Article: Deadline Primer: Should Nick Gordon Be On The Table?

[rdehring]

Sure we should consider trading Gordon, because it isn't just Javier and Marte on the horizon. Note, I didn't mention Lewis because I doubt he sticks at short. But we also have Palacios and Arraez in A ball with both looking to be well above average hitters.

 

My question, however, is do you consider adding Kohl Stewart to the mix? Like most of us, don't have a clue what he is going to become. Is there some team out there with a top young starter who could be high on him?

 

But yes, Gordon should be available for the right return.

[mazeville]

I would trade Nick Gordon for the right controllable pitcher. This team needs pitching more than it needs another middle infielder. 

 

It's also nice to see the Twins consider this. I still believe they're winning through smoke and mirrors and are more likely to come back to earth. But if they're going to make a move to improve their ability to contend, this is the way to do it.

 

 

[drjim]

I actually think that might not be enough for Quintana.

He's not an ace, no, but a really good number 2, would be a staff ace on several teams.

He's controlled beyond this year, and starting pitching is expensive in July.

It wouldn't be enough.

[mikelink45]

I am not against trading any of our prospects for a quality starter, but:

• Straily is only a one year quality starter, remember Hughes one good year?  Not convinced on him.
• We have to have a plan for SS - we can trade Polanco and Dozier if we know who will fill in, but up the middle defense is essential and this team has demonstrated how hard that can be to get (as  hard as a quality pitcher?).

[jimmer]

I would look at Straily's career FIP, and his most recent ones, and then take into account he pitches in the NL. Then I would pass on trading any quality for him.

Edited July 12, 2017 by jimmer

[jud6312]

 

Sure. We can just go with plan b of waiting until we develop an ace and hoping that we happen to also have a Sano and Buxton and Kepler hitting their primes along with enough other arms and pen pieces to be in contention at whatever future date that ace appears...

Or plan c, we trade away talent for future talent who will be able to contribute about the time we're forced to Joe Mauer, Johan Santana, or Torii Hunter our core (over pay, trade, or let walk) which is fine because there's always 2032.

This window is finite. I'm not willing to waste 2 years of Sano and Buxton. Otherwise trade them both and commit to a true rebuild centered around elite pitching prospects.

Are we talking about an ace or are we talking about Jose Quintana?

 

I have zero problem giving up talent to get talent, but that's too much IMO for Quintana.

[amjgt]

Perhaps a more interesting question.... would you include Buxton as the main piece of an Archer trade?

[laloesch]

 

Perhaps a more interesting question.... would you include Buxton as the main piece of an Archer trade?

 

Yep at this point.

Edited July 12, 2017 by laloesch

[olivia11]

 

Perhaps a more interesting question.... would you include Buxton as the main piece of an Archer trade?

 

No.  Can you imagine how bad the Twins pitching would be this season without Buxton in CF?  Archer wouldn't fix that.   Plus, Buxton will hit.  He's 23. Patience.

[Vanimal46]

 

I don't believe the Twins are capable of beating Houston, or Washington or the Dodgers.  So I would not trade away top prospects at the trade deadline, especially when prices for quality arms are expensive.

 

The thing is, this isn't just a trade for 2017. If the return is a young, controllable starter, they're helping to solidify the rotation for multiple years. 

[amjgt]

No. Can you imagine how bad the Twins pitching would be this season without Buxton in CF? Archer wouldn't fix that. Plus, Buxton will hit. He's 23. Patience.

I'm a Buxton fan, don't get me wrong... but getting Archer would be pretty sweet

[Vanimal46]

 

Sure. We can just go with plan b of waiting until we develop an ace and hoping that we happen to also have a Sano and Buxton and Kepler hitting their primes along with enough other arms and pen pieces to be in contention at whatever future date that ace appears...

Or plan c, we trade away talent for future talent who will be able to contribute about the time we're forced to Joe Mauer, Johan Santana, or Torii Hunter our core (over pay, trade, or let walk) which is fine because there's always 2032.

This window is finite. I'm not willing to waste 2 years of Sano and Buxton. Otherwise trade them both and commit to a true rebuild centered around elite pitching prospects.

 

Concur. Realistically there are 4 years left of the "Core 4" featured yesterday (Sano, Buxton, etc.) And frankly, the pitching in the minors probably won't be ready to be true contributors for another 2 years. 

I like that the FO is thinking outside the box and willing to give up prospects to shore up the rotation. Makes me think they believe the offense is legit. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I was just over reading the comments on MLBTR ... White Sox fans seem to think a "number 1" like Quintana should be able to net them Gordon, Kirilloff and Gonsalves.

 

Did I miss a punchline somewhere? When did Quintana become an ace? Would anyone consider such a package?

 

I'd probably throw kittens into traffic if the FO did something that stupid.

 

That offer doesn't even register for a pitcher who is better than Quintana (and such a pitcher isn't even on the market right now anyway).

 

Gordon is a nice prospect, no doubt, but it looks like he might have a little helium right now.  Gonsalves is young with nice numbers, but with his stuff he's almost universally regarded as having little chance to be an ace himself.  Kirilloff is a wild card, obviously, but if he becomes anything, it seems likely to be a non-elite corner player, right?

 

To add a guy like like Quintana -- even though he's not an ace -- for a guaranteed pennant race (2017) plus 3 more controllable seasons (2018-2020), if anything that seems light from the Twins perspective.  Note that Quintana's salary is low enough to not prevent us from still making a FA splash if we choose to do so, and the 3 remaining years of control give us plenty of opportunity to recoup value either in performance or another trade (think Price getting dealt a second time).

[Han Joelo]

I'd rather see them hold onto their big chips for now. This is the time to be trying to find that Arrieta type of guy. Unlikely--but it's worth trying. I'm suggesting they should be looking for another teams Meyer/Nolasco package.

 

Even if this team scorched the farm to bare earth and acquired Archer AND Quintana, I'm not sure they'd look better than Cleveland on paper. Let Alone Houston.

 

Of course, they're not playing on paper. Man, I really hope Colon provides this team with a shot in the arm. (Not literally! That was Erv's deal...)

Edited July 12, 2017 by Han Joelo

[Mike Sixel]

 

Pretty much everyone should be on the table, in the right deal. Including Gordon.

If you aren't willing to spend actual prospects, you are going to have a hard time acquiring talent. And the Twins desperately need pitching talent.

 

Agreed, but it has to be for a controllable pitcher. 

 

And no, Gordon alone isn't enough to get that.....

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I would look at Straily's career FIP, and his most recent ones, and then take into account he pitches in the NL. Then I would pass on trading any quality for him.

Straily is obviously a modest target.  But the Marlins do have a couple interesting relievers in Ramos and Phelps.  A package deal might make sense.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Trading for very good pitching is very expensive.  Look at the trades for Sale, Miller and Chapman.   Those trades remade the Yankees farm system.  If you look at the Sale trade, which involved MLB top ranked prospect and a 30, the Twins currently have no one in there farm system to make such a deal.  If you look back historically, it would have been the equivalent of the Twins trading Sano (or Buxton) plus Berrios and couple of lower level prospects.    If the Twins were 1 starting pitcher away from a legitimate shot at a WS run, I could see a trade for Archer, Gray, or Quintana.  The problem is the Twins need at least 1 starting pitcher (maybe 2) and 2 relief pitchers.  Obviously the injuries to May and Perkins have an impact.  

 

I don't believe the Twins are capable of beating Houston, or Washington or the Dodgers.  So I would not trade away top prospects at the trade deadline, especially when prices for quality arms are expensive.

 

how do you propose they get pitching next year, or the year after, if not in trades?

[Doomtints]

Should someone who keeps getting better and better be traded, a rising star in the middle infield (the two positions of constant need for every organization)?  Nah.

 

In the modern era, pitchers are injury magnets. Don't trade a rising star for a pitcher. Trade an older player or a player whose salary you don't like instead. Looking at you, Dozier.

 

There isn't a pitcher of worthy enough caliber to trade someone like Gordon off that the Twins would not be able to pick up in free agency. If the Twins want pitching prospects, they can trade away different pieces....

Edited July 12, 2017 by Doomtints

[Mike Sixel]

 

Should someone who keeps getting better and better be traded, a rising star in the middle infield (the two positions of constant need for every organization)?  Nah.

 

In the modern era, pitchers are injury magnets. Don't trade a rising star for a pitcher. Trade an older player or a player whose salary you don't like instead. Looking at you, Dozier.

 

They couldn't deal Dozier the entire off season. So, why could they now?

[Vanimal46]

 

Should someone who keeps getting better and better be traded, a rising star in the middle infield (the two positions of constant need for every organization)?  Nah.

 

In the modern era, pitchers are injury magnets. Don't trade a rising star for a pitcher. Trade an older player or a player whose salary you don't like instead. Looking at you, Dozier.

 

Trading Dozier has made the most sense for the last 12 months... Who needs a 2B? Also, if Dozier is the one traded, they're most likely receiving a AA arm that won't be a positive contributor in 2017 or 2018. 

[Doomtints]

 

Trading Dozier has made the most sense for the last 12 months... Who needs a 2B? Also, if Dozier is the one traded, they're most likely receiving a AA arm that won't be a positive contributor in 2017 or 2018. 

 

Who would trade more than that for Gordon? Gordon won't be a contributor until 2018 or 2019.

[Vanimal46]

 

Who would trade more than that for Gordon? Gordon won't be a contributor until 2018 or 2019.

 

If the other team is trading for a prospect(s), they're trading away an MLB player. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Who would trade more than that for Gordon? Gordon won't be a contributor until 2018 or 2019.

 

I'll take that bet right now. He's a legit SS starter next year, and for the next 5-10. You, sir, are very incorrect about Gordon's time table.

[Seth Stohs]

 

I was just over reading the comments on MLBTR ... White Sox fans seem to think a "number 1" like Quintana should be able to net them Gordon, Kirilloff and Gonsalves.

 

Did I miss a punchline somewhere? When did Quintana become an ace? Would anyone consider such a package?

 

I'd probably throw kittens into traffic if the FO did something that stupid.

 

I wouldn't consider that package, but Quintana has been an ace, hidden in the shadows of Chris Sale, for a few years already. It will take a lot to pry him from the White Sox.

[Seth Stohs]

 

Straily? Puhleaze, girlfriend.


...but, yeah, Gordon should be available.

 

For me, Archer and Stroman are the ace-types, and they're young enough that - if healthy - can still continue to get better. For those two, not only would Gordon have to be considered, but he'd likely be insisted upon.

 

Sonny Gray scares me due to the amount of time he's missed due to shoulder issues the last 16 months or so. He's obviously immensely talented, but I wouldn't consider Gordon, Gonsalves or Romero for him. If the A's don't hang up at that point, I'd consider several multi-player packages.

 

And Straily isn't close to the three I mentioned above. He's having a solid year, but he's a possible #3 with the capabilities of being a #2... he's 28 and this is really his one very nice year so far in a career that's spanned a half-dozen years. A package for him, even with multiple years, starts much further down the prospect line, at least for me. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I wouldn't consider that package, but Quintana has been an ace, hidden in the shadows of Chris Sale, for a few years already. It will take a lot to pry him from the White Sox.

How would you say that Quintana is a "hidden ace" but you wouldn't consider that package?  If you believe that about Quintana, you'd pretty much have to consider it and quite possibly pull the trigger if the White Sox were willing.  (I think the White Sox might ask for a significant 4th piece, or just use the offer to drive up bids from other clubs, but that's another issue from whether the Twins should consider it.)

[Seth Stohs]

 

Sure we should consider trading Gordon, because it isn't just Javier and Marte on the horizon. Note, I didn't mention Lewis because I doubt he sticks at short. But we also have Palacios and Arraez in A ball with both looking to be well above average hitters.

My question, however, is do you consider adding Kohl Stewart to the mix? Like most of us, don't have a clue what he is going to become. Is there some team out there with a top young starter who could be high on him?

But yes, Gordon should be available for the right return.

 

Regarding Stewart, I doubt there is a team out there who thinks he can be an ace... However, as the 2nd or even 3rd piece of a trade, there are a lot (probably 30) teams who believe that he has enough stuff that their organization can bring it out of him still.

 

And, I hope the Twins are still one of those teams too. There's no question that he's got the stuff to be great. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

In the modern era, pitchers are injury magnets. Don't trade a rising star for a pitcher. Trade an older player or a player whose salary you don't like instead. Looking at you, Dozier.

Whom do you trade Dozier for?  I don't even think a Jose De Leon type would be on the table anymore.  (Well, the actual injured Jose De Leon probably would be, but not a SP prospect with his offseason ranking.)

Edited July 12, 2017 by spycake

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

There isn't a pitcher of worthy enough caliber to trade someone like Gordon off that the Twins would not be able to pick up in free agency.

Quintana for a guaranteed 2017 pennant race, and then at 3/30 (the last two years being team options), covering his age 28-31 seasons, is certainly not available in free agency.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Quintana for a guaranteed 2017 pennant race, and then at 3/30 (the last two years being team options), covering his age 28-31 seasons, is certainly not available in free agency.

 

Good FA pitchers will get around 14-16 per year, minimum, this off season. More like 20MM per year if they are as good as him. Maybe more.