"Resting" players

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

2010 history. September 22 the Twins had just clinched the day before, had a comfortable lead and a record of 92-60, and Gardenhire started resting players to get them "fresh" for the playoffs, and let them "heal" from the little dings that they, and all teams, were now feeling from the long season, and took it them out of the rhythm that had gotten them there. They started the culture of losing (that seemed to go into 2011 and the 63-99 fiasco), finished the season 2-8, 0-3 in the ALDS - went 2-11 to end their season. 

Then again, in 2006 and 2009 Gardy's teams went down to the wire in the regular season, finishing strong, and got swept in the ALDS just the same...

[Danchat]

 

Rhythm of life. 

 

The ol' stay in rhythm and play all the time - or take time off to perform better. The player that gets too much rest says I need to play more and I'm out of rhythm. I would be hitting if only I would play every day. 

 

2010 history. September 22 the Twins had just clinched the day before, had a comfortable lead and a record of 92-60, and Gardenhire started resting players to get them "fresh" for the playoffs, and let them "heal" from the little dings that they, and all teams, were now feeling from the long season, and took it them out of the rhythm that had gotten them there. They started the culture of losing (that seemed to go into 2011 and the 63-99 fiasco), finished the season 2-8, 0-3 in the ALDS - went 2-11 to end their season. 

 

I don't think analytics considers human rhythms yet, do they? It seems to be a thing that has been happening for quite some time, though.

Or maybe they just ran into a really Yankees squad?
 

Plenty of teams in several different sports have tried resting their starters, and some have tried playing their starters in meaningless games with varying results. I just find it hard to believe that giving a player small amounts of rest could be a bad thing - especially since now some are wanting the Twins to have their players play through injuries, which seems like a poor idea to me.

[twinsnorth49]

Because we are human and need rest. And God created the Sabbath specifically for that reason.

And then created Sunday shopping.

[Krabby5]

I agree with the premise of resting players. The season, including spring training, is at least 7 months long. Players don't have weekends off like the rest of us. We can only imagine how relentless the grind is.

 

I have long entertained the idea that players should be given a little two-week vacation during the season to keep them fresh. While this isn't realistic, I think it would be healthy to get away from the game and come back refreshed.

 

How Baldelli has handled the team this year is fine with me. Gone are the days when the Jerry Terrells of the world hardly ever played.

Is this serious? They are playing BASEBALL for a living...BASEBALL. They get to get up every day and play baseball for big money. How awful that they never get weekends off. Lol. Holy F..

 

You do realize they get about 5 months off a year, right?

[yarnivek1972]

Is this serious? They are playing BASEBALL for a living...BASEBALL. They get to get up every day and play baseball for big money. How awful that they never get weekends off. Lol. Holy F..

 

You do realize they get about 5 months off a year, right?

Spring reporting dates are mid February. So, even for teams that don’t make the playoffs, that’s 4 1/2 at most.

[Mike Sixel]

Is this serious? They are playing BASEBALL for a living...BASEBALL. They get to get up every day and play baseball for big money. How awful that they never get weekends off. Lol. Holy F..

 

You do realize they get about 5 months off a year, right?

You think they don't work out don't the off season? It's a job, not a game.

[USAFChief]

 

12 of his 14 AL peers appear to be similarly inexperienced, excluding Bob Melvin, who has shown remarkable discipline this year in writing Robbie Grossman's name into the lineup seemingly as often as humanly possible, and Alex Cora, who has turned in a season that has gotten his boss fired.

Just to follow up on this...

 

As of this morning, no Twin has played in 140 games (Polanco leads with 139, Kepler is next with 131.)

 

There are 38 players in MLB with 140 or more games played. If we were to take that to 130 games, there are dozens more. 

 

And that ignores players like Lindor, who play every day, but who missed time due to the IL.

 

[Jham]

That would be quite the feat, for sure.

Maybe we tie for the division, but our broken down team has no pitchers left, so we just give our spot to the White Sox and Giolito agreeing that if the White Sox win they get the division but if they lose they're out and we get the wild card. predictably, they lose. Twins finish half a game back in second. In this scenario, 1 more win would have saved the season and a lot of confusion.

[SpicyGarvSauce]

If resting players is such a brilliant decision, how does someone like Adrianza get injured when he plays so sparingly and has essentially been resting 5-6 times a week? I understand the flukey-ness of injuries, to a certain extent, but it just goes to show that resting players doesn't necessarily mean guys will be more fresh and less likely to get injured.

[ashbury]

And that ignores players like Lindor, who play every day, but who missed time due to the IL.

Yeah, I was a bit gobsmacked by no-Polanco in yesterday's lineup. I guess the silver lining is that Ehire stepped in and took whatever injury bullet may have been destined for Jorge.

 

It looks for all the world as if Rocco has pushed all his chips in on this 3-game road series in Cleveland. But this is based on an assumption of optimal lineups (modulo the handedness of the opposing pitcher, in a few cases) in each of the three games. If we don't see that, then I don't know what to say. And staking a lot on any series is really risky for any number of reasons.

 

It's as if Rocco looked at the 1964 Phillies and decided that the solution was to pitch Bunning and Short and Mahaffey once every ten days each, down the stretch.

 

Withholding further judgement until after the weekend.

[jkcarew]

 

It looks for all the world as if Rocco has pushed all his chips in on this 3-game road series in Cleveland. But this is based on an assumption of optimal lineups (modulo the handedness of the opposing pitcher, in a few cases) in each of the three games. If we don't see that, then I don't know what to say. And staking a lot on any series is really risky for any number of reasons.

Maybe...but my sense is, he's been resting folks for the post-season. That his analytics department says (like Fangraphs)...don't worry, the math says 97% you're in. If he's been resting them for this series, he's done it in a highly questionable manner. He would (or should) have had Sano/Kepler, etc. getting reps leading up to this series. If they go in now, they go in cold. It's not like they've played a few games at the end of a spring training or have been on rehab assignments in the minors.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

it would be perfect Minnesota sports to see all the "rest days" along the way and blow this division by half a game or something.

 

 

That would be quite the feat, for sure.

 

It happened to the 1972 Red Sox!

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL/1972.shtml

 

So all we need is some kind of work stoppage over the next two and a half weeks...

[twinsnorth49]

If resting players is such a brilliant decision, how does someone like Adrianza get injured when he plays so sparingly and has essentially been resting 5-6 times a week? I understand the flukey-ness of injuries, to a certain extent, but it just goes to show that resting players doesn't necessarily mean guys will be more fresh and less likely to get injured.

It definitely means they will be more fresh, that’s completely illogical. Having a more rested and stronger body definitely helps to protect from injury, nobody said it guarantees it, that’s impossible.

 

It’s unreal people are actually arguing this point.

[Mike Sixel]

If resting players is such a brilliant decision, how does someone like Adrianza get injured when he plays so sparingly and has essentially been resting 5-6 times a week? I understand the flukey-ness of injuries, to a certain extent, but it just goes to show that resting players doesn't necessarily mean guys will be more fresh and less likely to get injured.

That's awful logic. I mean, people get in accidents when they aren't drunk, doesn't mean you don't not drive when drunk. Really, that's just terrible logic.

[Linus]

Have you seen the lineup for today? Rocco is outsmarting himself

[Twodogs]

I think a lot of the regular rest was to give the bench guys some pt here and there so as to be ready in case they might be needed. Can't sit those guys all year and expect them to be able to play well when someone goes down.

[Nine of twelve]

 

Unnecessarily resting your best players is stupid.

Necessarily doing so is smart.

[Nine of twelve]

 

I highly doubt an extra day off makes any difference whatsoever in how they feel, or function.

Do you have any data to support your very speculative assertion?

[USAFChief]

Do you have any data to support your very speculative assertion?

nope. Do you have any data to refute it?

 

The default through MLB history has been to keep your best players on the field while you can. I support that theory. I posted earlier in this thread an average of more than 3 players per team were essentially every day players this year, and that ignores those who play every day but have missed time through injury.

 

My personal theory is that Rocco's own inability to avoid injury, and then his chronic illness is overly influencing his management of playing time.

 

If they're healthy, and they're better than the bench alternative, play em.

 

And For the millionth time, obviously injury changes the equation.

[Nine of twelve]

 

I'd love to see any concrete data that supports any of these claims.

 

Honestly. If that's such a thing, it'd make for a great article.

 

 

Conversely, I'd like to see any concrete data that disproves it.

 

It certainly hasn't gotten the Twins to September healthy and rested. 

Chief, you made the initial assertion. The burden of proof is on you.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Chief, you made the initial assertion. The burden of proof is on you.

I think he made it in response to the general assertion that Rocco's resting has been beneficial this year.

 

Neither side really has the data needed to prevail in the debate. The 2019 Twins have done well, for sure, but it's not clear what role rest really played in that. Chief is right that there have been plenty of other successful teams throughout baseball history that didn't use this rest plan -- but that doesn't necessarily mean such a plan may not be optimal for the Twins personnel in 2019.

 

Let's just hope all the Twins starters play every game of a World Series run this year, so we can all claim our theories about rest are correct.

[Mike Sixel]

The default in baseball for years was that walks were weak by the hitter, that sacrifice bunts were awesome, that teams should play small ball and not strikeout, that players could party and not get much sleep, that off season workouts were unnecessary...... Rookies shouldn't play much, players should earn it, beanballs were good....

[notoriousgod71]

 

The default in baseball for years was that walks were weak by the hitter, that sacrifice bunts were awesome, that teams should play small ball and not strikeout, that players could party and not get much sleep, that off season workouts were unnecessary...... Rookies shouldn't play much, players should earn it, beanballs were good....

 

Maybe that's why players get hurt so much more often now than in the past because they are working out 12 months a year.

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

Maybe that's why players get hurt so much more often now than in the past because they are working out 12 months a year.

It's possible. Do we know they get hurt more? Other than pitchers who may be reaching the current limits of the body by thing so hard?

[old nurse]

 

nope. Do you have any data to refute it?

The default through MLB history has been to keep your best players on the field while you can. I support that theory. I posted earlier in this thread an average of more than 3 players per team were essentially every day players this year, and that ignores those who play every day but have missed time through injury.

My personal theory is that Rocco's own inability to avoid injury, and then his chronic illness is overly influencing his management of playing time.

If they're healthy, and they're better than the bench alternative, play em.

And For the millionth time, obviously injury changes the equation.

Rosario missed 20 days on the dl plus the hamstring.  Kepler has missed time with knee, elbow and what was labeled as illness. Buxton was out. Sano was out until May with the heel. Arraez did not come up  for good and beat out Schoop for the job until June, Cron s been on the dl with the thumb twice and it is still bothering him.  That leaves Polonco  Outside of catchers, 5 of the 7position palyers have had injuries, the seventh  got beat out. It is really hard to say that Baldelli is resting his players excessively when they almost all have been injured.

[notoriousgod71]

 

It's possible. Do we know they get hurt more? Other than pitchers who may be reaching the current limits of the body by thing so hard?

 

I would say yes since every new season sets a new record in for trips/days to the IL.

 

A lot of that may be roster manipulation since they switched it to 10 days but nobody can or does stay on the field anymore.

 

Unfortunately this website only goes back to 2015 but the trend is as expected.

 

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/disabled-list/2015/cumulative-player/

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Maybe that's why players get hurt so much more often now than in the past because they are working out 12 months a year.

Maybe, but there's literally no other option for modern ballplayers because the sport isn't littered with .650 OPS hitters and 87mph pitchers anymore.

 

I don't really understand how people fail to realize how inferior the game was in the past. Sure, the competition was great but players in the aggregate were vastly inferior.

[Riverbrian]

 

Maybe, but there's literally no other option for modern ballplayers because the sport isn't littered with .650 OPS hitters and 87mph pitchers anymore.

 

I don't really understand how people fail to realize how inferior the game was in the past. Sure, the competition was great but players in the aggregate were vastly inferior.

 

Pluck Babe Ruth out of 1927 and drop him straight into a game today and the first 90 mph slider he sees will make him immediately request to go back to 1927.  

 

We used to marvel at Brooks Robinson and we should he was amazing. However, there are multiple Brooks Robinson type defensive talents playing 3B today. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Pluck Babe Ruth out of 1927 and drop him straight into a game today and the first 90 mph slider he sees will make him immediately request to go back to 1927.  

 

We used to marvel at Brooks Robinson and we should he was amazing. However, there are multiple Brooks Robinson type defensive talents playing 3B today. 

Offensively, yes. But I think you're underselling Robinson a bit. Are players better defensively? Of course. But I think past defense translates much more to the modern game than offense, especially once you consider gear like cleats and gloves, never mind metric positioning.

 

But Robinson never faced an 88mph slider, never mind a 95mph fastball. Even if he did, it was once or twice, not five times in a row against a bullpen designed to exploit his handedness. Night after night after night for 162 games.

[Riverbrian]

 

Offensively, yes. But I think you're underselling Robinson a bit. Are players better defensively? Of course. But I think past defense translates much more to the modern game than offense, especially once you consider gear like cleats and gloves, never mind metric positioning.

 

But Robinson never faced an 88mph slider, never mind a 95mph fastball. Even if he did, it was once or twice, not five times in a row against a bullpen designed to exploit his handedness. Night after night after night for 162 games.

 

Agreed... I'll just add that you may not be considering the arm strength, which is at a whole new level across the diamond and it has to...  just to match the increased speed in the game. Scouts are not taking long looks at players who can't at least pick em and put em down a little bit. 

 

Defensively... Arenado and Chapman are as good as we have ever seen. 

 

On the next tier... Bregman and Machado will compare with anyone in the past. 

 

I'm not slamming Brooks... I never would. The athlete today is just at a whole new level.