Key Minnesota Twins Who Are Out of Minor-League Options This Spring

[Riverbrian]

4 hours ago, DJL44 said:

The Twins have several veteran players with 1 season of team control remaining (Kepler, DeSclafani, Thielbar, Margot, Farmer, Santana). Those players are pretty easy to trade off at the deadline.

I'd say easy to give away at the trade deadline. 

If the Twins are in contention and those players are performing. The player with options is going back down. 

If the Twins are in contention and those players need to be replaced by a player with options. They are not performing very well and other teams in contention will not want them and teams not in contention won't want them either because what's the point.  

Only if the Twins are not in contention and those players are performing will they be easy to move. 😉

 

[Riverbrian]

3 hours ago, jorgenswest said:

How close can Helman or Martin or Lee come to replacing the production of Farmer?

This is the million dollar question... or should I say... the $720,000 question. 

[Riverbrian]

3 hours ago, DJL44 said:

That would stunt the growth of your prospects AND make sure you don't have any depth when some of them inevitably fail to meet expectations. Then you'd be searching the waiver wire for discarded veterans.

I don't see what you are saying. It wouldn't stunt the growth of your prospects... it would at the very least... start the growth of your prospects if they are going to grow.  

I understand the depletion of depth point you are making and I think that is a very valid concern.... However... I think what Jorgenswest is saying is what will the margin of production difference actually be between a struggling Margot and what Helman produces. Helman could be eventually better... Margot will eventually be gone.

I think he is saying that Hoskins and (Helman or Martin or Lee) might be better for two 26 man roster spots than using two spots on Santana and Margot. 

I agree with him... if that is what he is saying.

If that is not what he is saying. Cue Emily Litella. 

   

[nicksaviking]

39 minutes ago, Shaitan said:

Alternate take: every single day is competition for a roster spot.

See: Pipp, Wally

Is it? Are Santana, Margot, Farmer and Vazquez really competing against anyone? Does anyone really see the team DFA'ing any of these guys before August if they 'lose' the competition?

[Riverbrian]

3 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

Yeah, that's the goal. The problem though is that the last two years Miranda (2022), Lewis, Julien and Wallner all came up when the vet in front of them got injured. When the vet came back there was room to keep them because the team just sent Larnach, Kirilloff, Cave, Garlick and Miranda (2023) down to St. Paul.

Can't do that this year as there aren't enough players with options. So now what happens if Lee or whomever is raking at the majors and helping the team win games? They're going to get sent back down anyway when the vet returns.

Yep... that's how it has always worked. 

Options are powerful thing. If a player has options, they can be stored for rainy days. There is no reason to decrease your talent pool by one when a player has options.

However... you should decrease your talent pool if a player (without options on an expiring contract) is struggling while the injury replacement is earning the job. That's how it needs to work but the Twins have been kind of slow to pull this particular trigger. 

If Wallner gets called up when Gallo gets injured. If Wallner is looking good out there and Gallo was struggling before injury. You decrease that talent pool by one by sending Gallo packing.

If Gallo was doing well before getting hurt and Wallner also does well. Wallner might be earning a spot but he must go back down because options remaining are a powerful thing.

If service time and options were not such a prominent thing in the CBA. We'd have a lot more 22 year old and 23 year olds on rosters on every major league team and whole bunch less 30 plus dudes. 

[jorgenswest]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

This is the million dollar question... or should I say... the $720,000 question. 

Yes and one I need to stop asking. This is March. The Twins roster is pretty set. It is time to enjoy the game of baseball.

[Riverbrian]

1 minute ago, jorgenswest said:

Yes and one I need to stop asking. This is March. The Twins roster is pretty set. It is time to enjoy the game of baseball.

Yep... While I agree with what you area saying. The Die has been cast. The Past is the past and it's the future that lies ahead. 

I will be there game one fully behind my team. 

A toast to you my friend

 

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

I don't see what you are saying. It wouldn't stunt the growth of your prospects... it would at the very least... start the growth of your prospects if they are going to grow.     

I would rather have a potential future starter play every day at AAA than have them play 2 times a week on the MLB bench. If it's a player like Prato or Helman who has probably maxed out his talent and is unlikely to be more than a bench player in MLB, then fine. If they're going to sit the bench in AAA then sitting the bench in the big leagues is a step up.

[Riverbrian]

Just now, DJL44 said:

I would rather have a potential future starter play every day at AAA than have them play 2 times a week on the MLB bench. If it's a player like Prato or Helman who has probably maxed out his talent and is unlikely to be more than a bench player in MLB, then fine. If they're going to sit the bench in AAA then sitting the bench in the big leagues is a step up.

I wouldn't want any player playing two times a week unless they are playing bad. 

If you are saying POTENTIAL future starter that isn't playing well at the major league level... you are making your argument based upon the assumption that the player isn't ready to perform decently. If he's not ready to perform decently... why wouldn't you send him back down?

If he's a potential future starter who is actually playing well... Play him more than two times a week. 

The player will make the decision for you.  

 

[Mike Sixel]

2 hours ago, CCHOF5yearstoolate said:

It may stink for those players, but it's also up to them to prove they're worthy of that roster spot. 

How do they do that in AAA? If no veteran is hurt?

[Mike Sixel]

12 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

I would rather have a potential future starter play every day at AAA than have them play 2 times a week on the MLB bench. If it's a player like Prato or Helman who has probably maxed out his talent and is unlikely to be more than a bench player in MLB, then fine. If they're going to sit the bench in AAA then sitting the bench in the big leagues is a step up.

Do we think getting ten more at bats a week really matters to growth if the player is ready? I'd rather the best players are in Minnesota, helping the team win. 

[nicksaviking]

21 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

I would rather have a potential future starter play every day at AAA than have them play 2 times a week on the MLB bench. If it's a player like Prato or Helman who has probably maxed out his talent and is unlikely to be more than a bench player in MLB, then fine. If they're going to sit the bench in AAA then sitting the bench in the big leagues is a step up.

How dare you besmirch Anthony Prato, he's going to be the next Ben Zobrist I tell you! Zobrist!!!

But seriously, the best part about all of the guys the Twins could call up might be their positional flexibility. The Twins love to rest players, much to many fans chagrin. But due to this, everyone could play at least 4 games a week with how flexible most of the roster is.

[DJL44]

43 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

I wouldn't want any player playing two times a week unless they are playing bad. 

If you're a defensive replacement and the short side of a platoon that's your outlook. I would rather have Margot and Santana on the bench and Martin and Miranda in AAA playing everyday. I really don't want Brooks Lee turned into a platoon player. Playing time matters. 10-12 extra at-bats a week is 40 a month or 250 over a season.

If a starter gets hurt, then call up the rookie and give them a bunch of playing time.

[DJL44]

43 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

How do they do that in AAA? If no veteran is hurt?

Be one of the best players in AAA. Play better than the veteran non-roster guys who couldn't find a job this spring. If you're not one of the 50 best players in AAA then you're probably not good enough yet.

[Riverbrian]

1 minute ago, DJL44 said:

If you're a defensive replacement and the short side of a platoon that's your outlook. I would rather have Margot and Santana on the bench and Martin and Miranda in AAA playing everyday. I really don't want Brooks Lee turned into a platoon player. Playing time matters. 10-12 extra at-bats a week is 40 a month or 250 over a season.

If a starter gets hurt, then call up the rookie and give them a bunch of playing time.

Are the Twins capable of that? Sadly... I can't discount that but I hope beyond hope that they wouldn't do that to Austin Martin or Brooks Lee. 

If you have a prospect like Austin Martin and you are going to treat him like Kyle Garlick... Just trade him now. He's no longer worthy of this discussion. Just cash out,,, he doesn't have a chance of becoming anything of value in the future. 

 

 

[DJL44]

5 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Are the Twins capable of that? Sadly... I can't discount that but I hope beyond hope that they wouldn't do that to Austin Martin or Brooks Lee. 

If you have a prospect like Austin Martin and you are going to treat him like Kyle Garlick... Just trade him now. He's no longer worthy of this discussion. Just cash out,,, he doesn't have a chance of becoming anything of value in the future. 

If Martin plays every day then Wallner is sitting the bench. If Brooks Lee comes up then Lewis or Kirilloff or Julien sits. Which young player do you want to mess with? I'd rather tell Margot and Santana to sit.

[bean5302]

The Twins will probably not be 100% healthy with nobody going onto the IL, but also 29 other teams will not be 100% healthy. There's a fair likelihood somebody will be calling and inquiring about guys like Farmer knowing Minnesota has a lot of depth and they were looking to move additional pieces. Still a month before opening day.

I'm actually very surprised Falvey wasn't able to move Farmer at his $6MM salary. As a full time player, he's passable as a starting infielder.

[Riverbrian]

31 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

If Martin plays every day then Wallner is sitting the bench. If Brooks Lee comes up then Lewis or Kirilloff or Julien sits. Which young player do you want to mess with? I'd rather tell Margot and Santana to sit.

If Martin is earning playing time

If Wallner is earning playing time. 

If Brooks Lee is earning playing time. 

If Royce Lewis is earning playing time

If Alex Kirilloff is earning playing time.

If Eddie Julien is earning playing time. 

That would be awesome... It would be exactly what every team should hope for. We can clear our October schedule to make room for playoff baseball. 

Too many baseball fans look at a starting nine and look for crap for the next four spots. I'd stop doing that but I can't convince people to stop thinking that way. We had a large chunk of people who wanted Jorge Polanco gone because they couldn't see past Julian. 

I'd be looking for 13 players who get the job done and let the manager figure out playing time for all and if you got to the point where you have 13 players who are getting the job done. It doesn't matter who the manager puts in. They are all getting the job done.  

There is no justification ever to keep two people on the 26 man roster because they are players you have no problem sitting. 

The biggest thing that KILLS a team is keeping a Margot or a Santana on the roster while they hit .190 and yet don't release them because they are making 9 million dollars collectively. 

Too many players, all young with years of control, all needing playing time. That is never a problem... that's a successful franchise.  

  

 

 

[Riverbrian]

32 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

If Martin plays every day then Wallner is sitting the bench. If Brooks Lee comes up then Lewis or Kirilloff or Julien sits. Which young player do you want to mess with? I'd rather tell Margot and Santana to sit.

Do the Reds have an infield problem or a good thing?

https://www.fangraphs.com/roster-resource/depth-charts/reds

 

[DJL44]

43 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

If Martin is earning playing time

If Wallner is earning playing time. 

If Brooks Lee is earning playing time. 

If Royce Lewis is earning playing time

If Alex Kirilloff is earning playing time.

If Eddie Julien is earning playing time. 

Then someone will be screwed over because they won't be getting enough playing time.

As of now there is no evidence at all Lee will be better than Farmer, Martin will be better than Margot or Miranda will be better than Santana. If one of them is one of the best 50 players in AAA they can make a move. Until then, they need to earn a roster spot.

[DJL44]

49 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

I'm actually very surprised Falvey wasn't able to move Farmer at his $6MM salary. As a full time player, he's passable as a starting infielder.

I don't think they wanted to trade Farmer.

[Shaitan]

3 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

Is it? Are Santana, Margot, Farmer and Vazquez really competing against anyone? Does anyone really see the team DFA'ing any of these guys before August if they 'lose' the competition?

Yes. They are competing against every single player in MiLB and MLB. And if they are surpassed on the depth chart they will be replaced, whether for performance reasons, health, suspension, or personal issues. They don't need a literal Player A vs Player B to be fighting for their place as one of the top 1000 players in the world. And if they fail they will be replaced. I don't care if it's March or August or December, that's always true. Being a pro athlete is a cutthroat industry and nobody's roster spot is guaranteed. There is no unbreakable bond here and there is always somebody waiting on deck to take that roster spot.

You answered this yourself in mentioning August. If they fail, they're out. That's competition. If they get cut, it won't be based just on what they did the week before. It will be based on the season and Spring Training up until that point.

Am I saying they are likely to cut the players you named? Of course not. Though I could see any player on a one-year deal cut by June, honestly.

[nicksaviking]

37 minutes ago, Shaitan said:

Yes. They are competing against every single player in MiLB and MLB. And if they are surpassed on the depth chart they will be replaced, whether for performance reasons, health, suspension, or personal issues. They don't need a literal Player A vs Player B to be fighting for their place as one of the top 1000 players in the world. And if they fail they will be replaced. I don't care if it's March or August or December, that's always true. Being a pro athlete is a cutthroat industry and nobody's roster spot is guaranteed. There is no unbreakable bond here and there is always somebody waiting on deck to take that roster spot.

You answered this yourself in mentioning August. If they fail, they're out. That's competition. If they get cut, it won't be based just on what they did the week before. It will be based on the season and Spring Training up until that point.

Am I saying they are likely to cut the players you named? Of course not. Though I could see any player on a one-year deal cut by June, honestly.

Joey Gallo remained on the team for the entirety of the 2023 season. So did Javier Vazquez. What playing time did they earn? Bundy, Archer, Simmons, Marwin Gonzalez, Logan Morrison. Never got released. The only one who did was Matt Shoemaker who was released after being on the 60 day IL first.

Like it or not (hard 'not' for me) if they're paying a veteran a MLB salary and the veteran doesn't have the option to go to St. Paul, that veteran doesn't have to earn a dang thing.

[RpR]

9 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Joey Gallo remained on the team for the entirety of the 2023 season. So did Javier Vazquez. What playing time did they earn? Bundy, Archer, Simmons, Marwin Gonzalez, Logan Morrison. Never got released. The only one who did was Matt Shoemaker who was released after being on the 60 day IL first.

Like it or not (hard 'not' for me) if they're paying a veteran a MLB salary and the veteran doesn't have the option to go to St. Paul, that veteran doesn't have to earn a dang thing.

Yeah, we should not have left Rooker, Le Monte Wade Jr., Hicks etc., etc., etc. go they were rookies therefore their lacklustre play earned them the right to replace veterans.

[nicksaviking]

2 minutes ago, RpR said:

Yeah, we should not have left Rooker, Le Monte Wade Jr., Hicks etc., etc., etc. go they were rookies therefore their lacklustre play earned them the right to replace veterans.

You don't have to let those rookies go, you can send them back to St. Paul.

[RpR]

3 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

You don't have to let those rookies go, you can send them back to St. Paul.

 

3 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

You don't have to let those rookies go, you can send them back to St. Paul.

Hmmm, I guess you have a point there, but first they have to earn the right to come up and sit on the bench and wait for some thing to get them in the game, mean while, veterans can stay and play because they have been there, done that, and are not learning how to play or showing they should still be in AAA.

Sano , God bless his soul, showed that some times, AAA is not far enough to teach them some thing a few years back.

[IndianaTwin]

16 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

Joey Gallo remained on the team for the entirety of the 2023 season. So did Javier Vazquez. What playing time did they earn? Bundy, Archer, Simmons, Marwin Gonzalez, Logan Morrison. Never got released. The only one who did was Matt Shoemaker who was released after being on the 60 day IL first.

Like it or not (hard 'not' for me) if they're paying a veteran a MLB salary and the veteran doesn't have the option to go to St. Paul, that veteran doesn't have to earn a dang thing.

People overestimate the playing time players get throughout the season. There also has to be viable alternatives, which they haven't always had.   

• Gallo spent most of the last month of the season on the IL, when there was wondering about how "hurt" he actually was. In the last quarter of the season, he started a whopping eight games. When he played in the last quarter, it was primarily for defense, which hadn't slumped. 
• Javier Vazquez retired in 2011. If you mean Christian Vazquez, the alternative was to bring up a guy with zero MLB experience, in the middle of a pennant race, at the position most likely to have your starter go down due to injury. They kept playing Christian to keep Jeffers fresh in the regular season, and in the playoffs they showed they weren't committed to playing him when there was a better option. And you're not going to sign off on bad hitting when a bad hitter is still playing the good defense he was signed for.   
• Bundy and Archer "earned" playing time by being available in a season when other starters were hurt and rookies were not ready.
• Simmons played when the alternative was to shift a hobbled Polanco back to short. 
• Gonzalez was solid in his full year and only sucked in a year that was too short to release someone, but he was let go (i.e., not re-signed) when they had a chance that offseason.
• Morrison didn't need to get released -- he got hurt and didn't play after mid-August.

[jkcarew]

I feel like we’re lamenting the Margot deal simply because it came last.

It’s the Santana deal that did the damage, IMO. Did we not already have 2 or 3 guys that could handle 1B and rotate in/out of DH?

On the other hand, you pretty much HAVE to have a guy ready to play every-day mlb-caliber CF. If you’re not feeling good about who you could put out there (besides Buxton) for  70-100 games, it’s negligence to not find someone to fix that.

[USAFChief]

5 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Are the Twins capable of that? Sadly... I can't discount that but I hope beyond hope that they wouldn't do that to Austin Martin or Brooks Lee. 

If you have a prospect like Austin Martin and you are going to treat him like Kyle Garlick... Just trade him now. He's no longer worthy of this discussion. Just cash out,,, he doesn't have a chance of becoming anything of value in the future. 

 

 

A "prospect like Austin Martin?"

 

The guy with the .749 career MiLB OPS. 14 career MiLB HRs? soon turning 25? That guy?

For the record, that's over 100 points below Garlick's career MiLB OPS.

 

 

[Dlee]

roster is set. spring training doesn't mean squawble just finding the injuries.