Front Page: Twins High Impact Pitching Options Dwindling as Wheeler and Hamels Reach Agreements

[Cody Pirkl]

 

Probably have to get creative.  Collin McHugh and turn him back to a starter?  Hope for a Rick Porcello bounceback?  Sign Brett Anderson and Rich Hill and hope to get 25 combined starts?

I think the general consensus is that if they get creative and end up relying on converted relievers or bounceback guys the year after winning 101 games, their front office has failed. This was a prime year of free agency to get starting pitching help and starting pitching was the only true necessity we had. The front office said they'd go all in when it was clear the window is open, and it doesn't get any more open than now. We watched them do nothing at the deadline last year and wound up having a rookie with 28 major league innings starting game 2 in Yankee Stadium. If they bargain shop again this year, they either got ahead of themselves in terms of when they realistically thought they'd have to make good on their promise, or they flat out lied. Either way, they'll deserve all the criticism they get.

[The Wise One]

 

Offer Eddie Rosario and Brent Rooker to the Mets for noah syndergaard

That would be about half of what it needed. The other half would be two high ceiling prospects that the flaws are not yet known to the outside Twins world. Both would be pitchers of the future starting types like Canterino and Sands. It would be the potential of the last two rather than the first two that would get the deal done. Rooker would need to be replaced by another near ready prospect as there is some stiff named Alonso at 1B for the Mets and 2 outfielders are one too many

[laloesch]

 

 And even better, he's a potential clubhouse disaster given his past confrontations with players of color and the makeup of the rest of this team and the great chemistry they had last season. 

 

Source?

[laloesch]

 

The reason they are dwindling is because the Twins have no plans on signing anyone noteworthy. I anticipate another weak winter meeting and assume they will attempt to pick up pitchers who are on the downward trend like they normally do.

 

yep. I've come to terms with it myself. this is the Minnesota Twins they will sign NO free agents worth a darn.

[Twodogs]

I think right now, if the Twins had Castillo, or Syndergaard, would they be looking for packages to trade them for? I mean are the Twins shopping Berrios if the right package of minor Leaguers came along? I just don't see why, before a season starts, that a team would be shopping their frontline starting pitching? I mean I just dont get it. These teams are going to wait until they are mathematically eliminated from contention before looking to off load guys like that.

[rdehring]

 

The Twins need to focus on trades before their prospects expire.  Both Gonsalves and Stewart were top 100 prospects (Stewart peaked at #28 in 2015).  Now they are nowhere.  The previous regime was horrible with doing that.   I suspect that in 2015, they could have gotten something better for Stewart than they have received now.   Their window of contention is getting smaller; they better do something now before it is too late and the next top prospects also expire...

Like your thinking Thrylos.  I would be shocked if the FO wasn't already looking at who they will have to protect come November, 2020.  Makes a ton of sense to pick a couple of those players and move them this winter.  Whether that is part of a bigger deal or for prospects further away from being Rule 5 eligible isn't relevant.  What is important is not losing them a year from now.

[TFRazor]

 

Heard a mention this morning on ESPN that apparently he turned down more money from the ChiSox too. Big sigh of relief there

[TFRazor]

 

So basically we're going to end up replacing Pineda with a pitcher who was basically the same level as him last year, but at 3x the cost. And then the local media will pretend we actually signed an ace because he's a big name people have heard off. And even better, he's a potential clubhouse disaster given his past confrontations with players of color and the makeup of the rest of this team and the great chemistry they had last season. 

He's got confrontations with guys he felt like were hotdogging it. I don't think he cared what color they were.

[jhoffman]

Sign MadBum to a 5 year deal for 100 million with Twins buy out option for year 5 (if year 4 doesn't produce 150 innings or 30 starts).

Trade Rosario for an elite pitching prospect, and deal the elite pitching prospect (or one of ours) and Nick Gordan to the Rockies for Jon Gray. 

[Wax Kepler]

So Falvine are down to one candidate. One. By their own standards for offseason needs.

Ryu? But...

So the only realistic chance, at this point, is signing Bumgarner, and hoping he performs like he's 5 years younger.

... what about Ryu? I thought you were leading to him as the "one candidate". I think the Twins net him soon. 2.32 last year, I'll be very happy if he's 3.32 with us in 2020.

 

I'm still holding out hope for Strasburg, too. $200M

[dex8425]

 

I would rather the Twins focus on Ryu and then Pineda. Not a fan of MadBum given his road numbers and his post injury numbers overall.

The fact that Ryu has pitched 180 innings (and never hit 200 innings) only twice in the last seven years is pretty dang concerning. Same with Pineda. At least with Madbum you know you're going to get 30 starts from him. I would disagree; I'd much rather have Madbum than either of those two over a 3-4 year deal. 

[dex8425]

 

Why would that hurt?   None of the three was a factor in the postseason when the Twins went belly up (again). Syndergaard would have helped them more than any of them did...

I personally think I would do that trade at this point. However, that's a steep price because Balazovic is our #2 pitching prospect, Buxton's ceiling is legitimately HOF, and Trevor Larnach is almost mlb ready and raked last year. We'd be counting on Kiriloff to take Kepler's spot in RF asap. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Or it could be a true statement.

And I listed 3 ways it could be a true statement, but still not mean that Wheeler turned down a better offer.

 

When something like this is so vague, and makes everyone involved look better, I think we should be pretty suspicious.

[Otto von Ballpark]

That said, even if the 72-win White Sox legitimately offered more that $118 mil, and Wheeler instead chose $118 mil from the 81-win Phillies, that also doesn't mean a $118+ mil offer from the 101-win Twins would have been doomed to fail too. But the Twins didn't make such an offer -- reports seem solid that their offer was 5/100.

 

I don't necessarily care, as long as the Twins still get quality pitching at fair cost this winter (and said pitching performs as good or better than Wheeler), but I'm also not prepared to say losing out on Wheeler was out of the Twins hands either.

[howieramone2]

 

That said, even if the 72-win White Sox legitimately offered more that $118 mil, and Wheeler instead chose $118 mil from the 81-win Phillies, that also doesn't mean a $118+ mil offer from the 101-win Twins would have been doomed to fail too. But the Twins didn't make such an offer -- reports seem solid that their offer was 5/100.

 

I don't necessarily care, as long as the Twins still get quality pitching at fair cost this winter (and said pitching performs as good or better than Wheeler), but I'm also not prepared to say losing out on Wheeler was out of the Twins hands either.

I'm prepared to say losing out on Wheeler was out of the Twins hand. A happy wife is more important than a million dollars here and there.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

I'm prepared to say losing out on Wheeler was out of the Twins hand. A happy wife is more important than a million dollars here and there.

 

especially when you already have many millions. I wouldn't argue there either. 

[Shaitan]

 

Estimated contracts are way low. Strasburg 25/year, lol.

I wish for Strasburg and Ryu. I hear the Twins'are willing to meet Ryu's asking price.

It's definitely a new era if the Twins sign a Boras client.

[Shaitan]

 

Just once, I’d like to see this franchise identify the guy the want and go after him aggressively. Pay the money it takes, instead of low-balling. Quit screwing around and getting cute. They need to quit waiting for things to “play out,” and pinching pennies.

If you’re not willing to spend any money, why should your fans? If not after a 100-win season with overall payroll numbers that Yankees and Red Sox invest into their urinal cakes....then when?

It’s not over yet, but I’m getting less confident with every player that comes off the board.

I agree with your first 1.5 sentences, but where is the evidence that they are "being cute" and "low-balling"?

 

Real evidence, not "somebody said the Twins offered this to Darvish 2 years ago." 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

It's definitely a new era if the Twins sign a Boras client.

Marwin Gonzalez is a Boras client.

 

Mike Pelfrey was a Boras client too, and I'm sure there have been others on the Twins.

 

If you mean, sign a "top" Boras client, well, the Twins record FA deal is still Ervin Santana at 4/54, so  they haven't made a deal with any agents or agencies above that level.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I'm prepared to say losing out on Wheeler was out of the Twins hand. A happy wife is more important than a million dollars here and there.

 

 

especially when you already have many millions. I wouldn't argue there either. 

 

If we trust the reports, all we know is that apparently Wheeler's wife was a deciding factor in choosing the 81-win Phillies over a comparable offer from the 72-win White Sox.

 

Unfortunately, that doesn't really tell us anything about how much of a factor she would have been if the 101-win Twins made a comparable offer.

[Wax Kepler]

The fact that Ryu has pitched 180 innings (and never hit 200 innings) only twice in the last seven years is pretty dang concerning. Same with Pineda. At least with Madbum you know you're going to get 30 starts from him. I would disagree; I'd much rather have Madbum than either of those two over a 3-4 year deal.

 

As far as injury history goes, Madbum was injured in a dirt bike accident and hasn't been the same. Idk that he trumps Ryu there.

 

I think the most recent season should weigh most heavily, and Ryu blows Madbum away. Anybody who throws 2.32 has figured something out. I don't care if it's the NL, that's still very good. I'll take 180 innings of that over 200 of Bumgarner's.

[howieramone2]

 

If we trust the reports, all we know is that apparently Wheeler's wife was a deciding factor in choosing the 81-win Phillies over a comparable offer from the 72-win White Sox.

 

Unfortunately, that doesn't really tell us anything about how much of a factor she would have been if the 101-win Twins made a comparable offer.

White Sox or Twins, I'm convinced it didn't much matter to the wife, she wanted to be close to her family. I don't understand it myself, but some people think family is more important than baseball.

[Otto von Ballpark]

White Sox or Twins, I'm convinced it didn't much matter to the wife, she wanted to be close to her family. I don't understand it myself, but some people think family is more important than baseball.

For those doubting the PR value of bringing up his wife's family, witness the scores of people, who don't know Zack Wheeler from Zach Morris, now extolling Wheeler's virtues as a family man. And all because he did the same thing that most other pro athletes do by signing the top offer from a contending team!

 

I don't mean to come off as too cynical -- I have no doubt that Wheeler was likely hoping to stay in that area. But he didn't exactly get tested on that point either in any meaningful way.

 

And it's irrelevant to the Twins if our top bid was only 5/100. I guarantee that Wheeler did not instruct the Twins to stop bidding at that amount.

[Battle ur tail off]

Thing is, the Vikings sure never have a problem getting the free agents they want. Regardless where they live or family lives etc. 

 

That's because if they decide they want someone, they pay top dollar and get them. Big difference when you are the top bidder vs someone halfway down the line. 

[Monkeypaws]

Safe to say that "targeting" and "acquiring" are entirely different things.

 

The Twins have been very astute at the former....

[jkcarew]

 

And it's irrelevant to the Twins if our top bid was only 5/100. I guarantee that Wheeler did not instruct the Twins to stop bidding at that amount.

But this infers that the Twins had an opportunity to counter. And we don't know that. Once the 'neighborhood' was established, it's absolutely feasible that the Wheeler camp would have shut things down rather than wait for a Twins offer of $120-125M only to use it to play (risky) games with the franchise with whom they had already decided they want to coexist over the next 5 years.

 

Even in the scenario where the Twins had the opportunity to counter, but refused to move...do we know if that was the FO or the Pohlads who declined? It would matter it terms of the direction some of these threads are going.

 

My only point being...we don't know. And we'll never know. Every deal that doesn't get done is a black hole of speculation. Of course, if the Twins had opened with $135M, then we probably don't need to speculate. Of course, I think that's what some are waiting to see from the Twins....if not, just for once.

[jkcarew]

 

Thing is, the Vikings sure never have a problem getting the free agents they want. Regardless where they live or family lives etc. 

 

That's because if they decide they want someone, they pay top dollar and get them. Big difference when you are the top bidder vs someone halfway down the line. 

I get that Ziggy seems good at projecting that persona. But it's completely apples/oranges vs the Twins scenario. Ziggy's payroll is pre-determined every year. There's a hard cap. It's just a matter of how he distributes the payroll. When the Vikings go out and get Cousins, it shows a willingness to gamble to achieve results...but it's not a financial gamble in any way/shape/form for Ziggy.

[Otto von Ballpark]

But this infers that the Twins had an opportunity to counter. And we don't know that. Once the 'neighborhood' was established, it's absolutely feasible that the Wheeler camp would have shut things down rather than wait for a Twins offer of $120-125M only to use it to play (risky) games with the franchise with whom they had already decided they want to coexist over the next 5 years.

 

Even if the Twins were willing to bid $118+ mil (not saying they were), but failed to do so, that's still on them. It wasn't out of their control as some might suggest -- part of a team's responsibility in these negotiations is making a high enough opening bid and staying engaged in the process.

 

And again, I don't particularly care that they lost out on Wheeler, as long as they still manage to acquire quality pitching this winter.

[USAFChief]

 

I get that Ziggy seems good at projecting that persona. But it's completely apples/oranges vs the Twins scenario. Ziggy's payroll is pre-determined every year. There's a hard cap. It's just a matter of how he distributes the payroll. When the Vikings go out and get Cousins, it shows a willingness to gamble to achieve results...but it's not a financial gamble in any way/shape/form for Ziggy.

Wait...the lack of a payroll cap makes it harder for the Twins to compete for free agents??

[howeda7]

 

Wait...the lack of a payroll cap makes it harder for the Twins to compete for free agents??

Absolutely, yes. In NFL FA, the total pie is only so big and the Vikings share is equal to everyone else's. The Yankees/Phillies can always offer a slice a little bigger than the Twins, no matter how big we cut it.