Is Harrison Bader Precisely the Wrong Player for the Twins Right Now?

[NYCTK]

5 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

No one said this. 

It's certainly implied by the many, many comments I've seen about all the young talent being "blocked". 

Blocked, just like Austin Martin last season (and thank god HE got a chance). 

[Sjoski]

Instead of making bold moves to contend, this front office settles for mediocrity. Case in point: the latest signing—just another uninspiring addition to a roster that feels destined for irrelevance. The Twins seem content with doing just enough to stay afloat.

[DJL44]

11 hours ago, Otaknam said:

Dashawn Kiersey is still on the roster, with his speed and proclaimed elite defense

Please name one source inside baseball who has rated Keirsey's defense as elite - either on the Twins or a scout on another team. I'll wait.

[Mike Sixel]

22 minutes ago, Sjoski said:

Instead of making bold moves to contend, this front office settles for mediocrity. Case in point: the latest signing—just another uninspiring addition to a roster that feels destined for irrelevance. The Twins seem content with doing just enough to stay afloat.

The team is for sale. Also, Correa and Lopez would like to remind you that they do make bold moves sometimes. If they are instructed to stay afloat only, that's not on them....

[dxpavelka]

12 hours ago, Otaknam said:

Pretty harsh and sarcastic for some reason. 

more like spot on

 

[Fatbat]

13 hours ago, AlGoreRythm said:

Helman was sold to the Cardinals last week for cash considerations last week.

Yup. We basically dumped Helman for a 2yr $9M Bader contract.  Not exactly a Pohlad type salary dump. 

[TheLeviathan]

I agree.....Bader won't make everyone else not hit like garbage.  It's a high ask for 6M on the free agent market and I'm not sure he's up to it.

But we're over-thinking this move.  Martin can start in AAA.  Injuries will happen.  (Ya'll remember we have Carlos "No Feet" Correa and Byron "I've never met an injury I couldn't catch" Buxton...right?)  All I see Bader as is a floor raiser from Martin.  The Twins, as much as I'd like them too, were never going to patch 6M with 6M and another 5M from the Pohlad's coin holder in their limo and sign an actual talent.  It sorta is what it is.  If we're shopping at Dollar General, this guy fits some needs.  

[twinstalker]

Headline question has been my question.  Basically, Twins need to sign a couple corner guys now and see if they can trade Julien, Paddack, and the catcher.  A lot to do still.

[DJL44]

6 hours ago, twinstalker said:

Headline question has been my question.  Basically, Twins need to sign a couple corner guys now and see if they can trade Julien, Paddack, and the catcher.  A lot to do still.

There are surprisingly a lot of free agent starting pitchers still on the market (Pivetta, Heaney, Kyle Gibson, Lance Lynn, Quantrill) which can't help them with trading Paddack. At this point, teams are going to want to make sure players are able to play in spring training before they make a deal.

[Doctor Wu]

15 hours ago, Blyleven2011 said:

Helman was traded for cash so twins could have a roster spot on the 40 man roster for coloumbe  , then the dfa'd henrique to make room for Bader  , 

We have a full 40 man roster , ecerytime we add a major league player , we have to let a younger player go ...

Henrique is gone too? I missed that one. 

[andrewberg]

23 hours ago, dxpavelka said:

Nicely done.  You nailed the issue without even knowing.  Basically you said that Bader isn't a good fit because he does nothing to change the fact that:  "This team’s lineup is riddled with hitters who are hard to rely on."  The fact that Bader doesn't fix that is not the issue.  In the old days of journalism that would have been called burying the lead.  You also mentioned that: (if the) "Twins don't get bounce-backs from their young players who struggled down the stretch, Bader could be a frustrating piece amid a sputtering offense."  Again, in that case, the issue is not Bader.  The issue is the lack of bounce-backs from  their young players who struggled down the stretch.  Burying the lead again.  This reads like Derek Falvey wrote it.

Those must have been some pretty extreme old days of journalism, because the phrase is "burying the lede." 

[TwinsDr2021]

1 hour ago, Doctor Wu said:

Henrique is gone too? I missed that one. 

 

[dxpavelka]

40 minutes ago, andrewberg said:

Those must have been some pretty extreme old days of journalism, because the phrase is "burying the lede." 

Thank you Miriam Webster.  The point remains the same.

[DJL44]

6 minutes ago, dxpavelka said:

Thank you Miriam Webster.  The point remains the same.

Thanks for that malapropism 

[JD-TWINS]

19 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Lots of teams promote rookies before they fully prove themselves. And let them work thru early struggles....

Lots of teams that don’t have any options ahead of them and more typically, aren’t competing for a Division title. There are 13 spots - not some infinite number of spots to create opportunity.

[JD-TWINS]

19 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Wallner sat in AAA and watched Gallo. Utterly dominated when he finally came up. I can't think of one young guy that came up where there was a veteran in place and healthy. 

How many games did Gallo start at 1B? There was nobody else available - Wallner couldn’t do it…….. context is always good. Not a Gallo fan but he played 4 positions throughout ‘23. He was kept around due to $11M sunk BUT he also filled defensive holes through the season.

[Doctor Gast]

11 hours ago, Fatbat said:

Yup. We basically dumped Helman for a 2yr $9M Bader contract.  Not exactly a Pohlad type salary dump. 

If they pick up his 2nd year that's another $10M.

[Doctor Gast]

23 hours ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

Why was this done? What was the point of selling Helman?

The advantage of a Helman was if Buxton got hurt you could bring him up & be that RH bat that the Twins have to have & when Buxton comes back, Helman goes down. Bader, you are stuck with him & his salary. hell or high waters like Margot.

[Bob Twins Fan Since 61]

23 hours ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

Why was this done? What was the point of selling Helman?

Two players had to come off 40-man roster after the two FA signings.  Helman, was deemed has one of them.  Reviewing their roster, he seemed a logical choice.

[NYCTK]

55 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

If they pick up his 2nd year that's another $10M.

Technically it's another $8.5 on top of the $6.25 he's guaranteed. 

 

36 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

The advantage of a Helman was if Buxton got hurt you could bring him up & be that RH bat that the Twins have to have & when Buxton comes back, Helman goes down. Bader, you are stuck with him & his salary. hell or high waters like Margot.

The disadvantage is Helman's a much worse player. Essentially worthless, as we saw in his recent trade. 

If you value roster flexibility over baseball ability the White Sox also started spring training this week. 

[Riverbrian]

I have been complaining about the signing of Bader since he was signed... But I want to be clear... I'm not complaining about Bader specifically.

I'm complaining about the Twins process that makes Bader necessary. I'm complaining about not only the need for a CF with a glove but the need to find someone to take AB's away from Wallner and Larnach. I'm complaining about spending 6.5 million on what Bader brings to the club that we can't live without when we actually can. I'm complaining about the need to find another Bader next year when the mutual option is declined by the club next off-season and it will be declined.  

I'm not anti-defense even though I spend a lot of time talking about offense. CF needs a rangy guy who can get to balls that others cant... I understand this. Bader is one of us now and I'll be cheering for him and I'm hoping that Bader at least provides that defensive ability that the CF position requires. I think the team needs to add speed because we have a long ways to go in that department and I think Bader provides some of that. 

But... 6.5 million for a guy who is going to hit below average. Surely there must be some good defensive CF's who also can't hit who can make the minimum. 

His defense better damn good!!! 

[NYCTK]

3 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

I have been complaining about the signing of Bader since he was signed... But I want to be clear... I'm not complaining about Bader specifically.

I'm complaining about the Twins process that makes Bader necessary. I'm complaining about not only the need for a CF with a glove but the need to find someone to take AB's away from Wallner and Larnach. I'm complaining about spending 6.5 million on what Bader brings to the club that we can't live without when we actually can. I'm complaining about the need to find another Bader next year when the mutual option is declined by the club next off-season and it will be declined.  

I'm not anti-defense even though I spend a lot of time talking about offense. CF needs a rangy guy who can get to balls that others cant... I understand this. Bader is one of us now and I'll be cheering for him and I'm hoping that Bader at least provides that defensive ability that the CF position requires. I think the team needs to add speed because we have a long ways to go in that department and I think Bader provides some of that. 

But... 6.5 million for a guy who is going to hit below average. Surely there must be some good defensive CF's who also can't hit who can make the minimum. 

His defense better damn good!!! 

It's not the Twins Process that makes Bader necessary. 

Byron Buxton not being able to play more than 55% of a season makes Bader necessary. 

Trevor Larnach, Matt Wallner, and Austin Martin all being incapable of playing a competent OF make Bader necessary. 

I also think everyone here is just completely out of touch with what players make. $6.25 M for a player that is expected to play something like 100 games and 400 PAs, even with only about 1 WAR, is a fair price. 

[Riverbrian]

34 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

It's not the Twins Process that makes Bader necessary. 

Byron Buxton not being able to play more than 55% of a season makes Bader necessary. 

Trevor Larnach, Matt Wallner, and Austin Martin all being incapable of playing a competent OF make Bader necessary. 

I also think everyone here is just completely out of touch with what players make. $6.25 M for a player that is expected to play something like 100 games and 400 PAs, even with only about 1 WAR, is a fair price. 

The Twins are not going to bid against themselves. The fact that he signed for 6.5 million makes it a fair price. When I say 6.25 million... please understand that I'm not complaining about the market price for Bader. Free Agents cost what they cost. When you can't develop your own... you must pay for someone developed by another organization. 

Right Now... Harrison Bader is our 7th highest paid player. That's the cost for not developing your own. Bader's presence means that we are probably going to sign his replacement next year for once again market price.   

You are right... Bader as Buxton insurance means that Buxton costs more than 14 Million. He now costs 20 million because Buxton makes Bader necessary. Wallner not being able to hit left handed pitching makes Bader necessary. So... Wallner no longer costs the minimum he now costs the minimum plus 6.25 for Bader. 

I've done this before, I'll do it again. Leaving the 40 man out of it. 26 Roster spots and 130 Million payroll is 5 million per. If you add the money that Correa, Lopez, Buxton and Vazquez are drawing out of the kitty for roster spots this year. That's 84 million. That leaves 46 million for 22 Roster Spots.

Once you factor in Correa, Lopez, Buxton and Vazquez. Bader's 6.25 million is approximately 3 roster spots in value and he is just Buxton insurance, he is just the handcuff that keeps Wallner from developing into someone that doesn't require a Bader handcuffed to him. 

I'm not going to list any specific names... I don't do that. I won't pretend to know what Keirsay, Helman or what anybody is going to be and I really don't pay much attention to those who claim to know what they will or could be. I'm not going to talk about those guys specifically when I say... if defense is the reason that Bader is necessary and worth 6.25 million of money that we don't have. Surely, there is someone out there who can play defense in CF and also CAN'T HIT who will make the minimum.

His Defense better be DAMN Good!  

This team needs to develop or die. Pete Alonso ain't coming. It's the process. 

[RpR]

3 hours ago, JD-TWINS said:

How many games did Gallo start at 1B? There was nobody else available - Wallner couldn’t do it…….. context is always good. Not a Gallo fan but he played 4 positions throughout ‘23. He was kept around due to $11M sunk BUT he also filled defensive holes through the season.

Gallo had 51 games at First Base, 51 games in Left Field, 11 games in Center Field and 10 games in Right Field.

His best numbers were actually in Center Field.

[NYCTK]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

I've done this before, I'll do it again. Leaving the 40 man out of it. 26 Roster spots and 130 Million payroll is 5 million per. If you add the money that Correa, Lopez, Buxton and Vazquez are drawing out of the kitty for roster spots this year. That's 84 million. That leaves 46 million for 22 Roster Spots.

Half of your players should be making the minimum or players like bullpen arms that are around the minimum. Let's say $15M for half your roster (Twins are actually under that at about $12.5 I think). Even with a modest $145M Payroll, that's $10M per non arb or near min player. 

Would it be preferable to be able to develop a great glove 85 OPS+ guy? Sure, and they thought they might have that with Austin Martin but unfortunately he sucks. As do/would all the other internal options. So a very necessary 4th OF that you expect to play 100+ games making 6.25M is not some travesty. 

And in the event the Twins fall out of contention, they can easily trade him away. 

[Riverbrian]

2 hours ago, NYCTK said:

Half of your players should be making the minimum or players like bullpen arms that are around the minimum. Let's say $15M for half your roster (Twins are actually under that at about $12.5 I think). Even with a modest $145M Payroll, that's $10M per non arb or near min player. 

Would it be preferable to be able to develop a great glove 85 OPS+ guy? Sure, and they thought they might have that with Austin Martin but unfortunately he sucks. As do/would all the other internal options. So a very necessary 4th OF that you expect to play 100+ games making 6.25M is not some travesty. 

And in the event the Twins fall out of contention, they can easily trade him away. 

Bullpen is going to cost 13.5 million this season. That's 8 spots out of 26.

With Correa, Buxton, Lopez and Vazquez taking up 84 Million. Add the 8 spots to those 4 and 13.5 to the 84 million. 

We are now at 32.5 million dollars left for 14 roster spots. Bader is still costing approximately 3 players at 2 million per. Regardless... the math is going to keep working the way it does... even if we add in the starting rotation cost and take it down to what's left for 9 players... the math is going to keep working the way it does. You get the point I'm making.  

On the other hand... When you ask the question... "Would it be preferable to be able to develop a great glove 85 OPS+ Guy". I'm not sure you get the point I'm making.

I'm reminded of Jonah Hill in Moneyball... Are those my only two options? One of the greatest sentences ever typed on this website came from Mike Sixel when he said... It's a dial... not a switch. Why must the pre-arb player produce better than an 85+ and signing the 6.25 million 86+ guy is just fine. 

The answer to your question is No. It would be preferable to develop at least an average hitter who is a great defender or if we are lucky... hopefully better than average average hitter who is a great defender and then we got someone who can play CF when Buxton can't for the minimum in 2026 and we don't have to pay 6.25 million next year for the next Bader. .  

The answer to your question is also Yes: If 85 OPS+ is what happens... Bummer... I was hoping for better... However... at least that player can be sent down if he needs it. And at least we are not paying 6.25 million to someone who produced an 86 OPS+ and a career 91 OPS+ and won't be released. The Twins don't release players making 6.25 million.  

Trade at the deadline? Maybe... After we eat two million of it... Someone might take the remaining 2 million for this year and the 1.5 million buyout and offer up a low A player in return. Someone may not.,, Keep in mind that we probably won a bidding war to acquire him... which means that we are already paying him more than other are willing to pay him. Regardless how he plays in 2025 will go along way to answering that question.

However... How we escape from Bader isn't my worry. It's the process. 

Develop or Die... Pete Alonso isn't coming.          

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

Surely, there is someone out there who can play defense in CF and also CAN'T HIT who will make the minimum.

Michael A Taylor is still available. Christian Pache signed a minor league contract.

[NYCTK]

21 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

On the other hand... When you ask the question... "Would it be preferable to be able to develop a great glove 85 OPS+ Guy". I'm not sure you get the point I'm making.

I'm reminded of Jonah Hill in Moneyball... Are those my only two options? One of the greatest sentences ever typed on this website came from Mike Sixel when he said... It's a dial... not a light switch. Why must the pre-arb player produce better than an 85+ and signing the 6.25 million 86+ guy is just fine. 

The answer to your question is No. It would be preferable to develop at least an average hitter who is a great defender or if we are lucky... hopefully better than average average hitter who is a great defender and then we got someone who can play CF when Buxton can't for the minimum in 2026 and we don't have to pay 6.25 million next year for the next Bader. .  

I understand the frustration that the Twins have failed to develop a competent Buxton backup, but they have failed. And so have a lot of teams have. The internal pre-arb guy with an 85 OPS+ isn't nearly as good as Bader because none of them can play the position nearly as well.  

Yeah, it would be incredible if the Twins could develop a 100 OPS+ CF with plus defense. But that's a 4 WAR player. So, let's be reasonable. 

If I could wave a wand and make Austin Martin not suck in CF, that'd be incredible. But that's not happening. 

 

[NYCTK]

42 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

The answer to your question is also Yes: If 85 OPS+ is what happens... Bummer... I was hoping for better... However... at least that player can be sent down if he needs it. And at least we are not paying 6.25 million to someone who produced an 86 OPS+ and a career 91 OPS+ and won't be released. The Twins don't release players making 6.25 million.  

I just don't understand this Twins fan desire to constantly save the Pohlads money while wanting to rotate through terrible players instead. 

 

[USAFChief]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

Bullpen is going to cost 13.5 million this season. That's 8 spots out of 26.

With Correa, Buxton, Lopez and Vazquez taking up 84 Million. Add the 8 spots to those 4 and 13.5 to the 84 million. 

We are now at 32.5 million dollars left for 14 roster spots. Bader is still costing approximately 3 players at 2 million per. Regardless... the math is going to keep working the way it does... even if we add in the starting rotation cost and take it down to what's left for 9 players... the math is going to keep working the way it does. You get the point I'm making.  

On the other hand... When you ask the question... "Would it be preferable to be able to develop a great glove 85 OPS+ Guy". I'm not sure you get the point I'm making.

I'm reminded of Jonah Hill in Moneyball... Are those my only two options? One of the greatest sentences ever typed on this website came from Mike Sixel when he said... It's a dial... not a light switch. Why must the pre-arb player produce better than an 85+ and signing the 6.25 million 86+ guy is just fine. 

The answer to your question is No. It would be preferable to develop at least an average hitter who is a great defender or if we are lucky... hopefully better than average average hitter who is a great defender and then we got someone who can play CF when Buxton can't for the minimum in 2026 and we don't have to pay 6.25 million next year for the next Bader. .  

The answer to your question is also Yes: If 85 OPS+ is what happens... Bummer... I was hoping for better... However... at least that player can be sent down if he needs it. And at least we are not paying 6.25 million to someone who produced an 86 OPS+ and a career 91 OPS+ and won't be released. The Twins don't release players making 6.25 million.  

Trade at the deadline? Maybe... After we eat two million of it... Someone might take the remaining 2 million for this year and the 1.5 million buyout and offer up a low A player in return. Someone may not.,, Keep in mind that we probably won a bidding war to acquire him... which means that we are already paying him more than other are willing to pay him. Regardless how he plays in 2025 will go along way to answering that question.

However... How we escape from Bader isn't my worry. It's the process. 

Develop or Die... Pete Alonso isn't coming.          

You keep saying this, why aren't you demanding a new front office?

One that develops.