"Resting" players

[Kelly Vance]

 

Next year, I hope Rocco (and the front office) recognizes the futility of "resting" players during the regular season.

Rocco has given players way too much scheduled time off, to what benefit? All you do is willingly hold your better players out of too many games.

It does little to nothing in terms of keeping them healthy, or "rested."

All it does is intentionally reduce the number of games played by your best lineup.

I don't understand how bystanders and spectators can look at a team that has been surprisingly strong all season, setting offensive records and mashing homers at a record clip and conclude that the manager is making a bad decision in resting players sometimes. The results show good management. In fact, one could say that the Twins have never had this kind of offensive production before. I give Rocco a lot of credit for this. 

 

You need a good bench over the course of a 162 game season. Bench players need to get played if they are going to be sharp enough to help off the bench. Not resting starters guarantees that they will wear down over the 162 game season and that reserves will be stale when called upon.

 

Rocco is right and his managing of his players is not the reason for the recent spate of injuries. I suspect had Rocco not been pro active in resting guys things would be a lot worse than they  are. 

[rileyroy]

I have been second guessing Rocco all season, then I look at the standings and shut up.

[ashbury]

At a keynote speech I attended, Terry Ryan once stated that he could think of many ballplayers who would hit .400, if MLB was played one game per week.

 

I took that to mean not only that the 162-game season is a grind, but some players are ground down worse than others. He wasn't saying everyone would hit .400, because conversely the pitchers would be better rested too. The grind is what levels down the competition, in other words.

 

(He wouldn't name names, of course, but I distinctly remember thinking the implication included Delmon.)

 

So I'm unwilling to second guess the manager too much on the choice of whom to rest, and when. There's a very good chance you could wring a little bit better performance out of a team with less rest, but also an increased chance of decreased performance, and there's no way to forecast which is which.

 

Also, apart from judgement, or analytics, the manager has access to info concerning the physical state of the players, that I never will.

[raindog]

I think people underestimate the toll of playing 6 games a week for 6 months. The human body is going to get worn down, and it's going to effect performance. I don't understand how anyone could be critical of players getting more rest than what they've traditionally gotten. Especially with the depth the Twins had most of the season. 

 

It's not going to prevent injuries. It will keep players fresh and improve performance. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Morneau even admitted to this during a broadcast early in the season. He said he wished this kind of rest-focused program was in place during his playing years because he wore himself down and underperformed the second half of most seasons.

 

And, looking at the data, Justin isn't just feeding us a line. His career second half OPS is .075 lower than his first half OPS.

 

And yikes, it gets worse the more you drill down. Here are his OPS numbers by month: .849, .912, .800, .881, .777, .752.

 

Morneau was an average player when the Twins needed him most.

You and Morneau might be right, but I'm not sure the data is too meaningful.

 

Morneau's best season -- 2010 -- he didn't play in August or September. 2009, he had a specific back injury that he tried to play through in August and September, etc. I wonder how much those events can skew things?

 

And what's a normal variation in career half-season splits? Cuddyer is +.025 in the 2nd half for his career, Jacque Jones +.049. Kubel is -.036. Mauer and Hunter are pretty much even (less than .010 difference). From Morneau's "similar batters" list at B-Ref, contemporary Prince Fielder is +.025, Adrian Gonzalez +.042, Adam LaRoche +.071, and Aubrey Huff +.069. Thome is -.028, Willingham -.046.

 

Of course, every player is different too.

[Rosterman]

I used to get mad when the Twins would tally out the "B-squad" for a day game. Like, you don't want to give your pitcher a chance to win?

 

If you take the lead, especially now, or if the game is a total blowout, you can substitute guys.

 

But when going head-to-head with a best team (unless you don't care to lose - and some folly to that - often wonder why a team puts their best pitcher against the other team's best pitcher, why not worst against best) you field the best lineup posible. 

 

Until you clinch, now, you are playing PLAYOFF GAMES. Every game it important. If you don't win, you go home...and get plenty of rest.

[yarnivek1972]

You and Morneau might be right, but I'm not sure the data is too meaningful.

 

Morneau's best season -- 2010 -- he didn't play in August or September. 2009, he had a specific back injury that he tried to play through in August and September, etc. I wonder how much those events can skew things?

 

And what's a normal variation in career half-season splits? Cuddyer is +.025 in the 2nd half for his career, Jacque Jones +.049. Kubel is -.036. Mauer and Hunter are pretty much even (less than .010 difference). From Morneau's "similar batters" list at B-Ref, contemporary Prince Fielder is +.025, Adrian Gonzalez +.042, Adam LaRoche +.071, and Aubrey Huff +.069. Thome is -.028, Willingham -.046.

 

Of course, every player is different too.

The big difference for Morneau is that his home games were being played on the rock hard Metrodome surface.

 

Other than catcher, I really don’t think most players should need to be rested more than once every ten games. There are already more off days built in to the schedule than there were even 15 years ago. The season is seven days longer, but they still play 162 games. There are 21 off days built in to the schedule, including the AS break. That’s more than 3 per month, or one every ten days. So, no, I wouldn’t think a world class athlete in his prime would need more than 1 day in 5 off. Maybe an older guy would.

[nicksaviking]

I'm all for resting the players to keep them fresh. But are the Twins really doing it much more than normal? Polanco is the only regular batter who has been healthy all year, and he's only missed 7 games. By contrast, last year Kepler was the team's only season long healthy starter and missed 6 games.

 

I'm thinking all of this discussion has only come up because Sano didn't pinch hit for LaMarre yesterday and we weren't privy to the news that his back was acting up and he wasn't available?

[USAFChief]

 

 

I'm thinking all of this discussion has only come up because Sano didn't pinch hit for LaMarre yesterday and we weren't privy to the news that his back was acting up and he wasn't available?

No.

 

I started the thread because I don't see any benefit to "resting" players. Sano/LaMarre had nothing to do with it.

[nicksaviking]

 

No.

 

I started the thread because I don't see any benefit to "resting" players. Sano/LaMarre had nothing to do with it.

 

Who has been resting more than expected? It seems to me we are even seeing fewer 'Get-away-day' Sunday lineups than we saw with Gardy and Molitor.

[USAFChief]

 

Who has been resting more than expected? It seems to me we are even seeing fewer 'Get-away-day' Sunday lineups than we saw with Gardy and Molitor.

They're all resting more than I would like.

 

It's part of Baldelli's "style." Regular, scheduled off days. 

 

 

http://www.startribune.com/manager-rocco-baldelli-is-leading-twins-in-a-hands-off-manner/510596922/

 

[nicksaviking]

 

They're all resting more than I would like.

 

It's part of Baldelli's "style." Regular, scheduled off days. 

 

 

http://www.startribune.com/manager-rocco-baldelli-is-leading-twins-in-a-hands-off-manner/510596922/

 

It's hard to argue with the results, but I don't see anything in there showing the players are actually taking fewer games off. This is the closest I see:

 

That’s why he has pushed back bus time to the ballpark on the road, and has canceled once-daily batting practice nearly a third of the time — “show-and-go” is the baseball term for it, and it’s written on the clubhouse whiteboard at least once or twice a week. Baldelli has also mapped out regular off days for every player on the roster, and downplayed any notion of “the Twins way” in favor of “do what works for you.”

 

The Twins players had off days with Gardy and Molitor too, but they weren't mapped out, it was just usually Sundays. The extra rest guys are getting seems like it's mostly less BP and not having to get to the ballpark long before necessary. 

[ScrapTheNickname]

I agree with the premise of resting players. The season, including spring training, is at least 7 months long. Players don't have weekends off like the rest of us. We can only imagine how relentless the grind is.

 

I have long entertained the idea that players should be given a little two-week vacation during the season to keep them fresh. While this isn't realistic, I think it would be healthy to get away from the game and come back refreshed.

 

How Baldelli has handled the team this year is fine with me. Gone are the days when the Jerry Terrells of the world hardly ever played.

[Bill Brown69]

I like the approach Rocco has took from the first press conference till now. We could fire him and he wouldn't be unemployed long enough to clean out his office. I think he is a great manager and hope that he is here for the next 10-20 years.

 

The part that still makes me go WHAT? is that there are still those who wonder if we are going to make the playoffs. 

[USAFChief]

 

It's hard to argue with the results, but I don't see anything in there showing the players are actually taking fewer games off. This is the closest I see:

 

That’s why he has pushed back bus time to the ballpark on the road, and has canceled once-daily batting practice nearly a third of the time — “show-and-go” is the baseball term for it, and it’s written on the clubhouse whiteboard at least once or twice a week. Baldelli has also mapped out regular off days for every player on the roster, and downplayed any notion of “the Twins way” in favor of “do what works for you.”

 

The Twins players had off days with Gardy and Molitor too, but they weren't mapped out, it was just usually Sundays. The extra rest guys are getting seems like it's mostly less BP and not having to get to the ballpark long before necessary. 

And I'd like the regulars to play 155 games, minimum. 158 is more like it, and truth be told, 162 isn't asking too much. It's never been out of the norm for players other than catchers.

 

I highly doubt an extra day off makes any difference whatsoever in how they feel, or function. And I'd rather the regulars be in the lineup when available, since there's a really good chance they'll be out of the lineup due to injury at some point anyway. Why intentionally add time off?

[Kelly Vance]

 

And I'd like the regulars to play 155 games, minimum. 158 is more like it, and truth be told, 162 isn't asking too much. It's never been out of the norm for players other than catchers.

 

I highly doubt an extra day off makes any difference whatsoever in how they feel, or function. And I'd rather the regulars be in the lineup when available, since there's a really good chance they'll be out of the lineup due to injury at some point anyway. Why intentionally add time off?

Because we are human and need rest. And God created the Sabbath specifically for that reason. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

You and Morneau might be right, but I'm not sure the data is too meaningful.

 

Morneau's best season -- 2010 -- he didn't play in August or September. 2009, he had a specific back injury that he tried to play through in August and September, etc. I wonder how much those events can skew things?

 

And what's a normal variation in career half-season splits? Cuddyer is +.025 in the 2nd half for his career, Jacque Jones +.049. Kubel is -.036. Mauer and Hunter are pretty much even (less than .010 difference). From Morneau's "similar batters" list at B-Ref, contemporary Prince Fielder is +.025, Adrian Gonzalez +.042, Adam LaRoche +.071, and Aubrey Huff +.069. Thome is -.028, Willingham -.046.

 

Of course, every player is different too.

And this is where data will be key to this kind of approach working. Not every player is going to react the same to a heavy workload but in Justin's case, it was pretty obvious he couldn't carry that kind of load (not an insult to him or anything, humans are different). He even admits as much and it's backed up by a declining career OPS as the season wears down.

 

Maybe the blanket answer is "let everyone rest because we can't identify who needs it most" but I hope that in today's game, they have enough data to start figuring out how to best approach each person because we're all different with different needs.

[Brock Beauchamp]

BTW, I'm not sure starters are really being rested that much, anyway. Polanco is on pace for 155 games. Kepler was on roughly the same pace until the injury. Rosario would be over 150 if not for the IL stint.

 

The rest are too hard to figure out because of the myriad of injuries and downtime suffered on this roster.

[Huskertwin]

I really hate it when we rest someone and replace him with a player who is playing out of position. Adrianza is not a major league first baseman and cost of two runs by missing that ball in the 2nd inning that Cruz would have turned into a double play. And the prior time Adrianza played first he had two misplays on fielding/catching the ball. Of course I do like Adrianza's bat, but the fielding needs to be taken into account as well. Baldelli has gotten pretty lucky with Arraez in LF but early on he cost us runs. I know we're shorthanded in the outfield now, but try to use actual outfielders when possible.  

[Platoon]

I really hate it when we rest someone and replace him with a player who is playing out of position. Adrianza is not a major league first baseman and cost of two runs by missing that ball in the 2nd inning that Cruz would have turned into a double play. And the prior time Adrianza played first he had two misplays on fielding/catching the ball. Of course I do like Adrianza's bat, but the fielding needs to be taken into account as well. Baldelli has gotten pretty lucky with Arraez in LF but early on he cost us runs. I know we're shorthanded in the outfield now, but try to use actual outfielders when possible.

 

I like this because someone recognizes that 1B defense IS important. Sadly, thats not as widely held an opinion as I would think it should be. I will say I am not sure Cruz was who you meant? Cron?

[Platoon]

Two comments on Rocco the Rester. I am not a fan of "scheduled" days off. I have read he makes out lineups a week in advance? Don't you paint yourself into a corner doing that. Keeping players happy while making out a lineup is not that easy as is. Secondly, much has been made of the catcher situation. Healthy, decent to good numbers. Is this the result of some grand plan, or is this the result of having differing splits for a RH and a LH hitting catchers?

[ewen21]

 

I recognize it was Bert & Jim Kaat talking but they both made the point on Berrios that putting him out on 3 days rest would have been more beneficial than giving him the extra day at 5 days rest going into the RedSox game. I do get the "recovery" metrics of today's game and won't argue the statistical merits but this is developing into a pattern for Jose. 2 seasons in a row now for him. On the outfield - ouch..I think everyone now wishes we still had Jaylin, and not Dyson. That may prove to hurt. Who'd have thought we'd be so far down the totem pole on outfielders in September.

With all due respect to Bert and Kaat, no way can Berrios perform like that.

 

Pitchers today simply cannot go as deep into games and I believe it has a lot to do with the reality that there is no way a pitcher can keep their muscles loose to pitch for much over two hours.  Games are so damn long now and the human body just isn't made to go deep in today's game.  The average length of a ballgame today as compared to the 1970s is forty minutes longer.  I think we hit a tipping point a while back.

 

Not only that you have a guy like Berrios who works out like crazy, but does he really do the proper working out?

 

Food for thought

[Danchat]

 

Two comments on Rocco the Rester. I am not a fan of "scheduled" days off. I have read he makes out lineups a week in advance? Don't you paint yourself into a corner doing that. Keeping players happy while making out a lineup is not that easy as is. Secondly, much has been made of the catcher situation. Healthy, decent to good numbers. Is this the result of some grand plan, or is this the result of having differing splits for a RH and a LH hitting catchers?

I think a big factor was getting Marwin Gonzalez on the team, and he could start in a lot of spots and not embarrass himself like past Twins bench players would. Add on Adrianza's solid season at the plate and Arraez's brilliance, and I find it hard to say resting players has been a negative thing. They've been throwing quality lineups out there on almost every day thanks to the depth this team has.

[notoriousgod71]

Let's not forget that in the last CBA they agreed to ADDITIONAL days off throughout the course of the season. They are already automatically getting more rest than they would have previously.

[notoriousgod71]

 

Two comments on Rocco the Rester. I am not a fan of "scheduled" days off. I have read he makes out lineups a week in advance? Don't you paint yourself into a corner doing that. Keeping players happy while making out a lineup is not that easy as is. Secondly, much has been made of the catcher situation. Healthy, decent to good numbers. Is this the result of some grand plan, or is this the result of having differing splits for a RH and a LH hitting catchers?

 

THIS.

 

There have been times were guys have had multi-home run games and then are on the bench the next day.

 

Also, early in the season it seemed to me he did this with the bullpen, where our set up guys were pitching in blowouts and guys like Vazquez pitched in a close game.

 

 

[notoriousgod71]

 

I think this is the kind of thing we need more than one season to evaluate and even then we likely won't know if it helps (but the Twins might).

 

Resting players doesn't make injuries disappear. But if it reduces the chance of injury by, say 10%, then it's a significant step in the right direction.

 

We wouldn't even notice a 10% drop in injuries but after a few years, the Twins may be able to quantify the difference.

 

I think just writing off the idea as "well, people still get injured" misses the point of the exercise. And I'm not even saying rest is actually working - though I suspect it is on some level - only that we have no idea if it's working.

 

Fun fact- I reduced the number of speeding tickets I got by driving less. Not because I slowed down.*

 

Injuries SHOULD go down if you're not playing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Story may or may not be true as the scenario was used to make point and I am a law-abiding citizen that would never speed.

 

 

[rdehring]

As long as we are talking about reserves, where they play, etc., I have a question.  Has anyone besides me been impressed with Arraez' play at third base?  Seems like he fields the position well and has enough arm to be average or better.  Is it possible he is a better third baseman, defensively, than at second?

[rv78]

They're all a bunch of wimps. Try doing construction work for 10 hours a day Monday thru Friday and 5 hours on Saturday every week for 12 months out of the year. 

How much "work" do these over-paid well-conditioned athletes really do? I understand there is more to their day than just playing the game but really! Physically they don't exert themselves unless they're running on the field somewhere. Almost half the game they're sitting in the dugout. That 2 hours on the field waiting for the ball to get hit to them must be strenuous. I suppose swinging for the fences everytime can cause oblique strains and tweaked wrists, sore shoulders and pulled muscles but then maybe you should be smarter than that and not swing harder than you need to. I laugh everytime I hear someone isn't playing because they need rest. He can rest after the game and on scheduled off days. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

They're all a bunch of wimps. Try doing construction work for 10 hours a day Monday thru Friday and 5 hours on Saturday every week for 12 months out of the year. 

How much "work" do these over-paid well-conditioned athletes really do? I understand there is more to their day than just playing the game but really! Physically they don't exert themselves unless they're running on the field somewhere. Almost half the game they're sitting in the dugout. That 2 hours on the field waiting for the ball to get hit to them must be strenuous. I suppose swinging for the fences everytime can cause oblique strains and tweaked wrists, sore shoulders and pulled muscles but then maybe you should be smarter than that and not swing harder than you need to. I laugh everytime I hear someone isn't playing because they need rest. He can rest after the game and on scheduled off days. 

If they're such wimps, you should get out there and show them all how it's really done.

[SwainZag]

 

They're all a bunch of wimps. Try doing construction work for 10 hours a day Monday thru Friday and 5 hours on Saturday every week for 12 months out of the year. 

How much "work" do these over-paid well-conditioned athletes really do? I understand there is more to their day than just playing the game but really! Physically they don't exert themselves unless they're running on the field somewhere. Almost half the game they're sitting in the dugout. That 2 hours on the field waiting for the ball to get hit to them must be strenuous. I suppose swinging for the fences everytime can cause oblique strains and tweaked wrists, sore shoulders and pulled muscles but then maybe you should be smarter than that and not swing harder than you need to. I laugh everytime I hear someone isn't playing because they need rest. He can rest after the game and on scheduled off days. 

 

How many people are watching your 10 hour work day under a thick microscope?  How many people call you out when you dog it the last 2 hours or your day?  Take an extra 10 minutes for lunch?  Not carry the max load every single time to a jobsite? 

 

And the real question is....does your company have people lined up to take your spot when your back is a little sore and can't haul as much?  A "sore muscle" or a "tweaked back" or a "strained hamstring" is the difference between making a throw, making an extra base, 5-6 MPH on your fastball..  With professional athletics, especially baseball, there is such a thin line between being a capable major league player and not.  If a guy can't run to first, he isn't playing period.  If my pitcher who throws 95, can only get 88 because of something in his arm, he isn't playing.  He isn't good enough too.  "The shucks, you don't do much, rub some dirt on it" doesn't apply because there are people who can get it done.

 

 

I absolutely hate the argument that athletes are above us and need to work harder when everything they do is live for the world to see.  Eddie doesn't hustle down to 1st on a grounder to the pitcher? We light him up on the forum.  A guy is held out of the lineup with a sore back?  We light up him in the forum.  There is no one watching me intensely right now thinking..."Wow, swainzag is posting on that dang Twins Daily site again instead of doing his work paperwork again let's get rid of him"