ACE up the Twins sleeve in 2017? Or a handful of jokers?

[S.]

 

Berrios and Polanco would get you a 2/3. We did contend in 2015, look it up.

And that would be the most idiotic trade TR has ever made. You honestly think trading Berrios and Polanco for a 2 or a 3 going into 2017 would be a good idea? 

 

If you read my post, I responded to your second point. Having one good month with a crappy team that doesn't make the playoffs isn't contending in my book. If you're happy with that, be my guest, but you're clearly in the minority.

 

 

[jimmer]

 

If TR thinks we're contending in 2017, then he's even more delusional than we thought. 

 

Any trade talks for a young #2 starter are going to start and end with Berrios or Sano. You can't just package a bunch of junk and 1 decent prospect and get back a young, established, 2 or 3 starter. And even if you could, it still wouldn't make us contenders in 2017.

 

Also, since when is having one hot month and missing the playoffs "contending"? There wasn't a single team in the playoffs last season that wouldn't have annihilated us in the first round, had we even made it.

TR, some fans, and Pohlad may THINK we could contend this year.  They, along with some fans, were delusional to believe we would this year because of the one great month we had last year.  For some, that one month masked how bad the team really was even though just a little bit of digging would have told them other-wise.   

 

We are not close to being contenders. We wont be next year either. This team has a long way to go and the 40 man is horrible constructed.

 

Ending up 3 back for the 2nd wild card and one game over .500 was technically contending, but it doesn't really make one a true contender.  Makes one a pretender. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Are some actually suggesting that as the worst team in baseball we should be buying, not selling?

 

It's the same mentality that lead to this debacle.  Sadly, I think TR might be doubling down just as that poster is on a flawed strategy.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Berrios and Polanco would get you a 2/3.

A 2/3 like Shelby Miller last winter?

[DocBauer]

Just to re-state the original intention of the post, there shouldn't be any big time ACE or #1 SP on the market this coming offseason.

 

The original point was to either

1} work with what we have, put the best 5 SP out there, and roll through any and all contenders if someone underperforms...with more options, perhaps better options, available late 2017 and 2018.

 

Or

 

2} make a bold move for a top of the rotation that was 28-ish, (maybe younger?) even though the team wouldn't contend in 2017, but you'd give up talent to bring in the one "stud" pitcher with the idea he'd help stabilize and lead the staff in 2018 and beyond when the Sano's, Buxton's, Kepler's, Polanco's, Berrios's, Burdi's and Chargois's, etc, would be established with the club.

[Mr. Brooks]

Just to re-state the original intention of the post, there shouldn't be any big time ACE or #1 SP on the market this coming offseason.

 

The original point was to either

1} work with what we have, put the best 5 SP out there, and roll through any and all contenders if someone underperforms...with more options, perhaps better options, available late 2017 and 2018.

 

Or

 

2} make a bold move for a top of the rotation that was 28-ish, (maybe younger?) even though the team wouldn't contend in 2017, but you'd give up talent to bring in the one "stud" pitcher with the idea he'd help stabilize and lead the staff in 2018 and beyond when the Sano's, Buxton's, Kepler's, Polanco's, Berrios's, Burdi's and Chargois's, etc, would be established with the club.

In #2, who exactly are you trading for a 28 year old ace that still leaves Sano, Buxton, Berrios, Kepler and Polanco?

 

Any team trading a young ace is asking for one of Sano/Buxton plus Berrios plus one of Kepler/Polanco.

[howieramone2]

 

And that would be the most idiotic trade TR has ever made. You honestly think trading Berrios and Polanco for a 2 or a 3 going into 2017 would be a good idea? 

 

If you read my post, I responded to your second point. Having one good month with a crappy team that doesn't make the playoffs isn't contending in my book. If you're happy with that, be my guest, but you're clearly in the minority.

Damn right.

[Mike Sixel]

 

It was an absurd goal in 2015 also wasn't it.

 

No team has gone from 100 losses to the playoffs the next year. Ever.*

 

* I don't know if this true or not, but I'm pretty confident it is.

 

so, ya, contending next year looks a bit unlikely.

[Blackjack]

 

Just to re-state the original intention of the post, there shouldn't be any big time ACE or #1 SP on the market this coming offseason.

The original point was to either
1} work with what we have, put the best 5 SP out there, and roll through any and all contenders if someone underperforms...with more options, perhaps better options, available late 2017 and 2018.

Or

2} make a bold move for a top of the rotation that was 28-ish, (maybe younger?) even though the team wouldn't contend in 2017, but you'd give up talent to bring in the one "stud" pitcher with the idea he'd help stabilize and lead the staff in 2018 and beyond when the Sano's, Buxton's, Kepler's, Polanco's, Berrios's, Burdi's and Chargois's, etc, would be established with the club.

You don't do number 2 until you are contending and you need the one stud starter to get you to the WS. 

 

The biggest problem of this team is starting pitching that doesn't give you enough innings, so the bullpen gets way overused, leading to poor performances by them.

 

My vote would be number 1 AND any trades that they make to get rid of the veterans would include more young starting pitching in return.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Damn right.

 

This seems like a strange plan.  Didn't you declare the rebuild "complete" this offseason?

[bluechipper]

 

No team has gone from 100 losses to the playoffs the next year. Ever.*

 

* I don't know if this true or not, but I'm pretty confident it is.

 

so, ya, contending next year looks a bit unlikely.

Maybe not 100 losses, but in 2014, Texas lost 95 games and Houston lost 92, and they both made the playoffs the following year.

[S.]

 

This seems like a strange plan.  Didn't you declare the rebuild "complete" this offseason?

That one #3 pitcher is clearly the one piece we're missing this year that's preventing us from being a world series contender.

 

http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af264/JamieOwen3/Chuckle.gif

[Mike Sixel]

In 2014....TX was devastated by injuries, setting a MLB record for most players to be active on a 25 man roster in 1 year. Their manager resigned after that year. The Twins have no such excuses, imo.

 

Houston serves as the 1 example in the last 40 years, and that was 92 games?

[nicksaviking]

I'd like to see what a new regime, top to bottom, does with the young arms first before any bold moves are made. Without pointing any fingers, I don't believe that these guys are reaching their potential within the organization as it currently stands. That a team would show decades of futility drafting and developing top end MLB starting pitchers like the Twins have done can't be chance, it has to be systematic. Some of these young guys may be everything we hoped they would be if they find themselves in the right hands and put in the right situation.

[old nurse]

 

In 2014....TX was devastated by injuries, setting a MLB record for most players to be active on a 25 man roster in 1 year. Their manager resigned after that year. The Twins have no such excuses, imo.

 

Houston serves as the 1 example in the last 40 years, and that was 92 games?

So Molitor should resign at the end of the year because the injuries to Perkins, Gibson, Hughes, Sano and May are insignificant to the overall success of the team?  OK>

 

Luhnow as much fired Porter because it took the spotlight off his perceived mistakes with Brady and Nix. Politics also were rumored to play a large part.

[Mike Sixel]

 

So Molitor should resign at the end of the year because the injuries to Perkins, Gibson, Hughes, Sano and May are insignificant to the overall success of the team?  OK>

 

Luhnow as much fired Porter because it took the spotlight off his perceived mistakes with Brady and Nix. Politics also were rumored to play a large part.

 

No, the point was, it has happened twice, and neither time was 100 losses. One of those took a team that was supposed to be good (not by the team, or fans, but by "experts" for what that is worth) to have the most injuries and use of a 25 man roster in history......one was kind of like the Twins. 

 

the point was, it is nearly unheard of for a team to be this bad, and then be in the playoffs the following year. the sooner the FO admits that, the sooner it can set itself up for 2018 and beyond.

[LaBombo]

 

You don't do number 2 until you are contending and you need the one stud starter to get you to the WS. 

 

The Twins are doing number 2 almost every night.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Major League Ready]

 

An Ace means we win 10 more games in a season.  We are to terrible to trade prospects for 73 instead of 63 wins.  We were all told we were building towards 2016, now it is 2017, but in reality it is 2018 (if we are lucky) and an Ace right now means nothing.  In fact, who think the Twins can figure out what an Ace is?  Seldom do true Aces get traded and then we have to figure out what we would have to trade to get an Ace.  Do you think the Mets would trade one of their studs for Berrios and May?  Or Berrios, Duffey, May, Dean, and anyone else you can name?  I don't. 

Last year there were 5 SPs with a WAR above 5.6.  Kershaw was tops with 7.1.  Shelby Miller had a WAR of 3.4 and Atlanta got a haul for him.  Of course, WAR is a suspect stat but predicting 10 extra wins in incredibly optimistic.

[S.]

 

So Molitor should resign at the end of the year because the injuries to Perkins, Gibson, Hughes, Sano and May are insignificant to the overall success of the team?  OK>

I don't recall us doing so hot before any of them got injured either.

[HitInAPinch]

#1 seems like the only choice.  I don't know what happened early this year [i've speculated elsewhere that the team didn't take Spring Training very seriously] but as it stands right now, success probably won't happen next year, either.  I say, take advantage and follow what the Red Sox have done: make 'em learn in the MLB, come hell or high water.

 

Get Berrios up, May back to the rotation [RP may have been the cause of back problems...] Duffey stays, and let them pitch.  The rest of this year, and maybe next, it could be ugly.  Same for Buxton and Rosario.  Sink or swim in the MLB.  At least we'll know.

 

Need to start thinning out the plugin pitchers in the bullpen and see what some of the MiLB RP's can do.  Objective, same as the SP's.

 

Further more [ and, yeah I know you were only talking about pitchers ]

 

Sano.  In yesterday's appearance of Plouffe at 1st base, did the Twins just create a 4-man rotation for 3 positions?  Mauer, Park, Plouffe and Sano rotating between 1st, 3rd and DH?  Moving forward, this kinda makes sense to me [find Sano's best position, increase Plouffes' trade value, etc.] 

 

Max Kepler seems to be improving at a pretty decent pace.  Why change that?  Buxton back to MiLB would be a waste of time.  We already know what he can do there.  Grossman?  Might make a pretty decent trade candidate.

[jimmer]

 

I don't recall us doing so hot before any of them got injured either.

exactly.  we shouldn't act like Gibson, Hughes, Perkins and May were HELPING this team before they got hurt.  and, honestly, not sure how much Sano was either, when including his defense.

[jimmer]

 

 

 

Luhnow as much fired Porter because it took the spotlight off his perceived mistakes with Brady and Nix. Politics also were rumored to play a large part.

When talking about firing Porter, Luhnow said: '"I recognize that our win-loss record is largely a product of an organizational strategy for which I am responsible," Luhnow said in a statement. "Rather, I made this decision because I believe we need a new direction in our clubhouse."

 

Doesn't sound, at all, that Luhnow was taking the spotlight off his own mistakes.

 

[old nurse]

 

No, the point was, it has happened twice, and neither time was 100 losses. One of those took a team that was supposed to be good (not by the team, or fans, but by "experts" for what that is worth) to have the most injuries and use of a 25 man roster in history......one was kind of like the Twins. 

 

the point was, it is nearly unheard of for a team to be this bad, and then be in the playoffs the following year. the sooner the FO admits that, the sooner it can set itself up for 2018 and beyond.

The late 80s  into the 1990sAtlanta and Phillies team slipped you mind. The Padres nearly did it , but they had a .500 season. The Cubs were the Cubs until 1984.   Yup. not recent, does not matter.

[old nurse]

Why do people not understand shoulder injuries are mot binary?

[alarp33]

 

So Molitor should resign at the end of the year because the injuries to Perkins, Gibson, Hughes, Sano and May are insignificant to the overall success of the team?  OK>

 

 

 

Twins record when players were placed on DL: 

 

Glen Perkins: 0-8

Kyle Gibson: 7-15

Miguel Sano: 15-37

Phil Hughes: 18-42

Trevor May: 18-42

 

Yes, those injuries were insignificant in the grand scheme of things. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

The late 80s  into the 1990sAtlanta and Phillies team slipped you mind. The Padres nearly did it , but they had a .500 season. The Cubs were the Cubs until 1984.   Yup. not recent, does not matter.

 

In their history, PHI has never lost 100 games, so not sure how they went from 100 losses to the playoffs.

 

Same with the Braves, never lost 100 games in a season. Ever.

 

Now, they both had a year where they lost in the 90s and then made the playoffs the next year.....so I guess it is possible that it can happen, if you change the parameters of what I said, sure. Those events occurred more than 24 years ago.

[Everyday Eddy]

I don't care if a team once went 30-132 and then made the playoffs the next season.    Anyone who's watched these Twins should be able to realize that they are not making the playoffs next year

[jimmer]

 

In their history, PHI has never lost 100 games, so not sure how they went from 100 losses to the playoffs.

 

Same with the Braves, never lost 100 games in a season. Ever.

 

 

Nor did the Cubs in the 80s.

 

Devils advocate.  A lot less playoff spots available back in the day, but your point still stands.

[wsnydes]

 

It's the same mentality that lead to this debacle.  Sadly, I think TR might be doubling down just as that poster is on a flawed strategy.

That is a horrifying thought.

[wsnydes]

 

Maybe not 100 losses, but in 2014, Texas lost 95 games and Houston lost 92, and they both made the playoffs the following year.

Both of those teams had something this team is sorely lacking in - pitching.