Roster Utilization Thread

[Riverbrian]

On 6/6/2025 at 8:36 AM, TheLeviathan said:

Bride and Clemens are not good counter examples to this.  The purpose of the farm is not to have a bunch of Quad-A players available for emergencies.  The farm is about player development.  You might house some Quad-A guys there, but not enough to fill-in for all scenarios.  Hence....waivers.

And your own argument on Lewis/Lee speaks to why this is hypocritical.  You want those guys down/benched because they can't hit, but that's why Julien, Miranda, and others are down there.  They need development/refinement.  Clemens and Bride are past that stage.  They are what they are.  And what they are is not good enough for a regular role unless you get lucky and somebody goes on a heater.  (Clemens)  They're not good enough to steal regular at-bats from actually talented players like Lee.

I know you are aware of this but your arguments seem to exist in some other space where this reality doesn't exist: there is a finite amount of available playing time.  There is a finite amount of player development that has proved to be possible across all of time and space in baseball.  "Everything all at once" is a movie title, not a reality of baseball.

I am aware of all of this and your post is valid. I realize that my posts on the matter tend to imply a utopian one formula easy button for success and life just isn't that easy.  

At the very least, I hope you recognize my attempts to not be hypocritical. I hope you recognize that I do go out of my way to point out that I didn't like the signing of Bride and Clemons and am now fighting for Bride.  

In response... here's a couple of considerations that hopefully sheds some clarification light on my thoughts. 

1. I don't want Lewis or Lee benched or sent down to AAA. It's a dial not a light switch. My point will never be understood if the impression is either or. There is a difference between playing 7 out of 7 days and 6 out of 7 days or even 5 out of 7 days. I don't believe that 6 out of 7 screws up rhythm and I don't believe that 5 out of 7 days screws up rhythm and if we are worried about rhythm, timing and all of those factors. What does 0 out of 7 do. At some point in time, someone is going to pull a hammy and Rocco is going to turn to Bride and he is going to be wondering where he left his bat because he hasn't touched it in a week.  

2. Perhaps the most central point of everything that I'm trying to say. If you are going to play 7 out of 7 days. You have to be better than average. Ty France (not picking on him but for example) has been fine... Average to below average but he's been fine and he has won some baseball games for us. He's fine but not good enough to play 7 out of 7 and glue someone else to the bench. You have to produce at a level that is clearly above others. You have to be truly irreplaceable. This is a pretty exclusive club. This roster has a lot of guys that don't belong in this club but are enjoying the perks of membership. They can play 6 out of 7 or 5 out of 7. With Castro on the roster... you have created playing time for competition for others. I realize that many don't see the importance of this... I'm used to it. I suspect it's because that's because they think light switch. They assume that I'm suggesting put Bride in there every day and sit Lewis everyday. I'm not saying that. Here is why it's important. Kody Clemons is why. I didn't like the signing for reasons I've stated multiple times but he was signed. He didn't really get in until someone got hurt and then Boom... he out performed nearly everybody if not everybody. Did he just get hot at exact moment through incredible timing or was he ready to explode for the two weeks he waited. I don't know... Rocco doesn't know either. There is only one way to find out.  

3. Here is an impossible scenario that will never happen but for dial not light switch purposes let's present it. Let's take the catchers out because they are different animals. Let's say that by some miracle we have 11 players who are exact replicas. They have the same skills, offensive skills and defensive, same scout projections, same past metrics, same everything. Taking the catcher out... you have 8 positions and 11 players of exactly equal talent. Over 7 games equal playing time for those 11 equal players is roughly 5 games out of 7 for all. I assume there would be no reason to choose 8 of these equal players and just sit 3 of them. 5 games out of 7 is not going to ruin any of them.  

4. Even though I presented the scenario in point #3. I am not saying that is how playing time should be distributed. Because things are not equal, I only present it to show that playing time can be painlessly yielded to create competition. It's an alternative thought to simply, choosing someone who isn't performing and staying with it. It's an attempt to letting the players decide through performance. Now of course... the players are not equal and we all know that and the front office has to take a guess at it with solid information but it should be clear to everyone that the front office, managers and coaches often get it wrong. We bet the 2B farm on Julien this year. It didn't work out. They were wrong. Rooker is in Oakland... They were wrong. The job is hard.   

5. In the end... It's simply... If a player is not allowed to compete because the manager feels it hurts the teams chances. Release him and find someone that the manager will allow to compete because that competition is the only thing that will raise the bar above the settling for average. France has been fine and playing everyday. He's far from our biggest problem but playing everyday is not fine... he's not doing that well. France isn't the problem, playing France everyday is the problem and needing another France next year is going to be the same problem next year. 

BTW... One last thing. Even after typing all of that. I do recognize that Rocco is almost doing what I'm saying above with everyone healthy. He is rotating bench time and spreading it out to work 10 players into 8 spots. He's just leaving Bride out of the party. 

I apologize for not sending donuts and coffee for reading all of that.  

 

[TheLeviathan]

29 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

I am aware of all of this and your post is valid. I realize that my posts on the matter tend to imply a utopian one formula easy button for success and life just isn't that easy. 

 

It may help your argument to lean less heavily into this characterization.

Like....it's really hard to get upset that Brooks Lee isn't losing at-bats to a guy that the 23-37 Marlins thought to waive.  We want young players to develop and get at-bats.  Stumping for one day of Bride seems like a weird hill to die on.

[Riverbrian]

3 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

It may help your argument to lean less heavily into this characterization.

Like....it's really hard to get upset that Brooks Lee isn't losing at-bats to a guy that the 23-37 Marlins thought to waive.  We want young players to develop and get at-bats.  Stumping for one day of Bride seems like a weird hill to die on.

Agreed... That's why I don't want to get caught up in the discussion of individual players because the point won't get through when it sounds like I'm this Pro Bride Guy or anti Bader guy.   

It's not my Hill. The hill belongs to the Twins when they put him on the 26 man roster. I'm saying that they could die on this hill. 

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

11 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Agreed... That's why I don't want to get caught up in the discussion of individual players because the point won't get through when it sounds like I'm this Pro Bride Guy or anti Bader guy.   

It's not my Hill. The hill belongs to the Twins when they put him on the 26 man roster. I'm saying that they could die on this hill. 

 

 

He's there because they need someone who can back up multiple positions without them pulling someone better suited for development in the minors.  Nothing more.

[RpR]

4 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

Bride and Clemens are not good counter examples to this.  The purpose of the farm is not to have a bunch of Quad-A players available for emergencies.  The farm is about player development.  You might house some Quad-A guys there, but not enough to fill-in for all scenarios.  Hence....waivers.

And your own argument on Lewis/Lee speaks to why this is hypocritical.  You want those guys down/benched because they can't hit, but that's why Julien, Miranda, and others are down there.  They need development/refinement.  Clemens and Bride are past that stage.  They are what they are.  And what they are is not good enough for a regular role unless you get lucky and somebody goes on a heater.  (Clemens)  They're not good enough to steal regular at-bats from actually talented players like Lee.

I know you are aware of this but your arguments seem to exist in some other space where this reality doesn't exist: there is a finite amount of available playing time.  There is a finite amount of player development that has proved to be possible across all of time and space in baseball.  "Everything all at once" is a movie title, not a reality of baseball.

The Minor Leagues are there for teams to see who is good enough to handle Major League, more that developement.

There are some very good ball players who just never can adapt to the needs of the Big League but spend many years in AAA.

Some are there as insurance if a player is needed, now, but in AAA they are not getting any development unless they are facing Big League pitchers down there to recover from IL .

Many of he Twins from their World Series team were full time in the Bigs before their 25th birthday, while some Twins from the past were in AAA until 29 years old and finally came up and stayed in the Bigs, not going up-down-up-down-up etc.

Right now Julien and Miranda are there because they suck in the Bigs, and Lewis probably should be there.

It has zip to do with development, and every thing to do with a lack of talent at the Big League level.

[TheLeviathan]

48 minutes ago, RpR said:

The Minor Leagues are there for teams to see who is good enough to handle Major League, more that developement.

There are some very good ball players who just never can adapt to the needs of the Big League but spend many years in AAA.

Some are there as insurance if a player is needed, now, but in AAA they are not getting any development unless they are facing Big League pitchers down there to recover from IL .

Many of he Twins from their World Series team were full time in the Bigs before their 25th birthday, while some Twins from the past were in AAA until 29 years old and finally came up and stayed in the Bigs, not going up-down-up-down-up etc.

Right now Julien and Miranda are there because they suck in the Bigs, and Lewis probably should be there.

It has zip to do with development, and every thing to do with a lack of talent at the Big League level.

[Riverbrian]

On 6/6/2025 at 10:44 AM, TheLeviathan said:

He's there because they need someone who can back up multiple positions without them pulling someone better suited for development in the minors.  Nothing more.

And we've come full circle.

Nothing more is correct. 3 AB's over the past 11 games. 3 AB's! That's pretty much "nothing more". 

Tuesday in Sacramento. Rocco let him pinch hit for Buxton in the 9th inning with the score 10-3.  Two days later... He entered the game in Buxton's lineup slot in the 5th inning with the Twins down 11-1.

Some people read that and think that I'm being a Bride advocate. 

I'm saying ROCCO!!!

If you don't like him. Get him off the roster! 

If you like him... Let him compete. 

Our infield consists of two players who were DFA'd and those two players are out performing the other 3 options with a .665 OPS, .655 OPS and a .540 OPS. 

Bride can't crack that crack lineup or we hurt our chances. 

If that's the case... Get him off the roster!!!

[Riverbrian]

On 6/6/2025 at 1:18 PM, RpR said:

The Minor Leagues are there for teams to see who is good enough to handle Major League, more that developement.

There are some very good ball players who just never can adapt to the needs of the Big League but spend many years in AAA.

Some are there as insurance if a player is needed, now, but in AAA they are not getting any development unless they are facing Big League pitchers down there to recover from IL .

Many of he Twins from their World Series team were full time in the Bigs before their 25th birthday, while some Twins from the past were in AAA until 29 years old and finally came up and stayed in the Bigs, not going up-down-up-down-up etc.

Right now Julien and Miranda are there because they suck in the Bigs, and Lewis probably should be there.

It has zip to do with development, and every thing to do with a lack of talent at the Big League level.

When you watch the Twins. Do you watch the other teams at all?

When 25 year old Addison Barger comes to the plate and hits one to the picnic tables in right field. Do you ever wonder who Addison Barger is or do you just dismiss him out of hand?

34 year old Tyler Heinemen? 31 year old Nathan Lukes? 29 year old Ernie Clement? 26 year old Davis Schneider? 25 year old Alan Roden? 23 year old Clase.

Where did they come from?

Do you ever wonder how the Blue Jays are 11-3 in their past 14 games vs the Rangers, A's, Phillies and Twins with Barger, Heineman, Lukes, Clement, Schneider, Roden and Clase taking up 7 of the 13 roster spaces? 

When the Rangers come to town tomorrow night. Will you be watching Josh Smith, Wyatt Langford. Josh Jung, Evan Carter, Jake Burger, Ezequil Duran or Alejandro Osuna and wondering where they came from?

The Twins are 35-30, The Jays are 35-30 and the Rangers are 31-35. 

I was just wondering if you were wondering?  

 

[RpR]

5 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

When you watch the Twins. Do you watch the other teams at all?

When 25 year old Addison Barger comes to the plate and hits one to the picnic tables in right field. Do you ever wonder who Addison Barger is or do you just dismiss him out of hand?

34 year old Tyler Heinemen? 31 year old Nathan Lukes? 29 year old Ernie Clement? 26 year old Davis Schneider? 25 year old Alan Roden? 23 year old Clase.

Where did they come from?

Do you ever wonder how the Blue Jays are 11-3 in their past 14 games vs the Rangers, A's, Phillies and Twins with Barger, Heineman, Lukes, Clement, Schneider, Roden and Clase taking up 7 of the 13 roster spaces? 

When the Rangers come to town tomorrow night. Will you be watching Josh Smith, Wyatt Langford. Josh Jung, Evan Carter, Jake Burger, Ezequil Duran or Alejandro Osuna and wondering where they came from?

The Twins are 35-30, The Jays are 35-30 and the Rangers are 31-35. 

I was just wondering if you were wondering?  

 

No I do not pay attention to Minor League baseball, except occasionally on the net. (Fifty years ago I would some years buy Baseball magazines)

I did follow the Saints , to a degree,  before they were ruined by becoming a AAA team.

I may wander  over to the Twin Cities and take in a Saints game, in the future.

[Riverbrian]

18 minutes ago, RpR said:

No I do not pay attention to Minor League baseball, except occasionally on the net. (Fifty years ago I would some years buy Baseball magazines)

I did follow the Saints , to a degree,  before they were ruined by becoming a AAA team.

I may wander  over to the Twin Cities and take in a Saints game, in the future.

OK

Well

Umm

 

[tony&rodney]

26 minutes ago, RpR said:

No I do not pay attention to Minor League baseball, except occasionally on the net. (Fifty years ago I would some years buy Baseball magazines)

I did follow the Saints , to a degree,  before they were ruined by becoming a AAA team.

I may wander  over to the Twin Cities and take in a Saints game, in the future.

Well, this explains quite a bit. When you haven't watched anyone it isn't a good idea to have thoughts on that not knowing.

BTW, the minor leagues is almost exclusively for development which is why players work on specific skills in game action. This is similar to Spring Training in some ways.

If you had an mlb.com account you could watch minor league games. If you have internet there are quite a few games that are free on both mlb.com and milb.com. The other MLB teams and the minor leagues are very entertaining for a hardcore baseball fan. 

You are not incorrect that many players are or seem less accomplished in skills at the MLB level than we would hope. My take is that they are doing the best they can do. All of the former or current players I have known are total workaholics. Remember there is money to be made if one is successful. The Twins are an organization that values bats more than speed, defense, and small ball. It is what it is. 

[RpR]

21 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

OK

Well

Umm

 

For what it is worth; I do have Milb link on my computer, always, so I can check any and all games/stats. as I choose and I do check Saint boys more often than you probably think.

[Schmoeman5]

6 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

OK

Well

Umm

 

He's qualified. 

[TheLeviathan]

On 6/9/2025 at 6:38 AM, Riverbrian said:

i'm saying ROCCO!!!

If you don't like him. Get him off the roster! 

If you like him... Let him compete. 

Again....finite at-bats and playing time.  

This is where your argument and reality meet and no longer retain coherence.

[Riverbrian]

1 hour ago, TheLeviathan said:

Again....finite at-bats and playing time.  

This is where your argument and reality meet and no longer retain coherence.

No need to continue this any further. 

[jorgenswest]

This discussion has me thinking about the best way to utilize that 13th position player. The Royals always seem to have a stolen base threat that can also be a defensive sub in the outfield. They have used Tyler Tolbert and Darion Blanco in that role. Prior to the DH many teams had a player like Manny Mota to pinch hit for the pitcher. I am not sure that is needed now. The Tigers have been pretty effective pinch hitting but that is more a function of their depth and not a player in the role of pinch hitter.

Is there a need for that 13th player to be a regular part of the line up rotation getting 2-3 starts a week? Probably not. If not then would it be more helpful to a team to find a specialist that wouldn’t start that much? Keirsey was that specialist for the Twins. He was 5/7 in stolen bases which probably is below what you need from a specialist. He had a +1 OAA across the outfield. Would he be more valuable than Bride in that 13th position player role? Would Gasper be more valuable in the last spot as a pinch hitter/third catcher that hits from both sides?

[Riverbrian]

22 hours ago, jorgenswest said:

This discussion has me thinking about the best way to utilize that 13th position player. The Royals always seem to have a stolen base threat that can also be a defensive sub in the outfield. They have used Tyler Tolbert and Darion Blanco in that role. Prior to the DH many teams had a player like Manny Mota to pinch hit for the pitcher. I am not sure that is needed now. The Tigers have been pretty effective pinch hitting but that is more a function of their depth and not a player in the role of pinch hitter.

Is there a need for that 13th player to be a regular part of the line up rotation getting 2-3 starts a week? Probably not. If not then would it be more helpful to a team to find a specialist that wouldn’t start that much? Keirsey was that specialist for the Twins. He was 5/7 in stolen bases which probably is below what you need from a specialist. He had a +1 OAA across the outfield. Would he be more valuable than Bride in that 13th position player role? Would Gasper be more valuable in the last spot as a pinch hitter/third catcher that hits from both sides?

I always appreciate your posts because I know you look beyond the Twins.

I spend a lot of time on roster resource looking at the utilization of other teams. The Twins are not alone in regards to that last spot on the bench. All teams have a last spot on the bench.  Most teams set up platoons just like the Twins do. Not to the degree that the Twins were doing it but yeah roster utilization is a challenge for all teams and the pressure to win is high. Jobs, attendance and revenue are on the line. 

For me... and I understand that I am against the grain.  

I'm just plain worn out using precious roster spots on specialists because the time will come when we need more from them. Keirsay was utilized as a specialist... nothing more. Kept on ice for 44 games to merely play OF in the ninth or pinch run when we needed something to happen on the base paths. Many here will nod their head in agreement. Yep makes sense. That's all Keirsay is good for. THEN BOOM... Buxton and Correa collide and Keirsay is in the lineup every game. Didn't trust you then... but we need you now. Are you ready? We expect immediate results. 

I'm just plain worn out settling for average... Settling for OPS+ in the 90's or 80's or worse and acting like they can't take a single day off. 

I'm just plain worn out from of the chain of players from Logan Morrison on forward through time who can't be removed from the lineup for a single day and won't play a single inning for the team once the season is complete.   

I'm just plain worn out spending precious roster space resources on specialists who are on the roster to face 25% of the pitching but end up facing more right handers than left handers because of injuries and the 75% throwing from the right handed side that just compromise the development of young left handed hitters in the process.  

Many say... why does it matter? I don't see it. Well...  An example is standing right in front of us all. Kody Clemens. Nothing in his past stats suggest 130 OPS+ for any significant stretch. None of us have any idea what he will level off to in the future (near of far). Most of us would have been OK if Clemens was glued to the bench forever. We quickly attach AAAA labels on players to diminish them. The Phillies couldn't find time to utilize him. Rocco wasn't that interested until he ran out of options and then BOOM. Did Rocco not know that Clemens could go off like that on a stretch? I assume not or he would have been in the lineup quicker than the two weeks it took to get him in the lineup when he ran out of options. 

I get that Kody is a rare occurrence. In consideration of 13th man utilization it's amazing that anyone ever breaks through and surprises us but we can take a tour around the league and find Kody Clemens surprises on other teams. Did anyone have Tyler Heinemen on their Bingo Card? Wenceel Perez? Mike Tauchman? Abraham Toro? I get it... I'm sure Clemens, Heineman, Perez, Tauchman and Toro will turn back into the pumpkins at midnight but for 100 AB's in the morning of this baseball season they helped win games... they didn't cost wins. You can deal with midnight later. It's only 10am in the morning of this baseball season. Competition is important. Pre-Determination is a killer to competition and pre-determination is how you lose Brent Rooker. 

Anyway... I could care less about Bride... but that 13th roster spot. I Care deeply.

You have a device that can handle 13 players at a time. Why would you only utilize 9 of them?  

 

[stringer bell]

23 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

I always appreciate your posts because I know you look beyond the Twins.

I spend a lot of time on roster resource looking at the utilization of other teams. The Twins are not alone in regards to that last spot on the bench. All teams have a last spot on the bench.  Most teams set up platoons just like the Twins do. Not to the degree that the Twins were doing it but yeah roster utilization is a challenge for all teams and the pressure to win is high. Jobs, attendance and revenue are on the line. 

For me... and I understand that I am against the grain.  

I'm just plain worn out using precious roster spots on specialists because the time will come when we need more from them. Keirsay was utilized as a specialist... nothing more. Kept on ice for 44 games to merely play OF in the ninth or pinch run when we needed something to happen on the base paths. Many here will nod their head in agreement. Yep makes sense. That's all Keirsay is good for. THEN BOOM... Buxton and Correa collide and Keirsay is in the lineup every game. Didn't trust you then... but we need you now. Are you ready? We expect immediate results. 

I'm just plain worn out settling for average... Settling for OPS+ in the 90's or 80's or worse and acting like they can't take a single day off. 

I'm just plain worn out from of the chain of players from Logan Morrison on forward through time who can't be removed from the lineup for a single day and won't play a single inning for the team once the season is complete.   

I'm just plain worn out spending precious roster space resources on specialists who are on the roster to face 25% of the pitching but end up facing more right handers than left handers because of injuries and the 75% throwing from the right handed side that just compromise the development of young left handed hitters in the process.  

Many say... why does it matter? I don't see it. Well...  An example is standing right in front of us all. Kody Clemens. Nothing in his past stats suggest 130 OPS+ for any significant stretch. None of us have any idea what he will level off to in the future (near of far). Most of us would have been OK if Clemens was glued to the bench forever. We quickly attach AAAA labels on players to diminish them. The Phillies couldn't find time to utilize him. Rocco wasn't that interested until he ran out of options and then BOOM. Did Rocco not know that Clemens could go off like that on a stretch? I assume not or he would have been in the lineup quicker than the two weeks it took to get him in the lineup when he ran out of options. 

I get that Kody is a rare occurrence. In consideration of 13th man utilization it's amazing that anyone ever breaks through and surprises us but we can take a tour around the league and find Kody Clemens surprises on other teams. Did anyone have Tyler Heinemen on their Bingo Card? Wenceel Perez? Mike Tauchman? Abraham Toro? I get it... I'm sure Clemens, Heineman, Perez, Tauchman and Toro will turn back into the pumpkins at midnight but for 100 AB's in the morning of this baseball season they helped win games... they didn't cost wins. You can deal with midnight later. It's only 10am in the morning of this baseball season. Competition is important. Pre-Determination is a killer to competition and pre-determination is how you lose Brent Rooker. 

Anyway... I could care less about Bride... but that 13th roster spot. I Care deeply.

You have a device that can handle 13 players at a time. Why would you only utilize 9 of them?  

 

I agree in principle with you @Riverbrian, but I think there are occasions where having a specialist works and I happen to think the Twins are in that window. With Lee, Clemens and Castro providing a lot of versatility and two of those guys being switch hitters, the Twins really have things covered with 12 position players. Having a guy who can realistically get them an extra base or an extra out in a close game can translate to wins.

It’s lousy for player development, so you don’t want a guy who projects to be much more. Keirsey is probably a good example IMHO. 

[jorgenswest]

8 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

You have a device that can handle 13 players at a time. Why would you only utilize 9 of them? 

There are two opposite pulls for me.

I do not think platooning helped last year. I really opposed that short side platoon that created the all right handed line up against left handed pitching. I wanted those left handed batters to play nearly every day and see left handed pitching.

I also want all of the players on tthe bench to be ready when needed. I want them growing in their skills. That is in conflict with wanting players like Wallner and Larnach in the line up nearly every day. I don’t even want that bench player to hit for Larnach or Wallner if a lefty reliever enters in mid game.

I wonder if the last spot on the bench and the last spot in the bullpen are best utilized by shuttling from AAA. Rules make that difficult though. Players can only be optioned a limited numbers of times during the season and there is wait time before they can return to the majors once optioned.

 

[Riverbrian]

22 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

I agree in principle with you @Riverbrian, but I think there are occasions where having a specialist works and I happen to think the Twins are in that window. With Lee, Clemens and Castro providing a lot of versatility and two of those guys being switch hitters, the Twins really have things covered with 12 position players. Having a guy who can realistically get them an extra base or an extra out in a close game can translate to wins.

It’s lousy for player development, so you don’t want a guy who projects to be much more. Keirsey is probably a good example IMHO. 

I wasn’t complaining about the role Keirsay had.with us as much. I had the usual what could he do with real opportunity thoughts in my head that grew louder as we crawled out of the gate offensively sucking as a team to start the season. But I understood the value of a guy with speed coming into the game late.
 

With Bride that doesn’t exist. We have a guy who faces left handers at most and robs Larnach or Wallner or Clemens of opportunity against lefties. Bride can either stand on his feet and compete or he can’t. His utilization thus far suggests that Rocco doesn’t believe he can. 
 

The day will come when Rocco will have no other option and Bride is going to be needed just like Keirsay and Clemons were needed.

He will either sink or swim. If he sinks… well Rocco… you were right and if you were right… why did we keep him for so long since you knew. If he swims… well Rocco… You were wrong. Why did he spend so much time on the bench? 

[stringer bell]

2 minutes ago, jorgenswest said:

There are two opposite pulls for me.

I do not think platooning helped last year. I really opposed that short side platoon that created the all right handed line up against left handed pitching. I wanted those left handed batters to play nearly every day and see left handed pitching.

I also want all of the players on tthe bench to be ready when needed. I want them growing in their skills. That is in conflict with wanting players like Wallner and Larnach in the line up nearly every day. I don’t even want that bench player to hit for Larnach or Wallner if a lefty reliever enters in mid game.

I wonder if the last spot on the bench and the last spot in the bullpen are best utilized by shuttling from AAA. Rules make that difficult though. Players can only be optioned a limited numbers of times during the season and there is wait time before they can return to the majors once optioned.

 

Platooning really doesn’t bother me. Pinch hitting in the middle innings does get my hackles up. With the Twins current roster, they have two pure LH hitters. Resting one against a LH starter is fine with me (bench players need to play), but tying your hands by pinch hitting for one or both of those guys in the fifth or sixth inning makes little sense to me. Giving either Larnach or Wallner PAs against LH middle relievers should help their development without hurting the team  

Having a Kyle Farmer-type as a backup/platoon player is a pretty good situation. He is good against left handed pitching, versatile and a reliable defender. He isn’t an embarrassment if he has to play regularly for a week or more, but can stay fairly sharp with limited reps. 

[Riverbrian]

44 minutes ago, jorgenswest said:

There are two opposite pulls for me.

I do not think platooning helped last year. I really opposed that short side platoon that created the all right handed line up against left handed pitching. I wanted those left handed batters to play nearly every day and see left handed pitching.

I also want all of the players on tthe bench to be ready when needed. I want them growing in their skills. That is in conflict with wanting players like Wallner and Larnach in the line up nearly every day. I don’t even want that bench player to hit for Larnach or Wallner if a lefty reliever enters in mid game.

I wonder if the last spot on the bench and the last spot in the bullpen are best utilized by shuttling from AAA. Rules make that difficult though. Players can only be optioned a limited numbers of times during the season and there is wait time before they can return to the majors once optioned.

 

I have the same opposites pulling at me. It’s a dial not a switch mitigates that. It’s why I was done after finite and coherence was thrown at me. I’ve done the Math. 8 times 7 divided by 11 is 5.09. That’s 5.09 starts out of 7 games for 11 players for 8 non catcher positions. 
 

Now I’m not asking for exactly equal playing time. You can dial up or down each player according to what they deserve or earn. You want Wallner and Buxton in the lineup everyday. Ok… 6 times 7 divided by 9 and 4.66 is the playing time available for the rest.

If the dialing up and down creates a system where players producing average or below average require 7 out 7 and you have a player dialed down to 0 out 7. Get rid of that 0 for 7 guy. Because need someone to compete with the 7 out of 7 guy.s.  If you don’t you are settling for average or below average. You’ve stopped looking for better. Can’t find an Abraham Toro that way and if you are treating expiring contracts like they not replaceable. Well… they will need to be replaced next year and what have you found? Eventually you have a roster with less pre-arb players and you 4 million dollar yourself to no payroll space. 
 

Rotation AAA for the 13th spot is a good idea. As long as they play some when up. If they struggle… send them down… they have options. If they are just going to come up and watch like McCusker and Fitzgerald did.  There isn’t much point. 
 

in the case of Larnach and Wallner. I don’t mind the occasional seat. If it happens against a left hander it makes sense statistically. It just shouldn’t be all or nothing. Left hander… you are out. We will keep looking for right handers in the off season even though we already have 9 on the roster. 

[Riverbrian]

2 hours ago, stringer bell said:

Platooning really doesn’t bother me. Pinch hitting in the middle innings does get my hackles up. With the Twins current roster, they have two pure LH hitters. Resting one against a LH starter is fine with me (bench players need to play), but tying your hands by pinch hitting for one or both of those guys in the fifth or sixth inning makes little sense to me. Giving either Larnach or Wallner PAs against LH middle relievers should help their development without hurting the team  

Having a Kyle Farmer-type as a backup/platoon player is a pretty good situation. He is good against left handed pitching, versatile and a reliable defender. He isn’t an embarrassment if he has to play regularly for a week or more, but can stay fairly sharp with limited reps. 

I used to have no problem with platoons. I felt it was logical use of data compiled by all 30 teams. 

The Twins have ruined it for me. The strict adherence to anything will ruin anything strictly adhered to. It's been better this year but If the past two years is how they interpret that data. If they are going to weight the data way past the other 29 teams. I'd rather they just stop completely. 

I'd rather they just look for hitters period and quit looking for handcuffs.  I swear to all that is holy that if I hear another off-season rumor that they are looking for a right handed bat with 9 of them already on the roster... I'm going to keep complaining about it. 

How do the Tigers do it. They platoon... however, they currently have 6 left handers on the roster. How do they survive with all of those left handed bats when they have to face Tarik Skubal? How does Cleveland survive with only 4 right handed bats on the roster? Logan Allen must wipe them out. The Orioles are struggling this year but they sure thrived for awhile with 5 left handers in the regular lineup. Now that Anthony and Meyer are up with the Sox. They got 4 of them with Cases, Abreu and Yoshida on the IL. The Yankees and Mets are sending extra lefties up to the plate. The Dodgers have 6 of them lefties. 

The Twins... We have 3 of them and we spend the off-season telling the press that they'd like to add a right handed bat.

Just go get someone that can hit. Stop trying to create Frankenstein out of parts. 

 

[Riverbrian]

Roster utilization is going to be interesting with the call up of Keirsay. Interesting probably isn't the right word. Nearly Set with no other options is probably the right words.

With the OF healthy... I only see that late inning defense and base running replacement for Keirsay. 

Bride I imagine will be elevated into a short side platoon role and the only practioner of that role.

Jeffers will probably handle a lot of DH duty against left handers. This will knock Clemons out and probably Larnach or Wallner whenever a lefty takes the mound and we got a lot of them coming up this week.  

Against Right Handers... Rocco will have 9 players to choose from for 8 positions. France, Clemons, Lee, Correa, Castro, Buxton, Wallner, Larnach and Bader. One will have to sit and my guess is that Rocco will probably rotate that one spot.     

[jorgenswest]

I think Keirsey will be more useful than Bride has been in that last spot on the bench.

It will become interesting when Lewis returns and everyone stays healthy.
Should they move Bride back in that spot or should opt for speed and defense on the bench?

[DJL44]

3 hours ago, jorgenswest said:

I think Keirsey will be more useful than Bride has been in that last spot on the bench.

I doubt either will be useful.

[jorgenswest]

The Twins used Jonah Bride to pinch run for France earlier this month in one run loss. He has a speed score of 0.6 for the Twins year and his career is 1.5. Would Keirsey (6.4) have been more useful in that situation? His speed score this year trails only Buxton (8.8) on the current roster.

[Riverbrian]

Lewis and Keaschall are on the IL.

The Twins are mainly healthy and mainly locked in. 

Basically 8 players are available for 7 lineup spots. We had a mini stretch of Larnach followed by Castro out with hand/wrist injuries that left Rocco with 7 players for 7 lineup spots. 

Wallner and Larnach appear to be in two different rotations with each other. One must play and one must sit against left handed starters and they appear to be rotating. One must play RF and One must DH and they appear to be rotating there as well. 

Against right handers... Lee has sat once, Bader has sat twice, Castro injured for three and Larnach injured for one. 

The other 5 players Clemens and Bride are platoon partners. That appears to be a thing. 

The Catchers continue to basically rotate every other game despite a despite a .239 OPS difference between the two of them.

Keirsay has been on the roster for 10 games and has one start. 

The MLB average OPS this season is .714.

The Twins have a team OPS of .707. 

In the past 15 games (Basically since Lewis got himself injured). The Twins have a team of OPS of .726

The Twins have 3 players that are .509 OPS or lower. That's right .509. Got themselves roster spots though.   

[stringer bell]

2 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Lewis and Keaschall are on the IL.

The Twins are mainly healthy and mainly locked in. 

Basically 8 players are available for 7 lineup spots. We had a mini stretch of Larnach followed by Castro out with hand/wrist injuries that left Rocco with 7 players for 7 lineup spots. 

Wallner and Larnach appear to be in two different rotations with each other. One must play and one must sit against left handed starters and they appear to be rotating. One must play RF and One must DH and they appear to be rotating there as well. 

Against right handers... Lee has sat once, Bader has sat twice, Castro injured for three and Larnach injured for one. 

The other 5 players Clemens and Bride are platoon partners. That appears to be a thing. 

The Catchers continue to basically rotate every other game despite a despite a .239 OPS difference between the two of them.

Keirsay has been on the roster for 10 games and has one start. 

The MLB average OPS this season is .714.

The Twins have a team OPS of .707. 

In the past 15 games (Basically since Lewis got himself injured). The Twins have a team of OPS of .726

The Twins have 3 players that are .509 OPS or lower. That's right .509. Got themselves roster spots though.   

Always interesting observations @Riverbrian. The promised change in catcher utilization never really came, did it? Vázquez had a nice road trip a while back, but has reverted to perhaps the worst offensive player regularly used in MLB.

While the team OPS is below average, it isn't below by much. It takes a lot of singles to score five runs when your team lacks both power and speed. With Jeffers in the lineup, they can put out a card with only everyone a good night away from a .700 OPS and three guys over .800. To me, that is an average-ish offense, but no depth (three guys with OPS .509 or lower).

 

[Riverbrian]

46 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

Always interesting observations @Riverbrian. The promised change in catcher utilization never really came, did it? Vázquez had a nice road trip a while back, but has reverted to perhaps the worst offensive player regularly used in MLB.

While the team OPS is below average, it isn't below by much. It takes a lot of singles to score five runs when your team lacks both power and speed. With Jeffers in the lineup, they can put out a card with only everyone a good night away from a .700 OPS and three guys over .800. To me, that is an average-ish offense, but no depth (three guys with OPS .509 or lower).

 

You touched on a couple of points that bug me a little. Not key to everything bug me but little things that bug me just a little.  

The nearly 50/50 split at the catching position bugs me a little. 

I understand that defensive value needs to be strongly considered at the catching position, However,  we are talking a rather large offensive difference between the two of them. Come playoff time, I doubt the split will be 50/50 and we have a little evidence to support that thought because... It wasn't two years ago. I'm not saying to completely bench Vazquez but I am saying that he could be dialed down while Jeffers gets dialed up.  

I understand that their might be value in keeping your catchers fresh over the 162 game schedule and a 50/50 rotation may help in that regard. However... not many teams (if any) are doing a 50/50 split at the position like the Twins have been doing for nearly 3 years straight now.

And here's the other thing. We have been incredibly healthy at the catcher position. What if that changes? Will Rocco go to a 50/50 split if Vazquez goes down and Jeffers is paired with Gasper or Camargo. I doubt it. In that scenerio... We might see Jeffers 4 out of 5. This just leads me to the question... How has Vazquez maintained his lofty position in the eyes of Rocco and the Front Office. 

The other thing that you brought up that bugs me and bugs me more than the catcher playing time split. As you mention... No Depth. Injuries will come and when they do... players with OPS under .509 will see a playing time increase. Spots 12 and 13 on the 26 man roster are not trusted to play and this leads to the cementing of average. Ty France has been fine... he's been close to average... he's had some key hits for us. But cementing of average with no one to push Ty France, means that he is playing every day out of necessity. That's a problem. Nobody to push Ty France for playing time is a problem. Ty France being basically not replaceable in the daily lineup is a problem.  

Yes... the team has been average offensively over the course of this season. Average isn't bad but it also isn't good. Average is fine if your pitching is above average... If your pitching stumbles... you'll need that average offense to step up to cover. Offensively we trying to land a muskie with 5 pound test fishing line. There is a good chance that it will snap. This team will have to keep focusing on panfish to sneak into a playoff spot.