Block buster trade

[tony&rodney]

49 minutes ago, TopGunn#22 said:

BBTV is a decent gauge to propose a trade that is far more reasonable than some guy posting a Polanco (8.8 value) for value for Logan Gilbert trade a (73.9 value).  

Royce Lewis is up to 74, Varland up to 21.4, Gilbert has dropped to 65.9, and Kirby is now 91.1. Meanwhile, Edward Cabrera has risen to 15.8 from 7.8 while our guys Larnach and Winder have fallen to 2 or 3 something. Just last offseason Larnach was over 30. I agree the site is interesting and can be looked over. However, the trades on the site MOSTLY display a severe home team bias in their suggestions. The numbers jump all over the place from month to month in the offseason. Recently, Lewis was in the 40s and Varland was 4.5 I believe. Right now a trade of Luis Castillo, Logan Gilbert, and Emerson Hancock for Royce Lewis and Griffin Jax favors Seattle. 

The conversations on trades and the exchanges of ideas are always good. I really enjoy all of your examples and look them over. My point about BTV is that one can pretty much do the same thing by having some knowledge of another team's goal and needs. This is why some (not me) suggest that Jeffers would be an attractive trade piece for Miami or Tampa Bay but not Milwaukee. 

I hope I don't give anyone stomach acid issues by including Lewis in the first paragraph. The Twins are not mentioned on any national sites as being a good team to fit the needs of another team in trades. This is more a weakness of the writers than reality. Seattle has been mentioned quite a bit on TD. Some have suggested that neither Gilbert nor Kirby are available under any circumstances. If you were running Seattle, would you trade either pitcher for Lewis? When I think about it, I think Seattle would be wise to sign Tim Anderson for around $10M. Then again, I'm also still hoping Falvey finds a way to pry one of those guys to Minnesota.

[DocBauer]

This is just my thoughts, and not directed at anyone or any post in particular, just my opinions.

1} Jeffers is a good game caller and solid defensive catcher. Not elite, but good. The defensive metrics, even as they are questioned by some, dictate he's good. His throwing greatly improved, sitting around 30% caught stealing for a chunk of the year before slipping in to the mid 20's at the end. And I've been watching him behind the plate since he debuted. He's worked hard, he's gotten better, and he's good. 

2} Jeffers was drafted as a bat first catcher who was smart and willing to put in the work to be better. He hit in college. He hit in the minors. He hit when promoted...arguably early...in 2020. He flashed here and there and still showed some power, but had a disappointing and sometimes injury affected 2021 and 2022. He worked really hard in the offseason and during ST to get his bat going. And he did, and in a pretty big way. So why do some expect a huge regression from a bat first guy who seemed to get his bat cranked up last year? And remember, he had less than 600 ML AB entering 2023. 

3} I get trading away good players to fill holes on the team, especially if you have depth at a position. It's just being smart, especially when you are a mid-market or small market team looking for an edge and can't afford $200M payrolls. But having a good catcher who is a good bat is GOLD in MLB. I would absolutely NOT be trading Jeffers at this time. Since I think he's going to continue to be a good offensive producer, maybe a year or so from now...when he's still pretty young...and other catchers in the system are ready, or close.

4} Catcher in baseball are like QB in the NFL. If I ran an NFL team, I'd be drafting a QB in some round, at least every other year. Not to replace my hopefully great starter, but to keep a good backup option and to be able to trade them to other QB hungry teams for higher draft selections to build and deepen my club. I do wish the Twins were a bit more aggressive in selecting catchers, or looking to Latin America for options as well. But they haven't ignored the position either. Williams and Isola turned out to be really nice hitters for backstops, but they just aren't very good catchers. But they've drafted 5 catchers in the 2021-22 drafts and have signed a couple foreign kids, one of whom, Ricardo Oliver at Ft Myers, looks very promising. (probably a better CF now than catcher, but let's cross our fingers). Winkel, Cardenas and Cossetti are off to good starts in their pro careers. Nate Baez has been slowed initially by injuries, but is a fantastic athlete for the position and offers a ton of potential, though he's rough around the edges and is going to need a few years. But even in limited action, he's shown offensive potential. Unfortunately, Dillon Tatum, at Ft Myers, hasn't hit a lick since being drafted. But again, they aren't exactly ignoring the position. They just haven't been investing any top of the draft picks on the spot.

I think we're damn lucky to have a good catcher with a strong bat in Jeffers, and I don't expect any sort of major regression. (each player is year to year so there is usually normal fluctuation). I get moving good players...especially before they get really expensive...to round out your roster. But you also need to keep as many good players as you can. And good hit/powerful catchers don't grow on trees. I wouldn't move him unless someone made a heck of a deal that I just couldn't pass up. 

[Riverbrian]

1 hour ago, tony&rodney said:

Is this a call for Vladdy's son?

Oh Yeah... That's the type of bat I'd like to see the Twins add. 

I've heard the rumors... Sorry... Rumours with it involving Toronto. I've heard the rumours of Bichette and Vlad Jr as possible trades. Don't understand why Toronto would move either of them... perhaps moving money for a run at Ohtani... but Oh Yeah... Vlad Jr. is the type of bat I want but we probably couldn't fit him into the budget. 

What could you give them in return? When I look at that Jays roster... Offense is the primary need and offense is what they would give up.  

[tony&rodney]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

Oh Yeah... That's the type of bat I'd like to see the Twins add. 

I've heard the rumors... Sorry... Rumours with it involving Toronto. I've heard the rumours of Bichette and Vlad Jr as possible trades. Don't understand why Toronto would move either of them... perhaps moving money for a run at Ohtani... but Oh Yeah... Vlad Jr. is the type of bat I want but we probably couldn't fit him into the budget. 

What could you give them in return? When I look at that Jays roster... Offense is the primary need and offense is what they would give up.  

I have thought of Vladdy but cannot for the life of me imagine what Toronto would be thinking. So I leave it go.

[Doctor Gast]

10 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

baseballtradevalues should never be considered as anything other than what it is. Imperfection in an imperfect world. 

However... before you dismiss it. Next trade that happens... reproduce it in BBTV and the value won't be that far off.

Each trade that happens... reproduce it. You'll be surprised how frequently the values align.  

BBTV is pretty impressive. I was my usual skeptical self originally. Now... I frequent the site.   

BTW... I agree Jeffers won't get us Burnes because Milwaukee doesn't need Jeffers.

Jeffers Value though would net Burnes.   

I agree with you Riverbrian that BTV is not perfect but gives you a ballpark idea. BTV can be off on some players but in general they're pretty close & I like to use them. Even real time trade don't match up depending how motivated they are to sell or buy or they were going to DFA some players anyway so they were willing to overpay to get a desired player and sometimes the FO is just dumb.

Still for every deal I accept I decline 10 because they don't line up to what I feel the team needs.

[Doctor Gast]

8 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

I hope I don't give anyone stomach acid issues by including Lewis in the first paragraph. The Twins are not mentioned on any national sites as being a good team to fit the needs of another team in trades. This is more a weakness of the writers than reality. Seattle has been mentioned quite a bit on TD. Some have suggested that neither Gilbert nor Kirby are available under any circumstances. If you were running Seattle, would you trade either pitcher for Lewis? When I think about it, I think Seattle would be wise to sign Tim Anderson for around $10M. Then again, I'm also still hoping Falvey finds a way to pry one of those guys to Minnesota.

IMO SEA won't trade Gilbert or Kirby, unless they sign Ohtani or Yoshinobu Yamamoto, & even then they won't trade Gilbert or Kirby unless there's a major overpay. I wouldn't trade Lewis because of the intangibles he brings to the Twins. 

[Riverbrian]

2 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

I agree with you Riverbrian that BTV is not perfect but gives you a ballpark idea. BTV can be off on some players but in general they're pretty close & I like to use them. Even real time trade don't match up depending how motivated they are to sell or buy or they were going to DFA some players anyway so they were willing to overpay to get a desired player and sometimes the FO is just dumb.

Still for every deal I accept I decline 10 because they don't line up to what I feel the team needs.

If folks do what I suggest.

IF they reproduce trades as they happen. They'll see it. 

If they don't. They won't see it. 

[Doctor Gast]

I'd like to clarify that I like Jeffers, he's hard working and that he made a significant improvement this last season. I believe the Twins made a rash decision on banking on Jeffers to be the Twins present & future catcher, not based on his potential but because they like him. And just like the Braves wanting to upgrade to a more defensive catcher that can hit, that doesn't mean that Contreras was a terrible catcher only that he advanced as far as he could with the Braves & they wanted more, So I'm not saying that Jeffers is a terrible catcher only that he advanced as high defensively as his tools & the Twins can take him & we need more.

I don't want to trade Jeffers only to obtain a frontline SP only. We need a future elite defensive catcher to replace Jeffers that when Vazquez is gone he can step right in (that's the point of this thread). It'll work wonders for Carmargo to be mentored by Vazquez but IMO Carmargo isn't ready to be a backup MLB catcher nor does he have catching in his blood to be our future primary catcher, that's where the future elite catcher comes in. Still 2 yrs under Vazquez mentoring, Carmargo will surprise a few people.

Getting off subject a little but addressing what has been texted. That the Twins solution to fix a problem is to get a big bat via draft, trade, waivers or FA. IMO we have a great line-up, granted that some need to fully recover from injuries (Buxton, Correa, Miranda, Kiriloff & Polanco to name a few but nothing serious). The Problem with our offense isn't the players it's the hitting philosophy. A philosophy that thought they could help Sano, Sanchez, Galo & many others but has instead hindered them. Once we change the philosophy of hitting a HR on every hittable pitch then we'll see an improvement on strike-outs and hitting in clutch situations.

[TopGunn#22]

A story out of theheavy.com says Blake Snell desperately wants to pitch for his hometown Seattle Mariners.  Seattle already has a TON of SP so if they were to sign Snell they could easily trade TWO SP !!  Snell, Castillo, Kirby, Gilbert, R. Ray, Woo, Miller, and Marco Gonzalez.  That's EIGHT SP. 

But Seattle would want a bat that would instantly make their lineup better.  A Brooks Lee type of prospect just isn't that guy right now.  Even with some of the young hitters the Reds have, none of those young guys--De La Cruz, Steer, CES, Benson, McClain, Noveli Marte, Friedl, just aren't there yet either.  I could see Seattle parting with a young pitcher for Juan Soto, playing a season with Soto hitting 3rd their lineup and then seeing how the season goes and if Soto would agree to a fat extension to remain in Seattle.  

[tony&rodney]

2 hours ago, TopGunn#22 said:

But Seattle would want a bat that would instantly make their lineup better.

Kirilloff? Kepler? Polanco? Lewis? Do you think Seattle has any interest in any Twin?

I commented elsewhere that Tim Anderson would be a good pickup for the Mariners.

[darin617]

On 11/30/2023 at 11:13 AM, TopGunn#22 said:

Nicely put Riverbrian.  Great insights.  It's the classic sell high scenario.  In either case, I'm comfortable with Camargo as our backup catcher.  

What if...The Twins offered Jeffers 33.3 value to the Marlins for Alcantara 15.3 and Cabrera 8.5  26.1 value.  

The Marlins would still have a rotation of Jesus Luzardo, Eury Perez, Braxton Garrett, Trevor Rodgers, and Max Meyer.  And they'd have their catcher of the future.  If they balked at Alcantara how about Trevor Rogers 17.4 and Max Meyer 16.7?  I'd throw Thielbar in (2.9 value).  

One guy...Jeffers could plug the rotations holes left by Gray and Maeda.  To your point, that is the value of catching.  If you can catch AND hit a little, you're GOLDEN.  

Do you sell high?  This is what makes or breaks front offices.  It's such a crap shoot.  If Jeffers hits .285 with 24 HR's in 2024 somebody (either the Twins or Marlins) has a HECK of a player.  But how about a Twins rotation of Lopez, Alcantara, Cabrera, Ryan, Ober and Paddack?  OR...Lopez, Trevor Rogers, Ryan, Ober, Max Meyer and Paddack?  In these trade scenarios Varland has moved to fortify an impressive bullpen with a REALLY GOOD rotation.  At the cost of Jeffers with Vasquez and Camargo behind the plate I do this in a heartbeat.  

Sandy Alcantara will miss all of 2024. Great talent for sure but I can't see the Twins paying a guy 9.3M to not play in 2024. It could be a great idea if the Twins weren't so cheap.

[Doctor Gast]

Here's a trade I really like that I offered that I'd like to share with you guys.

https://www.baseballtradevalues.com/trades/151948

Twins have their catching depth vastly improved & Kepler is moved

NYY have 2 OFers that they'd really like

CO got a good veteran catcher they need with a future catcher

IMO a very good win/win/win

[jorgenswest]

3 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

.Here's a trade I really like that I offered that I'd like to share with you guys.

https://www.baseballtradevalues.com/trades/151948

Twins have their catching depth vastly improved & Kepler is moved

NYY have 2 OFers that they'd really like

CO got a good veteran catcher they need with a future catcher

IMO a very good win/win/win

How is it a win for the Rockies? They give up their catcher of the future who is a global top 100 prospect and has an ETA of 2024 for a catcher at 31 with two years of control and wRC+ of 61, 92 and 58 over the last three seasons. Vazquez has been better in each of those seasons. The catching prospect they get in the deal probably won’t remain at catcher.

It might be a deal the Twins would make if they can trade Vazquez and his full contract. They get a similar player in Trevino and a lottery ticket that Ramirez can stay at catcher. The Twins can spend on a starter with the savings on Kepler and Vazquez.

Would you do this deal? It can’t happen until they find a taker for Vazquez and his full contract.

[Doctor Gast]

1 hour ago, jorgenswest said:

How is it a win for the Rockies? They give up their catcher of the future who is a global top 100 prospect and has an ETA of 2024 for a catcher at 31 with two years of control and wRC+ of 61, 92 and 58 over the last three seasons. Vazquez has been better in each of those seasons. The catching prospect they get in the deal probably won’t remain at catcher.

It might be a deal the Twins would make if they can trade Vazquez and his full contract. They get a similar player in Trevino and a lottery ticket that Ramirez can stay at catcher. The Twins can spend on a starter with the savings on Kepler and Vazquez.

Would you do this deal? It can’t happen until they find a taker for Vazquez and his full contract.

To trade Vazquez would devastate our catching core & defeat the whole purpose of having Vazquez mentoring Romo, Carmargo & Carrigg.

Romo isn't in the top 100, I don't know where he sits right now and CO needs more a good veteran (Trevino was an all star & GG)  than a prospect. Agustin Ramirez has work to do but he's young & has the tools to be a good defensive catcher. Why he may not stay at catcher is that Austin Wells is blocking him & Ramirez is a slugger so they'd like to get his bat in the line-up. The fact that Ramirez is a slugger plays well at Coors.

[old nurse]

On 11/30/2023 at 4:22 PM, Riverbrian said:

I read that Arozarena was being shopped. Contact, Power and Speed. 3 Years of Control. That's the type of bat that I'd like to add.  

 

Jeffers and Canterino for Arozarena?

BBTV says the numbers work. 

 

 

Tampa’s MO on trades seems to be pre arb players or near MLB ready prospects. It would have to be a 3 team trade with Jeffers going elsewhere   It would probably also include another pitching prospect that people would go “why him” and their answer would be great reliever in the shuttle system 

[jorgenswest]

2 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

To trade Vazquez would devastate our catching core & defeat the whole purpose of having Vazquez mentoring Romo, Carmargo & Carrigg.

Romo isn't in the top 100, I don't know where he sits right now and CO needs more a good veteran (Trevino was an all star & GG)  than a prospect. Agustin Ramirez has work to do but he's young & has the tools to be a good defensive catcher. Why he may not stay at catcher is that Austin Wells is blocking him & Ramirez is a slugger so they'd like to get his bat in the line-up. The fact that Ramirez is a slugger plays well at Coors.

Romo was ranked 80 by BA and 84 by MLB entering last season.

Ramirez is ranked 24 in the Yankee system with field grades of 40 from both Fangraphs and MLB. From MLB pipeline “Whether Ramirez can remain at catcher is another question. He lacks quickness and soft hands, so his receiving, framing and blocking skills are very much works in progress. He does have solid arm strength and keeps the running game in check but some scouts believe he's destined for first base.”

Do you value Vazquez more than Trevino so you wouldn’t make the deal absent the Rockies? I just can’t see why the Rockies trade the future for two years of a catcher in the decline phase of his career.

[ashbury]

20 minutes ago, jorgenswest said:

I just can’t see why the Rockies trade the future for two years of a catcher in the decline phase of his career.

To let us Sell High, duh. 

[Doctor Gast]

5 hours ago, jorgenswest said:

Romo was ranked 80 by BA and 84 by MLB entering last season.

Ramirez is ranked 24 in the Yankee system with field grades of 40 from both Fangraphs and MLB. From MLB pipeline “Whether Ramirez can remain at catcher is another question. He lacks quickness and soft hands, so his receiving, framing and blocking skills are very much works in progress. He does have solid arm strength and keeps the running game in check but some scouts believe he's destined for first base.”

Do you value Vazquez more than Trevino so you wouldn’t make the deal absent the Rockies? I just can’t see why the Rockies trade the future for two years of a catcher in the decline phase of his career.

Last season is last season, where is he ranked now? I'd really like to know? All I can find is not ranked. Could you please find that out for me I'd really like to know.

Let's put things into perspective. Balazovik (our #1 pitching prospect) made it into the top 100 prospect list, would I trade him a year after he came off of it, for 2yrs of a former all-star SP with awards at the same trade value?  You better believe it, I'd trade him while he was on the list and I did on BTV. Why? Because we were short on veteran pitching. Would I trade E Rod a year after he's off the 100 prospect list if we needed a CFer? Yes I would.

#1 thing I look for in a 2B man is range, because everything else can be learned #1 thing I look for in catching is strong arm because everything else can be learned, Ramirez has a strong arm, although I greatly prize quickness most pro catchers lack it because many don't value it especially if you can hit HRs. Julien improved his hands some while in MLB. Ramirez has at least 2yrs to improve his hands along with everything else.

Again some scouts  predict that Ramirez won't stick at catcher just like a lot of scouts predicted that Endy Rodriguez wouldn't stick at catcher because he had Henry Davis ahead of him, Ramirez has Austin Wells ahead of him & he's a slugger so they want his bat in the line-up so put him at 1B. Ramirez is 24th in the NYY prospect list. Where is Carmargo? He didn't make the Twins top 35, there were 4 or 5 catchers on the honorable mention list, he wasn't one of them. Again Ramirez is a slugger that'll play well at Coors.

Would I want Trevino? absolutely not, why? #1 he's a Yankee #2 We have 2 good veteran catchers. Would CO? Although they've been bad for years, they've had pride refusing to rebuild when everybody wanted them to. CO catchers have been terrible. So I'd say CO would want former all-star, GG Trevino. Lets put things into perspective Trevino has 2 yrs left - Jeffers has 3, Jeffer is projected at 1.6 WAR with 85 games, Trevino is projected at 1.8 with 19 less games. If Trevino plays significantly more games at CO, away from the noise at NY & their hitting philosophy plus hitting at friendly Coors field, his WAR will be considerably higher.

CO will have many opportunities to draft a high college catcher. Please read everything & put everything into context. 

 

[jorgenswest]

49 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

Last season is last season, where is he ranked now? I'd really like to know? All I can find is not ranked. Could you please find that out for me I'd really like to know.

Let's put things into perspective. Balazovik (our #1 pitching prospect) made it into the top 100 prospect list, would I trade him a year after he came off of it, for 2yrs of a former all-star SP with awards at the same trade value?  You better believe it, I'd trade him while he was on the list and I did on BTV. Why? Because we were short on veteran pitching. Would I trade E Rod a year after he's off the 100 prospect list if we needed a CFer? Yes I would.

#1 thing I look for in a 2B man is range, because everything else can be learned #1 thing I look for in catching is strong arm because everything else can be learned, Ramirez has a strong arm, although I greatly prize quickness most pro catchers lack it because many don't value it especially if you can hit HRs. Julien improved his hands some while in MLB. Ramirez has at least 2yrs to improve his hands along with everything else.

Again some scouts  predict that Ramirez won't stick at catcher just like a lot of scouts predicted that Endy Rodriguez wouldn't stick at catcher because he had Henry Davis ahead of him, Ramirez has Austin Wells ahead of him & he's a slugger so they want his bat in the line-up so put him at 1B. Ramirez is 24th in the NYY prospect list. Where is Carmargo? He didn't make the Twins top 35, there were 4 or 5 catchers on the honorable mention list, he wasn't one of them. Again Ramirez is a slugger that'll play well at Coors.

Would I want Trevino? absolutely not, why? #1 he's a Yankee #2 We have 2 good veteran catchers. Would CO? Although they've been bad for years, they've had pride refusing to rebuild when everybody wanted them to. CO catchers have been terrible. So I'd say CO would want former all-star, GG Trevino. Lets put things into perspective Trevino has 2 yrs left - Jeffers has 3, Jeffer is projected at 1.6 WAR with 85 games, Trevino is projected at 1.8 with 19 less games. If Trevino plays significantly more games at CO, away from the noise at NY & their hitting philosophy plus hitting at friendly Coors field, his WAR will be considerably higher.

CO will have many opportunities to draft a high college catcher. Please read everything & put everything into context. 

 

I don’t believe prospect rankings are out for this winter. The most recent listed in baseball reference is the 2023 that I cited.

If somehow the Rockies would take this deal, I am all in. Like the Pirates had no interest in trading Rodriguez unless blown away, I really doubt the Rockies would trade Romo. They both have the same 55 potential ceiling in their field scouting score on Fangraphs. 

[Doctor Gast]

15 minutes ago, jorgenswest said:

I don’t believe prospect rankings are out for this winter. The most recent listed in baseball reference is the 2023 that I cited.

If somehow the Rockies would take this deal, I am all in. Like the Pirates had no interest in trading Rodriguez unless blown away, I really doubt the Rockies would trade Romo. They both have the same 55 potential ceiling in their field scouting score on Fangraphs. 

You are right that the '24 isn't out yet. This the MLB end of season '23 revision.

https://www.mlb.com/prospects/top100/

The big difference between Pirates Rodriguez & Romo is Rodiguez's bat. Scouting states that Romo's bat is not impactful.

Yet it's imposssible to guess what CO will do,

[jkcarew]

To believe these trade values for Jeffers would be to believe other teams value him more than the Twins do (or at least more than Rocco does). Rocco clearly valued Jeffers less as a catcher than he did Vasquez…playing Jeffers more than 150 innings less than Vasquez at the position…even despite Vasquez being a perpetual black hole offensively.

I realize Jeffers cost/control/age add to his trade value, but I don’t think it adds up to what is generally depicted in these proposals.

[David HK]

On 11/30/2023 at 11:58 PM, SteveLV said:

DG, whom are you targeting as an upgrade to Jeffers?  I am not opposed to exploring such a trade, but it is just a concept without another catcher to acquire.

Do you plan to keep Vasquez too, then?  He might be tough to trade with $20M due on his contract.

Hey, I see Garv-sauce is available! 😅

[Doctor Gast]

Under the suggestion of my friend TonyO I will post a more popular early version of a trade offer I made at BTV,

https://www.baseballtradevalues.com/trades/149730

I like this trade offer because it covered a lot of SEA & our needs & gave an upgrade to CO's catching prospect situation. Plus Romo & Veen are good friends.

Although Jorgenswest & I debated about the prior offer I posted here. I think one thing that we definitely agree upon is that Romo is a very good catcher. Romo & Carrigg are both very underrated because they are line drive hitters & not sluggers and IMO they both could be elite catchers. That's why I targeted them. I revised this offer because I believed the latter was more CO friendly, meeting their current need for a veteran catcher while keeplng their OF prospect Veen. & it could leave our SP trade options open. 

But the masses have spoken &  if CO concurs then so be it.

[TopGunn#22]

Doc, I like this trade more than the other one.  I'm Tony0 on BBTV and as I commented there, while I hate giving up Julien, getting a young SP like Miller from Seattle is key in giving up a talent like Julien.  And getting a solid young catching prospect as well as an OF prospect is excellent.  The SS is relatively unnecessary as we're stocked at SS.  Maybe an arm would be a better 4th piece but I'd do this trade even with the Carrigg.  

[jorgenswest]

12 hours ago, jkcarew said:

To believe these trade values for Jeffers would be to believe other teams value him more than the Twins do (or at least more than Rocco does). Rocco clearly valued Jeffers less as a catcher than he did Vasquez…playing Jeffers more than 150 innings less than Vasquez at the position…even despite Vasquez being a perpetual black hole offensively.

I realize Jeffers cost/control/age add to his trade value, but I don’t think it adds up to what is generally depicted in these proposals.

I think playoff use showed who he valued. During the season it shifted to a 50/50 split. It is hard to argue with that when they were one of few teams that only needed two catchers on the season. 

[Doctor Gast]

On 11/30/2023 at 12:34 PM, Riverbrian said:

As for your trade idea with Marlins... I can't speak for the Marlins but I can't see them or anyone sending two starting pitchers over in a deal. I know they are well stocked but teams need to be well stocked to get through a season. You never know who will be left standing come playoff time but again I can't speak for the Marlins.

It's unbelievable how MIA after losing Lopez in trade, Meyer, Rogers, Alcantra & Perez to injuries & yet was able to make it to the post season with poor offense & defense. 

Yeah it would be nice to have a catcher pipeline to develop catchers & have some left over to trade. 

[KBJ1]

Definitely agree that developing catching (& pitching) needs to be emphasized in the Twins system more.

All we seem to do is draft SS. We need to draft outside the box more often.

Lest we forget that Aaron Judge - not a prototypical athlete- was passed by by ALL 32 teams twice!

If we have to trade Jeffers for pitching, so be it. Roll with Vasquez & Carmago and trade Kepler & Polanco for immediate bullpen help & catching prospects. Then sign Gurriel to fill that gaping RH power void in LF with the freed up salary.

This addresses our 2 major weaknesses while still maintaining a solid catching defense. 

[Cory Engelhardt]

28 minutes ago, KBJ1 said:

Definitely agree that developing catching (& pitching) needs to be emphasized in the Twins system more.

All we seem to do is draft SS. We need to draft outside the box more often.

Lest we forget that Aaron Judge - not a prototypical athlete- was passed by by ALL 32 teams twice!

If we have to trade Jeffers for pitching, so be it. Roll with Vasquez & Carmago and trade Kepler & Polanco for immediate bullpen help & catching prospects. Then sign Gurriel to fill that gaping RH power void in LF with the freed up salary.

This addresses our 2 major weaknesses while still maintaining a solid catching defense. 

Just to compare; Joe Nathan was a SS. So was Jacob DeGrom. And Michael Cuddyer. High School SS's can do a LOT of positions later on.

[Riverbrian]

1 hour ago, Doctor Gast said:

It's unbelievable how MIA after losing Lopez in trade, Meyer, Rogers, Alcantra & Perez to injuries & yet was able to make it to the post season with poor offense & defense. 

Yeah it would be nice to have a catcher pipeline to develop catchers & have some left over to trade. 

14 Different starters started for the Marlins in 2023. 

31 different pitchers threw the baseball for the Marlins in 2023. 

20 Different hitters stepped to the plate for the Marlins in 2023. 

 

[Doctor Gast]

On 11/30/2023 at 10:58 AM, nicksaviking said:

I think you're underselling the fact that they traded for catcher who could hit. They didn't take a step back offensively with the trade.

And we're only a month removed from the season. I don't understand how anyone watched the Twins last year and didn't think that the biggest issues with that team were on the offensive side of the equation. This team can't afford to lose offense, they need to improve it.

I think you're underselling the importance of defense at the catcher position & trying to sidetrack this thread. If the defense wasn't the deciding factor why go through all that trouble with a 3-way trade because Contreras was the more offensive catcher? When a successful organization like the Braves makes defense (that doesn't mean ignoring hitting) a priority in the premium position of catcher then the Twins need to take note.

 

I agree that the Twins need to improve their offense but a big bat isn't the answer. Twins have been drafting, signing and hoarding big bats, yet their answer is always another big bat. The Twins were 3rd in HRs last season, their focus on HRs has resulted for years SOs in clutch ABs, poor hitting in RISP, especially with the bases loaded, until Royce Lewis (who doesn't adhere to the Twins philosophy) showed up.

 

This FO together with their minions have said that Jake Cave is a great CF sub (which means a lot of time) Jorge Polanco is a great SS & Luis Arraez is a great 2B man. Their bat played well there but their glove definitely did not, they didn't take their defense at all into consideration. If no one stood up & contradicted the FO we would still have a Cave-ish type CF sub, Polanco would still play SS and Arraez would be playing 2B & we'd be competing with KC, CWS & DET for the cellar. Thanks to those who stood up, FO has changed their position by upgrading at CF sub, SS & traded Arraez for Lopez (upgrading SP). Those were the biggest reasons together with Lewis that we broke that winless PS game & ultimately series losing streak.

 

My point in this article is to provoke people to think & stop drinking the FO Kool-Aid. For us to win a WS with this team we need to upgrade our premium position catcher, change our hitting philosophy & maintain our pitching dominance.