Minnesota Veterans Making Front Office Look Great

[RpR]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

And Margot looked like me trying to dive after a ball he had no business laying out for before the Lee throw.

He learned from Wallner.

[RpR]

4 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I didn't say he'd been a better first baseman, I said he'd been a better overall player.

If they do not play he same position any comparison is void and illogical.

[chpettit19]

2 minutes ago, RpR said:

He learned from Wallner.

Yes, veterans are often taking advice from 2nd year guys. I see your point.

[chpettit19]

Just now, RpR said:

If they do not play he same position and comparison is void and illogical.

Yes, no way to say Judge is a better player than Santana. Totally void and illogical comparison. 

[RpR]

2 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Yes, no way to say Judge is a better player than Santana. Totally void and illogical comparison. 

Why would one compart Judge to Santa, not on the same team nor play the same part of the ball field.

If there was any logic to that the All-Star game would have a lot of players playing out of position as they are better than the person normally picked to be there, by  analytics.😘

[D.C Twins]

'Respectable OPS 78+'  

Be honest Ted... there is no way you wrote that with a straight face!

The other option instead of Margot was 'none of the above, save money for pitching, and let the kids play'

THAT was the correct option. 

[D.C Twins]

5 hours ago, Shaitan said:

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, Patzky said:

..nobody except Carlos Correa thought Miranda would be as sexy as he has been in 2024..

No one thought Santana would have his best year in six years....

[Craig Arko]

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition. 

[Linus]

5 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

I'm curious, what true statement aren't you buying?

If you look at the overall stats & not look at the conditions. You miss the real picture. #1 Kiriloff started the season leading the team in hitting #2 they were afraid of his health yet they put him in a more demanding position. #3 he got hurt in correlation to when his slump started. #4 The problem wasn't that he was bad, it was due to him being hurt #5 So he wasn't sent to AAA but was put on the IL.

Since you deem them all “true” statements there is no curiosity on your point. You are making excuses for a guy that is a subpar fielder and hasn’t hit well. I wanted the FO to give AK the first base job this year. Boy am I glad they didn’t listen to me. 

[DJL44]

3 hours ago, RpR said:

Why would one compart Judge to Santa, not on the same team nor play the same part of the ball field.

Have you heard of the MVP award? The whole purpose of that is to compare players on different teams who play different positions.

[RpR]

2 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Have you heard of the MVP award? The whole purpose of that is to compare players on different teams who play different positions.

No, it is an award simply given to the player the judges think was he most valuble player to a team in a manner that his valu to that team exceeded any other players valu to a single team.

5 player on teams with losing records have won the MVP award.

[Fatbat]

2 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

No one thought Santana would have his best year in six years....

No one thought Nelson Cruz would defy father time like he did either.  Its all gotta be Baldelli’s fault. 

[stringer bell]

The asking price for Taylor, Kiermaier and Hoskins was out of the Twins’ self-imposed budget restrictions. For the dollars spent, the Twins got good value for Santana and probably have done okay so far with Margot.

The front office also decided to keep Farmer for $6M+, which made further or more expensive additions impossible. I’m not overly critical of the decisions, but it hasn’t been a clear win. 

[Mike Sixel]

20 minutes ago, Fatbat said:

No one thought Nelson Cruz would defy father time like he did either.  Its all gotta be Baldelli’s fault. 

F it. Not worth it. Have a great night. 

[Fatbat]

26 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

F it. Not worth it. Have a great night. 

….sleeper pick 🤗

[bean5302]

7 hours ago, Jocko87 said:

But Santana isn't keeping Miranda from playing.  It's the wrong comparison.  None of these are binary comparisons.  

Santana absolutely 100% kept Miranda from playing at the start of the season. 

[Jocko87]

42 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

Santana absolutely 100% kept Miranda from playing at the start of the season. 

Had Miranda made the team out of camp because they had no one else is different from Santana keeping him from playing.

His .566 OPS in 2023 and .360 slug in the spring are far more to blame than Santana.

I say again, nobody playing well is losing time to any of these vets (platoon rants in another thread please).

[Doctor Gast]

8 hours ago, Linus said:

Since you deem them all “true” statements there is no curiosity on your point. You are making excuses for a guy that is a subpar fielder and hasn’t hit well. I wanted the FO to give AK the first base job this year. Boy am I glad they didn’t listen to me. 

Last season Correa's hitting was sub-par & was fielding well below par according to his standard & he's had tremendous hours on the field to hone his skill. Are you also disappointed that they brought him back? Playing hurt makes a big impact on your performance, those stats should be thrown out when evaluating a player. Kiriloff is a great hitter when healthy, who needs to be placed and kept at 1B to stay healthy & finally hone his skills there. Kiriloff isn't a great defender overall but he can become a pretty good 1Bman or at least average. We aren't asking him to catch or play SS. I am open for you to prove me wrong. But like you said we are free to disagree & please forgive me if I came across as rude that wasn't my intent. My intent was only to debate.

[Riverbrian]

6 hours ago, Jocko87 said:

I say again, nobody playing well is losing time to any of these vets

"That you know of".. belongs on the end of this. Doesn't it? 😉

We can't say for sure how Camargo would do? Right? 4 AB's and all.  

Diego A?

Severino?

Keirsay?

Helmen?

Holland?

Could any of the above 6 out perform a .556 OPS? I don't know but that's a real low bar. 

 

 

 

 

[DJL44]

3 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

Kiriloff isn't a great defender overall but he can become a pretty good 1Bman or at least average.

Can he hurry up and do it then? He's 26 years old. He's in the middle of his professional career, not the beginning.

[Doctor Gast]

31 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Can he hurry up and do it then? He's 26 years old. He's in the middle of his professional career, not the beginning.

Years of being used in the OF because that was an area of need, having wrist problems then shoulder problems that sure doesn't help.

[DJL44]

10 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

Years of being used in the OF because that was an area of need, having wrist problems then shoulder problems that sure doesn't help.

An elite athlete can learn how to play 1B in about a month. I agree that being injured hasn't helped his play at 1B. He's also not as good of an athlete as many of his teammates.

[Doctor Gast]

10 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

An elite athlete can learn how to play 1B in about a month. I agree that being injured hasn't helped his play at 1B. He's also not as good of an athlete as many of his teammates.

1B isn't the place you want to put your elite athletes, it's a place where you want to hide your lesser athletes that can hit. Kiriloff can hit when healthy & 1B/ DH are the best place for him to stay healthy & he can hone that skill once given enough time for him.

[Jocko87]

4 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

"That you know of".. belongs on the end of this. Doesn't it? 😉

We can't say for sure how Camargo would do? Right? 4 AB's and all.  

Diego A?

Severino?

Keirsay?

Helmen?

Holland?

Could any of the above 6 out perform a .556 OPS? I don't know but that's a real low bar. 

 

 

 

 

Sure, but we could add that disclaimer to every post on the site.

We don't know what they saw in only 23 at bats for Wallner at the start of the year.  It wasn't playing well, I'm pretty sure.

I have a pretty good idea why Martin went down, back when he almost took out Keplers and Juliens knees in the same week. That can cancel out a lot of playing well if I'm in Rocco's shoes.

It's pretty obvious why Miranda didn't break camp but when he got his chance he played well, and was instantly a regular.

None of the names you mentioned really qualify, as none would be expected to make a contribution, absent emergency injuries. Festa maybe. Zebby if we are going off the 40 man but neither are ready. Had Festa thrown 12 innings of 1 run ball, I bet he would still be up. Like that other guy who's name I can't spell but was off everyone's radar, SWR.

It's very much a prove it organization. The best guy get playing time.

The framing should be that "fill in the blank youngster is not outplaying xyz veteran, even if the veteran is looking bad, that we can tell." Our minds dont work that way but it's the proper way to look at it. They have dozens of coaches and analysts for a reason.

When we scream for the rookie, what we are really saying is we think we know better with less information. Quite dumb, actually.

 

[Riverbrian]

56 minutes ago, Jocko87 said:

Sure, but we could add that disclaimer to every post on the site.

We don't know what they saw in only 23 at bats for Wallner at the start of the year.  It wasn't playing well, I'm pretty sure.

I have a pretty good idea why Martin went down, back when he almost took out Keplers and Juliens knees in the same week. That can cancel out a lot of playing well if I'm in Rocco's shoes.

It's pretty obvious why Miranda didn't break camp but when he got his chance he played well, and was instantly a regular.

None of the names you mentioned really qualify, as none would be expected to make a contribution, absent emergency injuries. Festa maybe. Zebby if we are going off the 40 man but neither are ready. Had Festa thrown 12 innings of 1 run ball, I bet he would still be up. Like that other guy who's name I can't spell but was off everyone's radar, SWR.

It's very much a prove it organization. The best guy get playing time.

The framing should be that "fill in the blank youngster is not outplaying xyz veteran, even if the veteran is looking bad, that we can tell." Our minds dont work that way but it's the proper way to look at it. They have dozens of coaches and analysts for a reason.

When we scream for the rookie, what we are really saying is we think we know better with less information. Quite dumb, actually.

 

I make no claims to know better... But I will make this claim. 

We/I/The Front Office doesn't know how... (pick a name from my haphazard list)... will do if pressed into major league duty. The only thing We/I/The Front office can say for sure... is how the players being pressed into duty this season have performed and we have a couple expiring contracts that... have not performed very well. 

My nutshelled suggestion and also my intended response to your quoted sentence... is to try someone else. 

Camago is called up... get him some AB's and let's see if he produces better than a .514 OPS. Diego is here now... let's see if he can produce better than a .556 OPS. If they can't... back down they go and let's try the next candidate out. 

It isn't lost on me and I do appreciate that Miranda was given a shot... made the most of it and is getting regular playing time until his injury because he earned that opportunity. That's the way it is supposed to work. 

However... Miranda getting that shot and succeeding is a case in point. The front office did not know that Miranda was going to do as well as he did. The front office did not know that Farmer was going to tank real real hard. If the front office knew either of these things would occur... Miranda would have broken camp with the club out of spring training and Farmer's 6 million option wouldn't have been picked up. 

I'm not going to claim to know anything about Camargo but what I do know is that Rocco has given him 4 AB's while Vazquez has a .514 OPS and handling the DH position because of the lack of options. .514 OPS is not good enough to keep anyone out of the lineup. 4 AB's is not enough to make any determinations. Therefore I think it's fair to point out "That we know of" be attached to your sentence that nobody playing well is losing playing time to these vets. 

BTW... Santana isn't part of my point. He's been decent this year. He's not a problem in my opinion. 

And missing on Farmer or Miranda isn't a criticism of the front office because all organizations make these type of missed assessments.

My constructive criticism is how long does it take to try someone else. You have players on the 26 man roster right now who should get the chance to clear a couple of low bars being set. 

 

[Jocko87]

36 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

I make no claims to know better... But I will make this claim. 

We/I/The Front Office doesn't know how... (pick a name from my haphazard list)... will do if pressed into major league duty. The only thing We/I/The Front office can say for sure... is how the players being pressed into duty this season have performed and we have a couple expiring contracts that... have not performed very well. 

My nutshelled suggestion and also my intended response to your quoted sentence... is to try someone else. 

Camago is called up... get him some AB's and let's see if he produces better than a .514 OPS. Diego is here now... let's see if he can produce better than a .556 OPS. If they can't... back down they go and let's try the next candidate out. 

It isn't lost on me and I do appreciate that Miranda was given a shot... made the most of it and is getting regular playing time until his injury because he earned that opportunity. That's the way it is supposed to work. 

However... Miranda getting that shot and succeeding is a case in point. The front office did not know that Miranda was going to do as well as he did. The front office did not know that Farmer was going to tank real real hard. If the front office knew either of these things would occur... Miranda would have broken camp with the club out of spring training and Farmer's 6 million option wouldn't have been picked up. 

I'm not going to claim to know anything about Camargo but what I do know is that Rocco has given him 4 AB's while Vazquez has a .514 OPS and handling the DH position because of the lack of options. .514 OPS is not good enough to keep anyone out of the lineup. 4 AB's is not enough to make any determinations. Therefore I think it's fair to point out "That we know of" be attached to your sentence that nobody playing well is losing playing time to these vets. 

BTW... Santana isn't part of my point. He's been decent this year. He's not a problem in my opinion. 

And missing on Farmer or Miranda isn't a criticism of the front office because all organizations make these type of missed assessments.

My constructive criticism is how long does it take to try someone else. You have players on the 26 man roster right now who should get the chance to clear a couple of low bars being set. 

 

My general response would be that they see things, that we are not privy to, that lead them to believe even giving a shot is not a realistic idea.  They know very well Diego A (and B) is not an option, he's here because they can afford to lose him on waivers.

For the Carmargo example, his 750 OPS in a very hitter friendly AAA environment probably does translate to a 500ish MLB OPS, but without Vazquez defense.  That's a break glass in emergency only option. 

And frankly, try something else is for the White Sox and As.  They aren't searching for a nugget.  

[Major League Ready]

19 minutes ago, Jocko87 said:

My general response would be that they see things, that we are not privy to, that lead them to believe even giving a shot is not a realistic idea.  They know very well Diego A (and B) is not an option, he's here because they can afford to lose him on waivers.

For the Carmargo example, his 750 OPS in a very hitter friendly AAA environment probably does translate to a 500ish MLB OPS, but without Vazquez defense.  That's a break glass in emergency only option. 

And frankly, try something else is for the White Sox and As.  They aren't searching for a nugget.  

I wanted to believe in Camargo.  He has not been great at AAA and I saw him in person when Camargo he was up this year.  He looked terrible and overmatched.  Granted, that was one day but it was not pretty.  I was hoping they would draft a college catcher last year in the 3rd-5th round.  It would have been really ideal if they could have gotten a AA or AAA catcher for Polanco even if it cost them addition assets.  Perhaps they could pull that off this off-season if Julien / Kirilloff rebound.

[Riverbrian]

17 minutes ago, Jocko87 said:

My general response would be that they see things, that we are not privy to, that lead them to believe even giving a shot is not a realistic idea.  They know very well Diego A (and B) is not an option, he's here because they can afford to lose him on waivers.

For the Carmargo example, his 750 OPS in a very hitter friendly AAA environment probably does translate to a 500ish MLB OPS, but without Vazquez defense.  That's a break glass in emergency only option. 

And frankly, try something else is for the White Sox and As.  They aren't searching for a nugget.  

I get that... Believe me I understand that they have access to data that you and I don't and that data has to count for something... they have a bunch of analysts on the payroll and they do whatever they do full time... they are not doing this on the side like I am.

I fully recognize the craziness of any attempt by me or others to criticize without the same information at our fingertips.  

However... that aside. Those things that they see, that we are not privy to, those things led to letting Nick Anderson go. Once they let Nick Anderson go for nothing and then they watched him strike out two batters an inning in the majors just like he was doing in AAA for us. The signing of Joey Gallo for millions and other things just didn't work out. They won't get the benefit of the doubt from me on these types of decisions because I know and THEY KNOW... they get it wrong sometimes.

I insist on letting the players make the decisions for them but that's all I can do is insist.  

On Camargo... I have no idea what he can do... his numbers are not that impressive in St. Paul but they called him up for whatever reason and didn't play him for whatever reason.

I didn't call him up... they did. He's here now and the guy in front of him has an OPS of .514. 

No doubt that try something else is for the White Sox and A's. However... replacing a vet who isn't playing very well... that's for the Twins, Yankees, Orioles, Gaurdians, Mariners, Astros. Royals, Braves, Phillies, Brewers, Cards, Dodgers, Padres.

How do you replace a vet who isn't playing very well. You try something else. 😉

[Jocko87]

38 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

I get that... Believe me I understand that they have access to data that you and I don't and that data has to count for something... they have a bunch of analysts on the payroll and they do whatever they do full time... they are not doing this on the side like I am.

I fully recognize the craziness of any attempt by me or others to criticize without the same information at our fingertips.  

However... that aside. Those things that they see, that we are not privy to, those things led to letting Nick Anderson go. Once they let Nick Anderson go for nothing and then they watched him strike out two batters an inning in the majors just like he was doing in AAA for us. The signing of Joey Gallo for millions and other things just didn't work out. They won't get the benefit of the doubt from me on these types of decisions because I know and THEY KNOW... they get it wrong sometimes.

I insist on letting the players make the decisions for them but that's all I can do is insist.  

On Camargo... I have no idea what he can do... his numbers are not that impressive in St. Paul but they called him up for whatever reason and didn't play him for whatever reason.

I didn't call him up... they did. He's here now and the guy in front of him has an OPS of .514. 

No doubt that try something else is for the White Sox and A's. However... replacing a vet who isn't playing very well... that's for the Twins, Yankees, Orioles, Gaurdians, Mariners, Astros. Royals, Braves, Phillies, Brewers, Cards, Dodgers, Padres.

How do you replace a vet who isn't playing very well. You try something else. 😉

The legend of Nick Anderson is not the miss you may think.  He's never been a two K an inning guy.  Decent major leaguer, but we need to get used to our former friends making the bigs.

You are stretching here, bringing up names like Helman and Holland and Kiersey would mean them leaping over Martin and Lee and Miranda.

If you have a vet who isn't playing well, you don't replace him with a kid you know won't play well and who might take out someone's knee.

No deserving player is losing out on playing time for any of these vets.  Including Farmer.  Injuries have only helped push off hard decisions.