Game Thread: Twins v Red Sox, 4/20 @ 12:35pm CT

[jkcarew]

Thank god this is a road game and the bullpen only needs to get 15 more outs.

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, USAFChief said:

Giving someone more than 3 starts based on current and/or past performance has absolutely NOTHING in common with giving players roles based on contract incentives, which was your original point

Sorry, you're just flat wrong here. 

You play to win, not give players chances to earn incentives. 

They're tied together, Chief. Last time you called me "flat out wrong" I gave you stat after stat to show you were, in fact, the one who was flat out wrong then you disappeared. You seem to think that saying just makes you right. Not quite how it works.

Kenta Maeda has earned the right to start over a very productive professional career. His incentives are tied to him starting. He's had 2 starts this year and you want him relegated to the pen because you're not happy with his 2 starts. Players aren't idiots. And neither are their agents. Agents would have it highlighted in their notes about the Twins when their veteran pitcher is contacted by the Twins and they suggest incentives tied to starts. Pretending it's not all tied together is being entirely disingenuous and you know it.

Fans have the luxury of living in the moment. Teams need to "play to win" for the now and the later. People act like Bailey Ober is Nolan Ryan and we're just refusing to play the iron man who'd be throwing 8 inning shutouts every night. Bailey Ober has topped 100 innings 1 time since he was 18 years old. He's 27 now. It's a joke that people think he's someone the team should, or would, just throw in there and expect deep starts. It's funny that it's the same group of people who complain about short starts who want the guy who can't go deep into starts thrust into the rotation and act like it's so obvious.

[MMMordabito]

3 minutes ago, bighat said:

I think the Twins' leadoff hitter has struck out to lead off the past 6 games or something incredible like that. 

 

Kepler walked yesterday.

[chpettit19]

4 minutes ago, Taildragger8791 said:

Incentives are there to be earned. If his performance doesn't dictate the right playing time to hit those incentives then that's on the player. The team has given him all the rope he could reasonably expect. He physically isn't holding up to a starting role.

Again, it's been 2 starts. The team setting 2 starts as the "reasonable expectation" is absurd. Bailey Ober has literally never held up to a starters role, but that's who people want.

[James]

 

[AceWrigley]

Maybe they should play this when Pagan enters the game:

[Winston Smith]

A thought or three, 1) Leave Pagan in Boston or drop him off someplace along the flight home. 2) Move Maeda to the bullpen. 3) Bring up Ober to replace Maeda in the rotation.

[chpettit19]

2 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

The Twins didn't negotiate incentives, the Dodgers did.

And the Dodgers clearly didn't give a damn about them seeing as he was a regular in their bullpen.

I honestly don't think any free agents would want to come to Minnesota if they thought the Twins would put together a less competitive team to appease inferior teammates.

The Twins acquired a player they knew had incentives. 

He made 103 starts in 4 years with the Dodgers. People act like he was making 5 starts a year for them or something. He averaged more starts per year with them than Sonny Gray has for the last like 8 years.

Who's the clearly better option? Ober? The guy who can't throw 100 innings a season? It's crazy that people act like he's some world beater and Maeda is some scrub.

[sampleSizeOfOne]

Sorry about that. Got here top of the second.

 

Tough seeing Maeda go down...

[sampleSizeOfOne]

 Is Gallo humor acceptable here?

[Parfigliano]

Just now, sampleSizeOfOne said:

 Is Gallo humor acceptable here?

Its encouraged

[chpettit19]

5 minutes ago, MMMordabito said:

It's quite the outlier of a contract.  I doubt any agents are using it as a blueprint.  I'm not too worried.  I doubt anyone is going to look at the Twins as manipulators when looking at the circumstances surrounding Maeda (older, TJ-comeback, not really holding up very well even before the liner off the leg).

5.5 innings per start isn't exactly some sort of outlier. People are acting like he's throwing 3 innings a game. And it's so clear they should put Ober in there instead who has literally never, in his entire life, held up to a starter's workload. Never. Not once. You can't say Maeda isn't holding up if your answer to that problem is replacing him with a guy who's thrown 100 innings in 1 year since he was 18. He's 27. How much more evidence do we need that he can't hold up?

[Aggies7]

1 minute ago, sampleSizeOfOne said:

 Is Gallo humor acceptable here?

Yes, and so are Pagan sacrifices

[Irishman]

Pagan sucks!  He needs to be DFA!   I never like him at all.   I don’t know what Baldelli see in him as pitcher.   Pagan is real awful.   

[stringer bell]

When Pagan is your seventh-best reliever, you still need two more. Depending on one's opinion of Moran, Pagan is sixth or seventh in the Twins' bullpen. 

[tony&rodney]

Maeda has earned his position as a starting pitcher. Unfortunately, he is likely to go on the IL bringing Varland or Ober to Target Field. Pagan will get more chances as well and it will be amazing if he ever turns his career around, but it is pretty clear that the guys who make the decisions like Emilio.

[USAFChief]

3 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

They're tied together, Chief. Last time you called me "flat out wrong" I gave you stat after stat to show you were, in fact, the one who was flat out wrong then you disappeared. You seem to think that saying just makes you right. Not quite how it works.

Kenta Maeda has earned the right to start over a very productive professional career. His incentives are tied to him starting. He's had 2 starts this year and you want him relegated to the pen because you're not happy with his 2 starts. Players aren't idiots. And neither are their agents. Agents would have it highlighted in their notes about the Twins when their veteran pitcher is contacted by the Twins and they suggest incentives tied to starts. Pretending it's not all tied together is being entirely disingenuous and you know it.

Fans have the luxury of living in the moment. Teams need to "play to win" for the now and the later. People act like Bailey Ober is Nolan Ryan and we're just refusing to play the iron man who'd be throwing 8 inning shutouts every night. Bailey Ober has topped 100 innings 1 time since he was 18 years old. He's 27 now. It's a joke that people think he's someone the team should, or would, just throw in there and expect deep starts. It's funny that it's the same group of people who complain about short starts who want the guy who can't go deep into starts thrust into the rotation and act like it's so obvious.

You're flat wrong.

 

To wit: I didn't say I didn't want Maeda starting. I haven't said that anywhere.

I said he was topping out at 89, which isn't good. After skipping a start, BTW.

What I said was giving ANY consideration to contract incentives as a basis for role or playing time is NOT how any good MLB team should operate. 

If they think he's one of their 5 best starters, fine. If not, his contract should have no influence. None. Zip. Zilch. 

Anything else is ******* ridiculous and I'm quite confident both they and Maeda would agree, along with any potential future free agents. 

 

 

[I wish the twins were good]

11 minutes ago, wavedog said:

Too bad for Pagan that Chang couldn't bat 3 times in a row.     I think we have seen enough of Pagan - time for a DFA  

If by some miracle this mess of a game leads them to putting Ober in the rotation and cutting Pagan finally, I'd take it over a win any day of the week. 

[jkcarew]

Going to let Pagan wear one here. I don't know if it's going to work. His arm might fall off before he gets another 3 outs.

[Tlaker]

6 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Yes, and so are Pagan sacrifices

Classic!

[Aggies7]

Thank goodness we have 7 games against 2 of the absolute worst teams in baseball coming up

[nicksaviking]

4 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

The Twins acquired a player they knew had incentives. 

He made 103 starts in 4 years with the Dodgers. People act like he was making 5 starts a year for them or something. He averaged more starts per year with them than Sonny Gray has for the last like 8 years.

Who's the clearly better option? Ober? The guy who can't throw 100 innings a season? It's crazy that people act like he's some world beater and Maeda is some scrub.

Right, it's crazy that anyone would think a 26-year-old is a better option than a 35-year-old. Again, the Dodgers were doing exactly the same thing with him with their young starters YEARS ago.

You don't like Ober? Fine, give Varland the job, but you're exaggerating the situation. No one is calling Ober a world beater or Maeda a scrub, but don't promise jobs to ANYONE in pro sports. Maeda was good out of the pen for the Dodgers, reducing his innings and using him as needed could be a significant asset to this team.

[chpettit19]

3 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

You're flat wrong.

 

To wit: I didn't say I didn't want Maeda starting. I haven't said that anywhere.

I said he was topping out at 89, which isn't good. After skipping a start, BTW.

What I said was giving ANY consideration to contract incentives as a basis for role or playing time is NOT how any good MLB team should operate. 

If they think he's one of their 5 best starters, fine. If not, his contract should have no influence. None. Zip. Zilch. 

Anything else is ******* ridiculous and I'm quite confident both they and Maeda would agree, along with any potential future free agents. 

 

 

It's how EVERY MLB team operates in April. Whether you like it or not.

[Irishman]

Hallelujah!    Pagan is taken out.    Pagan, Good riddance!  

[stringer bell]

1 minute ago, Irishman said:

Why is Pagan still pitching?   Baldelli has no f clue!  

Baldelli needs to get six innings out of the bullpen with no off days in the next week. He's probably trying to extend all of the low-leverage guys. If the Twins are down by a touchdown, we're not going to see Jax, JLopez, Thielbar and Duran. 

[tony&rodney]

2 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

If they think he's one of their 5 best starters, fine.

I absolutely believe Maeda is one of the Twins top five starting pitchers as of the beginning of the season and would say this is why he was in the rotation. It is April. I mean we still have Buxton and Correa on the team and they haven't been lighting up the scorebook yet, although they are clearly among our best players. Let the season move forward six weeks before worrying.

 

[USAFChief]

1 minute ago, chpettit19 said:

It's how EVERY MLB team operates in April. Whether you like it or not.

Every team in baseball gives players roles based on contract incentives, rather than play?

 

First rule of holes: when you find yourself in one, stop digging. 

[Dave Borton]

21 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

... Pagan is such a victim. . .

He just needs to find religion.

[USAFChief]

1 minute ago, tony&rodney said:

I absolutely believe Maeda is one of the Twins top five starting pitchers as of the beginning of the season and would say this is why he was in the rotation. It is April. I mean we still have Buxton and Correa on the team and they haven't been lighting up the scorebook yet, although they are clearly among our best players. Let the season move forward six weeks before worrying.

 

Fine. What does that have to do with contract incentives?

[RpR]

If the Twins get shutout, pitching means nothing.