ACE up the Twins sleeve in 2017? Or a handful of jokers?

[DocBauer]

I know we've been hashing and rehashing what the Twins need to do the rest of 2016 while building for 2017 and the such. But this is a topic that I felt deserved it's own thread.

 

This is in regard to the 2017 rotation. No matter how good they may ultimately turn out, guys like Jay, Gonsalves and Stewart are at least a year away. (Barring a late 2017 appearance) The Twins absolutely need to make some moves, and Nolasco is chief amongst them. I dare say, one way or another, I think most of us believe he will be gone. I'm not even counting on Hughes at this point for any role based on contract, injury, lack of velocity, etc. (We might just find another Perkins situation when looking at his velocity drop and ineffectiveness this season)

 

It would seem to me Santana will be back. (An arm, a veteran presence, plus time left on his contract) Gibson is a given. Berrios SHOULD be a given at some point here. Is Duffey a given? Maybe. We've seen what he CAN do. We've seen glimpses of it this season, though he hasn't been the same player. But again, he's young, has talent, and still hasn't even put in a full season yet. May should also be a logical possibility. Guys like Meyer, Wheeler and Dean are options, though perhaps on the outside looking in, at least initially.

 

But there is still over half a season left in the 2016 season to see how some of these youngsters develop. And if we really want to, we can bitch and moan incessantly about our current FO, or their replacement, etc. But we've done an awful lot of that already.

 

The way I see the 2017 rotation is 1 veteran, 1 young veteran, and a trio of youngsters. Santana is aging, but still better than most of what we've seen this year. We're still not a 100% sure about Gibson's ceiling, and everyone else is still a wait and see. For a team that is getting younger..FINALLY...and may end up even younger the rest of '16 and '17, what direction SHOULD the Twins take in regard to 2017?

 

SHOULD this team run with 5 jokers...wild cards...Santana and the kids? If one of the kids stumbles, send him to Rochester and bring up another. Etc. And by 2018, MAYBE the end of 2017, there could be another 3-6 prospects ready to compete. Remember, we're a rebuilding team now, on a youth movement.

 

OR

 

SHOULD this rebuilding team sacrifice 3-5 quality players/prospects and make a move for a front of the rotation, 28 yo veteran SP? Top of the line SP doesn't come cheap, we all know this. And it would cost us probably 2 of our top SP prospects, a top RP arm, and at least 1 more really quality prospect. Said acquisition wouldn't necessarily have to be an All Star, certified ACE...however you want to quantify or characterise what a true ACE is...but he would definately be a front line, #1 quality pitcher.

 

I don't know that I have an answer. I can see both sides of the debate. I'm asking you for your call on this and your reasoning why, either way.

[Vanimal46]

I would prefer to make a trade for a top of the rotation arm. Who that could be and what the Twins would have to give up, I don't know.

 

I don't think this current crop of pitchers are THIS bad going into 2017, but I also can't see a significant step forward until the staff is revamped.

 

Just looking at the numbers, only the Reds have a worse ERA, no team is below the Twins in quality starts, and no team has blown more leads late in games.

 

We all love our prospects here, but giving up some in order to right the ship IMO is worth it.

[dgwills]

5 wild cards. Dump as much salary as you can and pay off these bad contracts.  Hopefully we can get a few prospects in return. If things break right the Twins would be able to bring in a top of the rotation arm in 2018 to go along with a good young team.

[DaveW]

Trade for an ace, slot in Berrios into the rotation and then pray for rain in the other 60% of the games.

[Everyday Eddy]

Go young and hope enough rise up to provide us a solid core and then in 3 or 4 years buy the big guns in FA to push us to the top.   An ace on this staff would be pointless right now with all other aspects of the team in shambles.   

[HitInAPinch]

 

I would prefer to make a trade for a top of the rotation arm. Who that could be and what the Twins would have to give up, I don't know.

I don't think this current crop of pitchers are THIS bad going into 2017, but I also can't see a significant step forward until the staff is revamped.

Just looking at the numbers, only the Reds have a worse ERA, no team is below the Twins in quality starts, and no team has blown more leads late in games.

We all love our prospects here, but giving up some in order to right the ship IMO is worth it.

If it's me and this is my team, I'm spending $$$ on a true ace.  Will that be around in the next free agent season?  Some.  Would they sign with the Twins?  Sure, large sums of cash will do it!

 

1st thing I do is buy a "Greg Maddox Starting Pitching for Idiots" book for Berrios and Duffey.  The both seem to have read John Wettland's book  "Throw Harder:  The Brain-Dead Heavers Book to Success for Idiots" book.  They both need to get away from how hard they can throw to mixing up pitches, moving the ball around.  Generally speaking, getting a clue.

[Vanimal46]

If it's me and this is my team, I'm spending $$$ on a true ace. Will that be around in the next free agent season? Some. Would they sign with the Twins? Sure, large sums of cash will do it!

 

1st thing I do is buy a "Greg Maddox Starting Pitching for Idiots" book for Berrios and Duffey. The both seem to have read John Wettland's book "Throw Harder: The Brain-Dead Heavers Book to Success for Idiots" book. They both need to get away from how hard they can throw to mixing up pitches, moving the ball around. Generally speaking, getting a clue.

Unfortunately this upcoming FA pitching class is pitiful. Maybe the worst in years. So immediate help from FA in 2017 won't do the trick.

[jimmer]

 

Unfortunately this upcoming FA pitching class is pitiful. Maybe the worst in years. So immediate help from FA in 2017 won't do the trick.

wouldn't matter anyway.  The chance that Ryan would sign a true Ace pitcher in FA is as likely as any of us winning 100M+ in the lottery...twice.

[laloesch]

Trade as many pieces as possible dump that which is practical.    

 

Trade or DFA Nolasco & Santana.  Hughes is unmovable at this point.

 

If Gibson finishes the season the way he started the Twins will have to decide if he's worth tendering a contract too or outright releasing him.  

[gunnarthor]

I think they should also give May another shot in the rotation after Molitor is gone.  But, realistically, next years rotation will be most of the same names.  I don't think the Twins will DFA Nolasco and, frankly, he hasn't been horrible this year.  A bit unlucky although that's always been a theme of his.  Still, he, Hughes and Santana will all be under contract for us next year.  

[Rosterman]

What do the Twins have now. Nothing to show from Arcia. No one will give them squat for Nolasco, Gibson, Hughes, Dozier, Plouffe, probably even Rosario or Santana. Escobar could be worth a tad. Nunez and Abad would bring in something. 

 

Yet the Twins have to refresh their low level minors and anyone that offers them a rough A prospect for any of the above should be listened to, because it frees up salary and roster space.

 

The Twins have solid prospects. Berrios, May, Meyer, Gonsalves, Stewart, Jay, Wheeler, Jorge, LeBlanc, Romero, Thorpe, Baxendale, Eades. They will always have a Duffy or Dean or Darnell or Albers in the system to solidify that 5th spot (eghad...wouldn't it be great to never have one-year wonders).

 

You don't trade for anyone this season. It will do no good. If the young blood makes us competitive, you might consider some prospects in 2017, as our jar will be over flowing with names that CAN'T ALL be protected on the 40-man. And in 2018, you make a big splash with money for the best free agent pitcher out there.

 

The front office. They should be looking hard at what every organization MIGHT have to offer us for any of our worthless vets. Every organization has guys blocked by others. We can take that third infielder or catching prospect, that wild arm at Class A. We have the staff to develop them. Just don't trade for anyone that needs to be protected in 2017 pr even 2018.

 

The front office has to look at ALL Twins prospects and see who THEY CAN'T protect in 2017 and 2018 and start thinking of ways to package those guys, especially if they show some promise, with those worthless commodities we would like to see gone from today's roster. At the least, we can't lose tradable assets to Rule 5 or minor free agents. 

 

Yes, you can continue to monitor the waiver wire. But DON'T invest HIGHLY in mid-level free agents.

 

Or better yet, let's have that front office turnabout. We need baseball blood that is keeping up with the modern game, where players aren't members of the Minnesota Twins or playing the Twins Way. All ballplayers now are part of Major League Baseball and each team has to figure out ways to get them to play as prospects or play as free agents for their little empire instead of some other team. There is no loyalty in baseball except for playing time which translates into service time which translates into money, period.

 

And we need a field staff dedicated to helping our crop of youthful prospects dealing with the emotions of suddenly being rich players. Keeping them earthbound and team bound as long as you can. 

 

It will be sad to see the number of players from the 40+ names playing this season that will bring nothing of value back to the team.Yes, many have given us stellar moments on the field and a few memories during the past five seasons, but those that remain, today, play at the lowest point in Twins history and it seems they aren't even making their own stock rise in the world of major league baseball. Which is pretty sad. Given the opportunity to play major league baseball, in an environment where your best will show more than the team's best, I have never seen such a team of....sad losers. It's horible to say that about anyone doing a job. It is really, really sad.

[REPETE]

I do believe moving May back to the rotation in '17 (or even late this year) has to happen.  It's a lot easier, and cheaper, to find a quality relief pitcher than a quality starter.  

 

I believe trading a bunch of prospects for 1 starter in 2017 is too risky.  This team probably won't be ready to compete early next year, either (although not out of the realm of possibility), therefore I think we wait until mid 2017 or the offseason going into 2018. 

[bluechipper]

 

I think they should also give May another shot in the rotation after Molitor is gone.  But, realistically, next years rotation will be most of the same names.  I don't think the Twins will DFA Nolasco and, frankly, he hasn't been horrible this year.  A bit unlucky although that's always been a theme of his.  Still, he, Hughes and Santana will all be under contract for us next year.  

Are we at a point where a 5.12 ERA isn't horrible? I suppose you could be looking at his 3.47 FIP, even though he had a 3.51 FIP last year, but a 6.75 ERA. 

 

I doubt Nolasco is in the rotation next year, unless he pitches well enough for the rest of the season to get his ERA down into the mid-4's.

[jimmer]

 

Are we at a point where a 5.12 ERA isn't horrible?

It's a matter of perspective really.  Considering our rotation ERA is 5.59, by having him and his 5.12 ERA in the rotation, it makes our rotation ERA lower :-) 

[Ncgo4]

There is no good answer. We've seen the junk arms T R has signed the last few years and the trade of Hu (still a top prospect) for Jepsin (a near total bust). Is there any reason to believe that this head office can make a reasonable trade based on recent history. On the other hand why in the world would we ever believe that this group could develop a promising young staff of fire ballers?

 

The only answer might be to hope the current staff gets turned over and the new group does the right things.

[Hrbowski]

What is the point of trading for an ace when we won't need one?

[mikelink45]

An Ace means we win 10 more games in a season.  We are to terrible to trade prospects for 73 instead of 63 wins.  We were all told we were building towards 2016, now it is 2017, but in reality it is 2018 (if we are lucky) and an Ace right now means nothing.  In fact, who think the Twins can figure out what an Ace is?  Seldom do true Aces get traded and then we have to figure out what we would have to trade to get an Ace.  Do you think the Mets would trade one of their studs for Berrios and May?  Or Berrios, Duffey, May, Dean, and anyone else you can name?  I don't. 

[diehardtwinsfan]

even if we traded for Clayton Kershaw and he played out the rest of his career at a high level in MN, that wouldn't make this cluster you know what of the Twins a whole lot better. I don't have a problem getting an ace, but right now I don't think the Twins should be going after expensive FAs that will most likely cause other clutter issues on the roster.  They need to get these kids a chance.  Once they see what they have, then get the ace.  But now?  That's just another 100M type commitment that won't do much more than to shrink the gap between us and the WS by a few games. 

[Riverbrian]

I have a really nervous feeling in the pit of my stomach. 

 

That 40 man is overcrowded with youth. 

 

I'm worried that it will cause a corrective action from the front office. IE... Trading Youth for Marginal Vets.

 

Which will set us back because I think Youth is the only way out of this mess. 

 

 

 

[howieramone2]

TR is looking to contend in 2017. The most valuable commodity in baseball is young starting pitching and our Twins have a bunch. Duffey, Berrios, Stewart, Jay, Gonsalves, and Thorpe. As King Theo would say, there is no such thing as a young free agent. I would package several of our young prospects, including Polanco, and trade for a youngish 2/3 starter.

[TheLeviathan]

Contending in 2017 is an absurd goal.  It's just not going to happen, sorry.

 

This team should look to clean up the 25 and 40 man rosters and audition players the rest of this year and next year.  Hopefully those auditions reveal enough talent to build around after that.

[howieramone2]

 

Contending in 2017 is an absurd goal.  It's just not going to happen, sorry.

 

This team should look to clean up the 25 and 40 man rosters and audition players the rest of this year and next year.  Hopefully those auditions reveal enough talent to build around after that.

It was an absurd goal in 2015 also wasn't it.

[ashbury]

It was an absurd goal in 2015 also wasn't it.

Mirages often are.

[jimmer]

even if we traded for Clayton Kershaw and he played out the rest of his career at a high level in MN, that wouldn't make this cluster you know what of the Twins a whole lot better. I don't have a problem getting an ace, but right now I don't think the Twins should be going after expensive FAs that will most likely cause other clutter issues on the roster. They need to get these kids a chance. Once they see what they have, then get the ace. But now? That's just another 100M type commitment that won't do much more than to shrink the gap between us and the WS by a few games.

dont worry. Whether the twins should or not, its never gonna happen

[drivlikejehu]

The idea of the Twins trading away prospects right now is bizarre, completely divorced from reality, and at odds with the fact that most of their prospects won't pan out. They need quantity.

[TheLeviathan]

It was an absurd goal in 2015 also wasn't it.

Yes it was, we believed the mirage and now look at us.

[S.]

 

TR is looking to contend in 2017. The most valuable commodity in baseball is young starting pitching and our Twins have a bunch. Duffey, Berrios, Stewart, Jay, Gonsalves, and Thorpe. As King Theo would say, there is no such thing as a young free agent. I would package several of our young prospects, including Polanco, and trade for a youngish 2/3 starter.

If TR thinks we're contending in 2017, then he's even more delusional than we thought. 

 

Any trade talks for a young #2 starter are going to start and end with Berrios or Sano. You can't just package a bunch of junk and 1 decent prospect and get back a young, established, 2 or 3 starter. And even if you could, it still wouldn't make us contenders in 2017.

 

Also, since when is having one hot month and missing the playoffs "contending"? There wasn't a single team in the playoffs last season that wouldn't have annihilated us in the first round, had we even made it.

[kellyvance]

A casual observer may suspect that the Twins front office doesn't know anything about pitching. Those of us who have watched the team for a while, know this to be true.

 

[Mr. Brooks]

Are some actually suggesting that as the worst team in baseball we should be buying, not selling?

[howieramone2]

 

If TR thinks we're contending in 2017, then he's even more delusional than we thought. 

 

Any trade talks for a young #2 starter are going to start and end with Berrios or Sano. You can't just package a bunch of junk and 1 decent prospect and get back a young, established, 2 or 3 starter. And even if you could, it still wouldn't make us contenders in 2017.

 

Also, since when is having one hot month and missing the playoffs "contending"? There wasn't a single team in the playoffs last season that wouldn't have annihilated us in the first round, had we even made it.

Berrios and Polanco would get you a 2/3. We did contend in 2015, look it up.