Ryan on Worley

[jharaldson]

In the handbook that was released today (and I recommend that everyone get it, great read) there was a comment regarding Worley that I had concern with:

 

 

 

PH: He turned around and made comments through the media about the Twins coaching staff not finding some mechanical adjustments for him like Pittsburgh did. Do you take those comments personally?
TR: No, that happens a lot when you part ways with players. That’s not Vance Worley by himself. We get that all the time and so does every club. That’s not unusual for a guy to say something like that. If that’s what he thought he should say it. We got no problem with it. We’ve lived with that with many different experiences with players that have gone elsewhere. Sometimes you don’t click with a guy and ultimately he goes elsewhere and he clicks and then those stories start to come about. You got to live with that type of stuff, that’s not anything that you should run from. Why didn’t we notice what Pittsburgh noticed? Maybe they were on top of something we weren’t recognizing.

 

I find the lack of curiosity here very frustrating.  I don't think the "click" theory put forward by Ryan is a deep enough thought to this problem.  I don't get how we basically gave away Worley for nothing because our staff said that is what he was worth and then he turns it around in another org.  I would have hoped he would have said something to the effect of:

 

 

That concerns us greatly, we don't have the pitching depth right now that we can afford to give away quality starters.  We are doing an internal review right now to figure out what went wrong in this process.  This is the second time the Pirates have been able to turn around one of our guys and we need to figure out why.

 

[Platoon]

I would have been a lot more surprised if he had answered your question with "your" type of quote than the one he gave you. TR does not impress me as the type of guy to openly admit that he would learn anything from listening to someone else.

 

That said, Worley's quotes lend themselves towards personal. That seems to fit in with a trait the Twins have displayed in the past. There was a doghouse. Now I imagine every team has a doghouse. It's the amount of time you spend in it, the depth of the ostratacion, and whether you can extricate yourself from it that determines whether the doghouse is a productive tool of motivation, or simply somewhere for your "dogs" to live till you get rid of them?

[Paul Pleiss]

Who let the dogs out? Who?! Who?! Who?! Who?! Who?! Who?!

Who let the dogs out?!?

 

No really, one of them just took a huge crap on my front porch.

[The Wise One]

I would have been a lot more surprised if he had answered your question with "your" type of quote than the one he gave you. TR does not impress me as the type of guy to openly admit that he would learn anything from listening to someone else.

 

 

So in an interview when Ryan talks about the perspective gained by talking to outside candidates he was basically spewing what ended up on Pleiss's porch?  Ryan will not tell you specifics what he has done right or wrong. All of his cards are kept close to the vest, even if it is an unpaired three of diamonds.  Nor would I expect anyone who posts on this board to admit what they posted bears a resemblance to what is on Pleiss's porch.

[big dog]

When I was listening to the NL wild-card game I heard the announcer describe various successes that Pittsburgh has recently had with pitchers who struggled in other organizations.  I think he mentioned three reclaimations without even getting to Worley.  He thought that there must be some serious pitching coach mojo in the organization.  I think he's probably right.

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

I think with the exception of their recent draft pick phenom Gerrit Cole, their whole 2014 rotation was a reclaimation project.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I think with the exception of their recent draft pick phenom Gerrit Cole, their whole 2014 rotation was a reclaimation project.

2012-2013 too (AJ Burnett being the most notable).

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

So; on one hand I think it's very fair to be critical of the Twins for letting talented pitching slip through their fingers, but on the other hand I think the Pirates should get a big heaping serving of kudos for how they've developed and rehabilitated their pitching acquisitions.

 

I agree with Terry Ryan that cases like Worley happen with most teams, not just the Twins. It doesn't mean that it stings the fans any less when it happens to the Twins.

[REPETE]

I'm sure TR also knows that there's no way on God's green earth everyone's favorite Pitching Coach is coming back, so why kick that dog?

[Otto von Ballpark]

I agree with Terry Ryan that cases like Worley happen with most teams, not just the Twins.

I would wager that turnarounds as quick as Worley's are pretty rare -- particularly when the player is 26 years old, earning league minimum, apparently healthy, and doesn't even require a 40-man roster spot for the whole season (as Worley didn't once he cleared waivers).  Heck, at that point, had we simply kept in the minors a little longer than Pittsburgh did in 2014, he still wouldn't have been arb-eligible for 2015 either.

 

How many players who get sold outright (for likely a nominal amount) post a ~1.5 WAR half-season for their new team only a few months later?

 

I can't help but wonder, when St. Peter explained the Bartlett situation as "the manager wanted him", if the Twins didn't apply similar logic when casting aside Worley after just 19 starts despite a lot of flexibility to cheaply retain him longer.

[Kwak]

Juxtapose the "pitching failures"  (perhaps include some of the minor leaguers), the dumping of Ortiz, and the search for a new manager and we find a common thread--The Twins Way.  "Do things our way or else."  Following orders is more important than anything else!

[Circus Boy]

Not terribly concerned about Mr. Ryan's curiosity or lack thereof. It's just a divorce, of sorts -- when the ballplayer and club stop hearing each other, well, it's time to change the locks. Sometimes the player gets the better of the deal. Sometimes his old club does. Sometimes both are better for it. 

[Winston Smith]

You would hope that somewhere in the Twins org. they are looking at Worley before and after to find out what they missed and not let that happen again. Not just Worley but any player that leaves and gets better, why did this happen what did we miss?

 

I tend to think, from what we have heard over the years from TR, that isn't the case. He/they do it their way for good or bad and not much changes.

[Linus]

I would wager that turnarounds as quick as Worley's are pretty rare -- particularly when the player is 26 years old, earning league minimum, apparently healthy, and doesn't even require a 40-man roster spot for the whole season (as Worley didn't once he cleared waivers).  Heck, at that point, had we simply kept in the minors a little longer than Pittsburgh did in 2014, he still wouldn't have been arb-eligible for 2015 either.

 

How many players who get sold outright (for likely a nominal amount) post a ~1.5 WAR half-season for their new team only a few months later?

 

I can't help but wonder, when St. Peter explained the Bartlett situation as "the manager wanted him", if the Twins didn't apply similar logic when casting aside Worley after just 19 starts despite a lot of flexibility to cheaply retain him longer.

I think there are two interesting aspects to this situation (Ryan's answer not being one of them):

First, Gardy apparently had more pull with personnel decisions than appeared on the surface.  And when you got on the wrong side of Gardy, you tended to stay that way.  Maybe he basically told the front office to get him out of here because he didn't like the attitude or whatever.

Second, I don't think the Twins necessarily should get blamed because of the turnaround as that happens, pretty frequently, actually.  The part that was a massive mistake was not keeping him around just in case.  He wasn't taking up a 40 man spot and it would have cost them nothing to take a longer look.

 

I actually think the real reason for all of this has nothing to do with the Twins coaching or the Pirates coaching.  Rather, he had the "elbow cleanout" procedure and likely wasn't the same pitcher.  When he got by that, the old movement, etc. came back.  The big mystery technical change he quoted was that he was "flying open".  Well, that's as basic as "keep your left arm straight" in golf.

[SweetOne69]

I would wager that turnarounds as quick as Worley's are pretty rare -- particularly when the player is 26 years old, earning league minimum, apparently healthy, and doesn't even require a 40-man roster spot for the whole season (as Worley didn't once he cleared waivers).  Heck, at that point, had we simply kept in the minors a little longer than Pittsburgh did in 2014, he still wouldn't have been arb-eligible for 2015 either.

 

How many players who get sold outright (for likely a nominal amount) post a ~1.5 WAR half-season for their new team only a few months later?

 

I can't help but wonder, when St. Peter explained the Bartlett situation as "the manager wanted him", if the Twins didn't apply similar logic when casting aside Worley after just 19 starts despite a lot of flexibility to cheaply retain him longer.

R.A. Dickey didn't put it together until he was 36.  Prior to joining the Mets his best year was with the Twins (4.62 ERA, 92 ERA+), then he goes to the Mets and wins a cy young (granted it was his 3rd year with the Mets, but All 3 years he pitched better than he ever had.

[gunnarthor]

I would wager that turnarounds as quick as Worley's are pretty rare -- particularly when the player is 26 years old, earning league minimum, apparently healthy, and doesn't even require a 40-man roster spot for the whole season (as Worley didn't once he cleared waivers).  Heck, at that point, had we simply kept in the minors a little longer than Pittsburgh did in 2014, he still wouldn't have been arb-eligible for 2015 either.

 

How many players who get sold outright (for likely a nominal amount) post a ~1.5 WAR half-season for their new team only a few months later?

 

I don't think it's that uncommon.  Scott Diamond was a rule v guy who put up a 2.5 WAR season the year after we got him.  Sam Deduno was a lifetime journeyman we got for nothing and he managed a 1.5 WAR season in 2013.  This year, the Astros nabbed someone named Collin McHugh off of waivers and he responded with a great season and over 4 WAR.  Years ago, Toronto gave up on a guy named Esteban Loaiza, who signed with the White Sox and put up a 7 WAR season and starting some "White Sox pitching coach is a genius" stories.

 

What happened with Worley is a problem but I don't know how and where to put the blame.  Was he pitching hurt for us? Did our guys not notice a mechanical flaw?  Is he a NL guy? When we got him, I thought he was going to be a solid back of the rotation guy for us.  That was clearly not the case.  But he's also not a great pitcher.  He's never exceed 135 innings in a season.  He's a backend guy.  Those types can catch fire for a season and the Twins, under Ryan, have made a bunch of pick ups like that as well.

[TheLeviathan]

I believe them when they say this is fairly common for both incoming and outgoing players.  What I wish I would've heard was "We look at those situations after the fact to see if we can learn anything and move on"

[Mike Sixel]

We just don't know what went on between Worley and the team.....but from the outside, cutting a guy you can keep in AAA, that you just traded for, seems an odd decision. I'd surmise things happened that we'll never know about. I'm ok not knowing. I also hope, like leviathan, that they are trying to learn from this.

[blindeke]

Would anyone on this board really want Worley back in the Twins' uniform? Not me. Might as well talk about Nishioka turning it around in Japan.

[Mike Sixel]

I would. I didn't want him cut in the first place. That's one person.....

[gunnarthor]

We just don't know what went on between Worley and the team.....but from the outside, cutting a guy you can keep in AAA, that you just traded for, seems an odd decision. I'd surmise things happened that we'll never know about. I'm ok not knowing. I also hope, like leviathan, that they are trying to learn from this.

At the time, he was just horrible in ST and the AAA roster was pretty set - Meyer, May, Johnson, Pino ... I forget who else.  There was a lot of talk that he was going to have to go to AA, like Gilmartin.  It's also possible the team didn't want his attitude in AAA around Meyer and May - the baseball prospectus guys have talked about that in general - not specific to the Twins - about how teams try and keep disgruntled players from being around top prospects.  It's also possible that the FO was doing Worley a favor by sending him to a team in the NL that would give him time in AAA instead.  Since I imagine the Twins thought he was pretty much useless.  So it's not surprising that they didn't want to hold onto that. Obviously, he got better in Pit.

[Linus]

Would anyone on this board really want Worley back in the Twins' uniform? Not me. Might as well talk about Nishioka turning it around in Japan.

Well, when your pitching is as bad as ours - yes.  He's not a great pitcher but he could have improved our rotation last year, and maybe next year.  Another factor is sinkerball pitchers without great secondary stuff are an absolute high wire act.  They can have success but their sinker has to sink and their control has to be impeccable.  When either of those two things are not present, it gets ugly in a hurry.  He is essentially Nick Blackburn - and I won't be surprised if he ends up hitting the skids like Nick did.

[Eephus]

I'd agree with the sentiments about TR playing it close to the vest and also not kicking a dog while it's down. Both are pretty trademark Terry Ryan traits.

[DuluthFan]

In my opinion, the Twins did the right thing at the time in regards to Worley. He just came off a horrible first year with the Twins and was not looking like he could turn it around before the prospects were ready to be called up.

 

Remember at the start of the season he was off the 40 man roster and had several other players ahead of him on the depth chart. Teammates on the AAA roster who were also on the 40 man roster were Johnson, Darnell and May. They would be the first options for call ups if the major league starters needed replacing. There were also Pino, Diamond and Myer on the same roster. Pino earned his way onto the major league roster with a great start at AAA, unfortunately it didn't work out when he pitched for the Twins. The Twins were grooming their top prospect pitchers, May and Myer for midseason call ups and the other pitchers seemed to have no major pitching issues that needed fixing. If Worley would have stayed in the organization, by the time he could have gotten his pitching mechanics fixed, May or Myer could have been ready and he would have been stuck at AAA. Whether or not the Twins had identified the problems with Worley, they could have felt that by the time he was fixed, there wouldn't be a spot for him in the rotation.

[Willihammer]

I was skeptical of the trade from the get-go and am glad the Twins cut bait when they did. I only wish they hadn't penciled him in as the opening day no. 1 starter when our fallback guys were Sam Deduno, Pedro Hernandez, etc.

 

Worley's success has always relied on the fickle combo of pinpoint control and batters keeping the bat on their shoulder, and good framing/friendly umpires. I remain confident that Worley doesn't have the stuff to stick in any big league rotation for very long, certainly not an AL one.

 

Heh. I still remember opening day 2013 when he grabbed a handful of rosin and threw it at the Tigers leadoff batter. What a punk move.

[ashbury]

It's also possible the team didn't want his attitude in AAA around Meyer and May - the baseball prospectus guys have talked about that in general - not specific to the Twins - about how teams try and keep disgruntled players from being around top prospects. 

If that's the case then you should probably never have a top prospect at AAA, because that level is liberally sprinkled with guys who don't want to be there and don't feel they belong there.  Including the manager in some instances.

[Otto von Ballpark]

R.A. Dickey didn't put it together until he was 36.  Prior to joining the Mets his best year was with the Twins (4.62 ERA, 92 ERA+), then he goes to the Mets and wins a cy young (granted it was his 3rd year with the Mets, but All 3 years he pitched better than he ever had.

That sort of proves my point -- Dickey was already very old, and he ultimately was let go by the Twins only AFTER his season here, when he would have required not only a 40-man roster spot all through the winter but I think also an arbitration offer and basically a guaranteed 25-man spot the next spring, when his performance to that point hadn't warranted it.

 

I don't think anyone would have faulted the Twins if, after another mediocre 2014 in Rochester and/or Minnesota, Worley was let go following the season.  Heck, I don't think anyone would fault the Twins much if Worley had been claimed on waivers back in March (well, I'm sure someone would have faulted them ).  It was the selling him in March when they had him freely until October that was strange and irked us.

[Brandon]

Wasn't Hughes a reclamation project the Twins corrected too.  Change of scenery happens all of the time.  Worley from afar seemed to make constant excuses and was very defensive here and I thought a change of scenery was the right thing for him.  I thought Terry Ryan was doing him a favor sending him to Pittsburgh.  I am more offended that he would blast the Twins after they did what they could to help.

[Otto von Ballpark]

At the time, he was just horrible in ST and the AAA roster was pretty set - Meyer, May, Johnson, Pino ... I forget who else.

Scott Diamond was also on the AAA roster.  Why did we wait to do him a favor, given his position on the depth chart?  Also, despite Worley's recent terribleness, he was younger than Johnson, Pino, and Diamond, with more MLB success too.  Oh, and Johnson and Pino are both of the 40-man roster again, and minor league free agents, so it's not like there was much of long-term view there.  "Older AAA depth in a rebuilding season" isn't what I consider a great value play.

 

The interesting thing with Worley is, when he was on the roster, he had no value because his recent performances sucked and he was out of options.  Hence no one claimed him on waivers.  But once he cleared, he actually had some value again -- it was a free season to stash him at AAA or whatever, just like Parmelee.  But instead of using that free season working to build his value beyond "potential AAA depth", the Twins immediately sold him.  (I'd be curious for how much.)

[Otto von Ballpark]

I thought Terry Ryan was doing him a favor sending him to Pittsburgh.

I have no problem with TR's favors, except when they cost the team a potential asset.