotta tip your cap.

Mariners are still hanging around.

Twins, with one win in Boston, holds the tie breaker advantage with all 4 Clubs. Hoping it comes in handy!

[Cap'n Piranha]

1 minute ago, NYCTK said:

I know we don't have a right to say how billionaires spend their money. And I understand opportunity cost. 

I also understand any billionaire that views their franchise merely as an investment opportunity is a loser and should be heavily criticized. As should any fan defending those owners. 

The owner in Major League wasn't the hero of that movie, even if her financial strategy was sound. 

Your second paragraph contradicts your first.  You have an opinion of how the Pohalds should operate their business (and it is a business first and foremost, else you'd have a hard time getting billionaires to write all those checks), and are roundly dismissive of anyone who doesn't behave in a manner you find appropriate.  You can opine the Pohalds spent more.  You can opine they would sell the franchise to a billionaire who likes to throw money around for clicks and giggles.  But you can't call someone a loser for wanting some level of return on their business, and then turn around and claim you agree you can't tell them how to run their business.