Royals 11, Twins 0: Ober Struggles as Twins Fall Flat in Pursuit of Sweep

[Schmoeman5]

4 hours ago, jmlease1 said:

why? because he's not Buxton? He didn't come up with the incredible catches today, but I don't think that would have saved us. He's a good OF, but those catches against the wall weren't run of the mill.

There were at least 3 plays where Martin showed he's not a good OF. And watching him during ST the results were similar.

[Schmoeman5]

2 hours ago, rv78 said:

Really? That's like throwing in the towel and giving up, NO? That's like saying, well the Royals can score 10 runs in 3 innings but we can't so...., I give. You win. Why not just walk off the field and say we forfeit. Save your bullpen pitchers for another game. No point in showing any confidence in your players to do the same that has just been done to you. Rocco loves to give games away. Has always done it, always will. Late pulling a pitcher and early pulling, supposedly, your best hitters. Evidently when you are down 10 runs after 3 innings there just isn't enough game left to make a comeback. Why try? Off day last Friday another one Monday. Isn't like they needed the rest. Say it continually, Rocco doesn't play his best players as much as he should. If you're scared their going to get hurt why play them at all? Poor Manager, managing poorly. 

Thank you.

[ashbury]

2 hours ago, USAFChief said:

Incredible catches? The triple from Witt would have been caught by most MLB CFers.

MAT comes to mind for sure.  I don't have an opinion on Margot as yet. 

We got spoiled last year with Taylor as backup, on the defensive side anyway.  It's not just range, not even the routes, it's the surehandedness to close the deal on a challenging fly ball like that one.  Martin tracked it okay but couldn't close the deal; maybe it's just a matter of more experience, particularly at the wall, but that attempt marked him for me as Not Ready If Ever.

[VivaBomboRivera!]

8 hours ago, ashbury said:

This one is in the running for worst game of the season so far.

[h2oface]

Ober's consistency carried over from ST. Many claim what happens in ST when a player is not competing for a lineup spot, doesn't matter. But I am in the group that thinks it does. Ober had a horrible ST. Not one clean outing in 5, and 5 homers in 13 innings, a 5.65 ERA, which only takes into account the 9 earned runs he gave up, and hides the other 5 unearned, so 14 runs in 13.0 innings. All while the articles mentioned were positioning him as a bonafide lock to be very very good and consistent. The first outing of the regular season was even worse. So yes, he has still been consistent in 2024, just consistently awful. Was he injured all ST? Color me concerned.

[Whitey333]

The offense really hasn't done much from spring training.  The giveaway games Rocco has each year started early this year.  That's my big beef with him.  It's Not losing some games it's his propensity to throw in the towel early and at times run out an inferior lineup.  A lot of us wont go to sunday home games because of this.  Anyway it is what it is.  I know spring training doesn't matter ( they keep telling us that) but they did finish with the second worst record in all of spring training.  Only the woeful White Sox had a worse record.  Let's see what happens by end of April.

[jmlease1]

1 hour ago, Whitey333 said:

The offense really hasn't done much from spring training.  The giveaway games Rocco has each year started early this year.  That's my big beef with him.  It's Not losing some games it's his propensity to throw in the towel early and at times run out an inferior lineup.  A lot of us wont go to sunday home games because of this.  Anyway it is what it is.  I know spring training doesn't matter ( they keep telling us that) but they did finish with the second worst record in all of spring training.  Only the woeful White Sox had a worse record.  Let's see what happens by end of April.

But this Sunday's lineup certainly wasn't a "getaway day" lineup: the only real change was Martin starting in CF to let Buxton DH; Castro was an injury replacement. The only "starter" that didn't play was Kepler, who is dealing with a knee after the foulball off it. So it wasn't an inferior lineup. And I'm willing to bet people would have jumped on Rocco for leaving Buxton and Correa in the game down 10-0 ("how dare Rocco leave 2 players with major injury history in the game and risk injury when the game is already over! Fire the manager, he's terrible!"). 

He pulled Correa in the bottom of the 5th and Buxton in the top of the 6th. Seems fine...unless you've already made up your mind that Rocco is a bad manager. Then, he can't possibly win in this situation.

[Daniel Anderson]

Early in ST Ober threw 95 in a game against the Phillies and Bryce Harper asked how anybody ever hits him. Seems that since then he has gotten consistently lit up. Varland pitched great, was named a starter, and since then has struggled. You wonder how much is mental, or if both are fighting injuries. On the good side, Pablo and Joe look locked in already.

[Schmoeman5]

2 hours ago, jmlease1 said:

But this Sunday's lineup certainly wasn't a "getaway day" lineup: the only real change was Martin starting in CF to let Buxton DH; Castro was an injury replacement. The only "starter" that didn't play was Kepler, who is dealing with a knee after the foulball off it. So it wasn't an inferior lineup. And I'm willing to bet people would have jumped on Rocco for leaving Buxton and Correa in the game down 10-0 ("how dare Rocco leave 2 players with major injury history in the game and risk injury when the game is already over! Fire the manager, he's terrible!"). 

He pulled Correa in the bottom of the 5th and Buxton in the top of the 6th. Seems fine...unless you've already made up your mind that Rocco is a bad manager. Then, he can't possibly win in this situation.

I don't think it was an inferior lineup. But I also don't advocate throwing in the towel in March. 3 games in and he's protecting his 2 studs. From what? Embarrassment? He went out to pull Pablo in game 1. Pablo shut it down. It sends the wrong message. If it were Aug or Sept and Rocco did It to give them a rest. OK.  I also don't think Rocco is a bad manager. I just don't happen to think he's a good manager either. 

[Mike Sixel]

14 hours ago, USAFChief said:

Speaking only for myself, I'm not blaming thr offense for giving up 11 runs today. However, I think it's fair to have concerns with the offense. 

this.

[Schmoeman5]

46 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

this.

What does "this" mean? Is it agreement or disagreement?

[Shaitan]

15 hours ago, RpR said:

IF they gave up ONE run, they would have lost still looking like they want to be strike out leader in 2024.

And they would have lost if they'd scored 10 runs.

[Shaitan]

15 hours ago, USAFChief said:

Speaking only for myself, I'm not blaming thr offense for giving up 11 runs today. However, I think it's fair to have concerns with the offense. 

You're allowed that take. I personally don't think it's fair to make any assumptions after 3 games. 

[RpR]

15 minutes ago, Shaitan said:

And they would have lost if they'd scored 10 runs.

No kidding?

[Mike Sixel]

14 minutes ago, Shaitan said:

You're allowed that take. I personally don't think it's fair to make any assumptions after 3 games. 

chief was concerned all off season.

[USAFChief]

36 minutes ago, Schmoeman5 said:

What does "this" mean? Is it agreement or disagreement?

Speaking only for myself...

 

Yes.

[Schmoeman5]

13 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Speaking only for myself...

 

Yes.

That is precisely what I was thinking. 

[ashbury]

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

Speaking only for myself...

 

Yes.

This.  Or that.

[jmlease1]

15 hours ago, ashbury said:

MAT comes to mind for sure.  I don't have an opinion on Margot as yet. 

We got spoiled last year with Taylor as backup, on the defensive side anyway.  It's not just range, not even the routes, it's the surehandedness to close the deal on a challenging fly ball like that one.  Martin tracked it okay but couldn't close the deal; maybe it's just a matter of more experience, particularly at the wall, but that attempt marked him for me as Not Ready If Ever.

You're really harsh on a rookie playing in his first game in the field in one of the larger outfields in baseball. And MAT won a Gold Glove (and should have won another); are we really at the point where we're ready to call judgment on a rookie after one game if he's not up to a Gold Glove standard in CF?

He's a quality fielder who unfortunately couldn't come up with the big play in his very first start. 

Holy cow. it's like the Twins went 0-3 in KC to start the season around here...

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

It is just one game, true. Can't read much into it. But, couldn't help but laugh when the Twins talked about a new attention to detail before day games - only to show up and be as lifeless and flat as ever. That one is a Rocco special.

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

When the Twins realize that they need a legitimate hitting coach instead of going with the cool kid in the class, then you might be some improvement from the offense. Popkins isn't the answer. He's tight with the players so there's that. But if anyone is expecting this guy to unlock the line-up or anything like that - you're going to be disappointed.

[h2oface]

16 hours ago, ashbury said:

MAT comes to mind for sure.  I don't have an opinion on Margot as yet. 

We got spoiled last year with Taylor as backup, on the defensive side anyway.  It's not just range, not even the routes, it's the surehandedness to close the deal on a challenging fly ball like that one.  Martin tracked it okay but couldn't close the deal; maybe it's just a matter of more experience, particularly at the wall, but that attempt marked him for me as Not Ready If Ever.

Martin bounced off the wall pretty good without getting hurt. There's that.

[RpR]

2 hours ago, jmlease1 said:

You're really harsh on a rookie playing in his first game in the field in one of the larger outfields in baseball. And MAT won a Gold Glove (and should have won another); are we really at the point where we're ready to call judgment on a rookie after one game if he's not up to a Gold Glove standard in CF?

He's a quality fielder who unfortunately couldn't come up with the big play in his very first start. 

Holy cow. it's like the Twins went 0-3 in KC to start the season around here...

HE was sent to AAA because that is where he belongs to learn how to play Major League ball.

Quality -- he has played a total of 26 outfield games in AAA with far from stellar numbers; he may by logging more time in AAA get pretty good, odds are against him.

[Danchat]

19 minutes ago, RpR said:

HE was sent to AAA because that is where he belongs to learn how to play Major League ball.

Quality -- he has played a total of 26 outfield games in AAA with far from stellar numbers; he may by logging more time in AAA get pretty good, odds are against him.

The real issue has been that the majority of Austin Martin's minor league development has been spent at SS first and 2B second... just for the team to realize what was apparent on the scouting report when we acquired him, he is a butcher at SS and his home is likely in the outfield. So then they didn't give him very much OF experience, and that's how we got here. 

[Schmoeman5]

2 hours ago, jmlease1 said:

You're really harsh on a rookie playing in his first game in the field in one of the larger outfields in baseball. And MAT won a Gold Glove (and should have won another); are we really at the point where we're ready to call judgment on a rookie after one game if he's not up to a Gold Glove standard in CF?

He's a quality fielder who unfortunately couldn't come up with the big play in his very first start. 

Holy cow. it's like the Twins went 0-3 in KC to start the season around here...

There's different descriptions of quality. There's usda select, choice, and prime. When it comes to the OF Martin would be considered select. He had a terrible jump on a bloop base hit. He turned a routine single into a double with a throw that was 10' short of the bag and the triple which should have been caught. He was there. He did not look comfortable at all. In spring training he got turned around several times on balls hit deep. So no. He's not a good defensive option in the OF. Just because someone is a good athlete does not mean they can play out there. Lewis Lee Martin and others have been mentioned numerous times. Hey. Just put them in the outfield. It's not that simple. 

[ashbury]

3 hours ago, jmlease1 said:

You're really harsh on a rookie playing in his first game in the field in one of the larger outfields in baseball. And MAT won a Gold Glove (and should have won another); are we really at the point where we're ready to call judgment on a rookie after one game if he's not up to a Gold Glove standard in CF?

He's a quality fielder who unfortunately couldn't come up with the big play in his very first start. 

Holy cow. it's like the Twins went 0-3 in KC to start the season around here...

My post was full of my usual annoying qualifiers (if, maybe, don't have an opinion), and I explicitly said MAT spoiled us last season, so to say "call judgment" seems like an overreaction.  I left lots of room for the possibility Martin improves in center - but the man just turned 25 years of age so it's not as high a likelihood as someone younger.  Perhaps another Gold Glove type of player right there in the same clubhouse can mentor him.

Teams with intentions toward contention should keep the caliber of play we saw on Sunday in CF to a minimum.  Martin's stylings on defense didn't by itself cost the game on Sunday, but in a closer game it could have. 

If this were a rebuilding year for the Twins I probably would feel differently; but we've all been through enough of those seasons, by now.  Learning the ropes in CF needs to occur in the minors and it's regrettable if that hasn't happened for him yet.  If Martin was part of the team's off-season depth plan at CF, they seem to have seriously misjudged, for the opening series anyway.  Or else their intentions are just pretensions of contention. 

[wabene]

2 out of 3 in KC to open. Not bad, par. The kind of par where you miss an eight footer for birdie, lol, but a par nonetheless.

To be fair the wins were quality wins that were very enjoyable to watch. Glad I missed the third game, lol.