Who is keeping Camargo out of the lineup?

[LA Vikes Fan]

25 minutes ago, DocBauer said:

I'm hoping Keirsey is a solid, late bloomer. He's really found his game the last year or so, and is off to a good start this season at AAA. But he's not on the 40  man. So you have to DFA someone or move yet another someone to the 60 day IL to add and promote him. 

You're right, but I'm beginning to think that time isn't far off. Maybe when Duran comes back we DFA Bowman to create room. Maybe it's time to test the market for a dump of Santana, Margot or Farmer. Maybe now is the time to put Lewis on the 60 day - he isn't coming back before June any way -  and give Keirsey a shot. 

My bottom line - no more significant playing time for Santana or Magot, and same for Farmer once Correa comes back. They are defensive substitutions or "give a starter a day off" guys along with Castro. Play Miranda, Kirilloff, Camargo, Martin, Julien, and I would include Keirsey, and play them almost every day. Let's see what you got NOW. We won't be full strength before June 1. Take the next 6 weeks and revamp this roster. What we tried didn't work. Admit the mistakes, explore your options, and figure out what we got. Do it now, not two months from now when the season is already lost.  

[nicksaviking]

32 minutes ago, DocBauer said:

I'm hoping Keirsey is a solid, late bloomer. He's really found his game the last year or so, and is off to a good start this season at AAA. But he's not on the 40  man. So you have to DFA someone or move yet another someone to the 60 day IL to add and promote him. 

Oh, I've got a list.

And it's starting to get pretty long.

[Parfigliano]

23 minutes ago, LA VIkes Fan said:

This. Severino isn't hitting at all in AAA so Camargo was effectively the only choice. Still, he's here so why not give him 10-15 ABs while he's up instead of making Vasquez a DH? Who knows, we might catch lightning in a bottle. It's not like we got anyone else to play any way and Larnach can go back to AAA when Kepler is ready. Give them both some ABs and let the better hitter win. 

Vasquez DHing over Camargo is everything wrong with this team in a nutshell.

[stringer bell]

With all the injuries, Camargo was the only real choice on the 40-man roster. It appears the Twins front office and coaching staff don't see anything there that can help the big league team. I'm glad Camargo got in a game, but won't be at all surprised if he is sent out when Kepler is activated. 

[Rosterman]

I was actually surprised he wasn't catching Simeon to start that second game of the double header. Someone who was familiar with the pitcher.

If nothing else, switch him out to catch, say, Bowman, while both are still in the majors.

And, if the game is a blowout.......

The evils of having so many guys from the 40-man on the IL-list in BOTH the majors and minors. Of course, that could be changed really really fast if you cut bait with at least three guys on the major league roster once people get healthy...nevermind.

But glad he got in a game. Unlike, say, Soto a couple of seasons back who collected major league pay for... what ....three days while sitting on the bench.

[JD-TWINS]

1 hour ago, DocBauer said:

I think we've clearly established the "why" he's there. Other than Emma...and you're not starting his clock a this point by promoting him from AA...you've got Severino and Camargo. Every single other position player you might promote would need to be added to the 40 man. So now you've got to release someone, or, put yet another player on the 60 day IL.

So Camargo gives you catching insurance. OK. Understood. Probably the best of the remaining options available.

But considering Camargo is on the 40 man,  considering he spent all but a day or two with the Twins in ST, considering he played in 9 games in ST, you'd THINK he has some ability behind the plate. We've seen he's got some bat ability. So the only reason he's not getting a chance to play over the veteran but POORLY performing Vazquez is stubborness. 

If the kid is good enough to be on your 40 man, and good enough to get a promotion, then he's good enough to get a chance to play, get introduced to the ML level, and see what he can do. What's he going to do at this point, produce worse than Vazquez?

Camargo might only be here as that last man on the bench for a week until being sent down again. So MAYBE the thinking is, just no sense to play the new guy when he's going to be gone right away. But that's incredibly short sighted no matter what angle you take to examine the situation.

When the Team isn’t winning, I’m not reaching and sitting the guy I know is going to catch at least 70 games for me this season to HOPE a rookie can get a hit, before he’s sent back down as guy’s get healthy over the next 10 days. Vazquez top 10-12 defensively in ‘23 - right or am I way off? …….compared to “Camargo must be able to catch”……..”let’s give him a shot” ……..it’s not Legion Ball and Camargo is a Sophomore. I might let him travel with the Legion Team in case a guy gets hurt - that’s it though.

If we’re up late 7-1, he’s in there. Down big as in Baltimore, he should be in there.

[twins_89]

I'd give Camargo a few games in place of Vasquez and see what he does. Right now playing a guy who might struggle is a huge improvement over a guy who has definitely shown he can't hit.

[jkcarew]

If the sole purpose is so that you can DH Jeffers when he’s not catching (not that I agree with that necessity)…then Carmargo needs to be on the active roster for the foreseeable future. Malpractice to put anyone other than Jeffers in the DH spot right now when he isn’t catching.

I suspect this to be the case…otherwise he would have caught in place of Vasquez in the last game. Right?

Whatever the case, it looks awkward and silly…like most things so far.

[Road trip]

They aren't playing him because if they played him, and he somehow got a few hits, they would have to keep playing him.  🙃   

Rocco's plans are written on stone tablets, and shall not be changed!  Can't afford to risk messing with the preseason plan to share catching duties between Jeffers and Vasquez. 

[stringer bell]

BTW, I remain very skeptical of Triple A stats. Too many guys rake at St. Paul and can't buy a hit in the majors. 

[Riverbrian]

14 hours ago, stringer bell said:

BTW, I remain very skeptical of Triple A stats. Too many guys rake at St. Paul and can't buy a hit in the majors. 

That's understandable.

But... the follow up question to that is this: 

What will it take to remove that skepticism of an individual player? 

Every year... there are X amount of vet players bouncing out of the majors due to non-tenders, retirements etc. Those players will have to be replaced by players with those Triple A stats. They are not all Jackson Holliday hyped players filling these roster spots.

How does a 19th round pick, unranked on any prospect list, who hit .313 BA and 30 home runs in AAA like Kerry Carpenter remove that skepticism? 

How does a 19th round pick like Edouard Julien, who had a real nice year in AA remove that skepticism? 

When do you feel better about a new player? 

[Mike Sixel]

On 4/18/2024 at 3:12 PM, stringer bell said:

BTW, I remain very skeptical of Triple A stats. Too many guys rake at St. Paul and can't buy a hit in the majors. 

They can only do what they can do.....so I'm not sure how to judge them?

[stringer bell]

On 4/19/2024 at 8:18 AM, Riverbrian said:

That's understandable.

But... the follow up question to that is this: 

What will it take to remove that skepticism of an individual player? 

Every year... there are X amount of vet players bouncing out of the majors due to non-tenders, retirements etc. Those players will have to be replaced by players with those Triple A stats. They are not all Jackson Holliday hyped players filling these roster spots.

How does a 19th round pick, unranked on any prospect list, who hit .313 BA and 30 home runs in AAA like Kerry Carpenter remove that skepticism? 

How does a 19th round pick like Edouard Julien, who had a real nice year in AA remove that skepticism? 

When do you feel better about a new player? 

I think that the deeper numbers need to agree with (for hitters) high BA and OPS. The contact profile needs to remain strong, with a minimum of grounders. The BABIP should also be in line the the basic numbers rather than taking a huge jump. Velocity of the batted balls also needs to be strong. 

Pitchers need to get lots of swings and misses and ground balls. Pitch velocity is important. 

[stringer bell]

Camargo's first big league stint with the Twins is probably over. He didn't show anything to me that said that he's more than the third catcher on a two-catcher team. He'll probably get another chance or two this year. I hope he shows more, but from what I saw there is no reason to clear playing time for him.

[Parfigliano]

43 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

Camargo's first big league stint with the Twins is probably over. He didn't show anything to me that said that he's more than the third catcher on a two-catcher team. He'll probably get another chance or two this year. I hope he shows more, but from what I saw there is no reason to clear playing time for him.

He has less then 10 ABs he should be given more to make an impression as to what he does or doesnt have.

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, stringer bell said:

Camargo's first big league stint with the Twins is probably over. He didn't show anything to me that said that he's more than the third catcher on a two-catcher team. He'll probably get another chance or two this year. I hope he shows more, but from what I saw there is no reason to clear playing time for him.

Less than ten at bats and you've decided? I have no idea, but this seems premature. He's going down when Kepler comes back anyway

[Riverbrian]

1 hour ago, stringer bell said:

I think that the deeper numbers need to agree with (for hitters) high BA and OPS. The contact profile needs to remain strong, with a minimum of grounders. The BABIP should also be in line the the basic numbers rather than taking a huge jump. Velocity of the batted balls also needs to be strong. 

Pitchers need to get lots of swings and misses and ground balls. Pitch velocity is important. 

You'll need a decent sized sample to feel comfortable. 

[Riverbrian]

1 hour ago, stringer bell said:

Camargo's first big league stint with the Twins is probably over. He didn't show anything to me that said that he's more than the third catcher on a two-catcher team. He'll probably get another chance or two this year. I hope he shows more, but from what I saw there is no reason to clear playing time for him.

That's harsh

 

[RpR]

2 hours ago, stringer bell said:

Camargo's first big league stint with the Twins is probably over. He didn't show anything to me that said that he's more than the third catcher on a two-catcher team. He'll probably get another chance or two this year. I hope he shows more, but from what I saw there is no reason to clear playing time for him.

He will get other chances but right now is not the time for the Twins to take the place of AAA.

[JD-TWINS]

On 4/18/2024 at 5:43 PM, Road trip said:

They aren't playing him because if they played him, and he somehow got a few hits, they would have to keep playing him.  🙃   

Rocco's plans are written on stone tablets, and shall not be changed!  Can't afford to risk messing with the preseason plan to share catching duties between Jeffers and Vasquez. 

Gotta handle pitchers - know hitters - throw people out………..Vazquez is top 10-12 guys defensively right now out of the probably 70 guys catching total, spread over 30 teams. That’s his value - that, & the fact that he can hit just as well as Camargo. The offense is unfortunate to say the least. Yesterday, 4/20, Camargo was DH and I might as well have DHed………not ready for prime time!

[IndianaTwin]

On 4/18/2024 at 12:04 PM, USAFChief said:

I don't think anyone from the front office to the manager really wants Camargo on the Twins 26 man roster, but the rules say you gotta have 26, and the 40 man options available were Camargo, Yunior Severino, and Emmanuel Rodriguez.

Rodriguez is probably not an option (in AA).

So one of Severino or Camargo was going to come up, get MLB meal money,  minimum salary, and great seats for a few games. The Twins will effectively play with 12 position players until someone comes off the IL.

When major league pitching staffs take 13 roster spots, one of the unfortunate side effects is pitchers are also going to eat up a huge part of your 40 man. Particularly when a working philosophy is to shuttle relievers back and forth from AAA at the drop of a hat. Position player options get limited quickly.

I'll take this a step further and say that the Twins don't really want him on the 40-man roster either until Jeffers or Vazquez is hurt. With the two of them healthy, there wasn't another catcher on the 40-man all of last season. I don't remember prior years, but I think the overall principle was the same. A catcher wasn't added to the 40-man until he was needed.

But they had to add Camargo last winter or lose him, and I think they like him well enough that they decided to keep him on the 40-man as a known quantity with some level of potential vs. signing the second coming of Drew Butera to a minor league deal. 

Folks are right in naming that Vazquez has sucked. Another reality is that when you are not hitting, defense becomes even more of a premium, so I'm guessing there's reluctance to have even a perceived decline in the defense from Vazquez to Camargo, when every run allowed is so valuable.

Yeah, giving him some defensive innings in the blowout with Baltimore made some sense, but not in the second game of the doubleheader. That was the game Jeffers actually caught.

 

[RpR]

Who is keeping Camargo out of the lineup?

Camargo.