How Does Edouard Julien Get Recalled to the Twins?

[Byrdman]

Julien cannot play defense.  He has no position and is struggling in AAA.  Why would we bring up the liability.  He is not ready at all.  Let him stay until he has a monster month in AAA then maybe bring him up.  I am more excited for Polonco to come up than Julien. 

[umterp23]

.276 with OPS over 900 doesn't sound like he is struggling.  Has he K'd a bit too much, maybe but sounds like he is adjusting quite nicely over the last week or so.  Will have another 0 for 4 game sure, all guys will.  Is he ready for the show, probably not but liability is strong statement.  Liability is Castro and Taylor at the moment.  Auto outs in the lineup don't help matters

[Reptevia]

We get to sit back and see what defensive WAR is really worth. (I think it it way overvalued). I think defense is important; you can’t have clanks playing everywhere, but if you can’t score runs, you lose. If the FO sticks with the game plan, we get to see a season-long real life experiment in the true (not just expected or potential) value of defensive WAR. 

[Major League Ready]

5 hours ago, Byrdman said:

Julien cannot play defense.  He has no position and is struggling in AAA.  Why would we bring up the liability.  He is not ready at all.  Let him stay until he has a monster month in AAA then maybe bring him up.  I am more excited for Polonco to come up than Julien. 

He had a bad first 3 games.  Since those first 3 games he has been on base in 13 of 23 plate appearances.  Even with the bad start his wRC+ is 139.  They might keep him down to work on defense, but I would not say he is struggling.

[nicksaviking]

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Gallo is an emergency use in CF only player now. Especially if you flank him with Larnach and Wallner. I mean I'm pretty sure we could put together a team of 3 TD users and beat those 3 in a relay race. That'd be an absolutely horrific defensive outfield. Then both Julien and Miranda in the IF and you're talking Chicago-esque fielding. 

The Astros were the worst defensive team in baseball last year? I don't think that's accurate. Fielding bible had them tied for 4th best. Fangraphs also had them 4th best. Baseball reference had them...you guessed it, 4th! Chicago was the worst defense in baseball last year. And didn't make the playoffs.

Yeah, they built this team around pitching and defense with hopefully just enough offense. It was a risky move. Trading in the defense for an offense that still wouldn't be top 10 wouldn't, in my opinion, win them more games. You're asking them to go to a White Sox level defense while also acknowledging the White Sox handed them 2 free runs yesterday. If they're giving out free runs they not only need their lineup to make up the runs you're asking now, but also all the free ones they'd give up. Gallo, Wallner, and Julien (3 guys you're asking to "save" the offense) would combine for 500+ Ks if they were everyday guys the rest of this year. 

I fully agree that this current lineup isn't good enough. But completely destroying the defense for an offense that wouldn't be top 10 wouldn't fix the problem. They need Buxton in CF, Polanco at 2B, and Miranda, Larnach, Kirilloff, Lewis to be the players they expect as soon as possible. There's not enough offense to make up for the defense by simply swapping out their fielders for their better hitters. Their better hitters aren't good enough.

Sorry, I was thinking of the runner up Phillies, not the Astros and their OF defense was worse than Gallo, Larnach and Wallner who aren't nearly as bad as you're suggesting. Gallo in CF is probably similar to when the Twins had to use Kepler out there. It wasn't the end of the world. Outfield defense is rarely as glaringly bad as infield defense. It's not like balls are dropped regularly, the issue just tends to be they don't get to a ball that a better outfielder would get to, but those balls aren't nearly as common as fans would think.

And yeah, Chicago's defense is terrible and gave the Twins two free runs. And they still beat the Twins. 

I'm certainly not asking Gallo, Wallner and Julien to save the Twins. I've made my dislike of the Gallo signing since it happened. I just want to consolidate Gallo and Taylor into one liability. I've also stated my uncertainty about Wallner panning out due to his strikeouts, but at this point his roster spot is unavoidable. Julien, the one player with hope for upside is the one that should be up, yet isn't. He perhaps can create a spark.

[chpettit19]

4 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Sorry, I was thinking of the runner up Phillies, not the Astros and their OF defense was worse than Gallo, Larnach and Wallner who aren't nearly as bad as you're suggesting. Gallo in CF is probably similar to when the Twins had to use Kepler out there. It wasn't the end of the world. Outfield defense is rarely as glaringly bad as infield defense. It's not like balls are dropped regularly, the issue just tends to be they don't get to a ball that a better outfielder would get to, but those balls aren't nearly as common as fans would think.

And yeah, Chicago's defense is terrible and gave the Twins two free runs. And they still beat the Twins. 

I'm certainly not asking Gallo, Wallner and Julien to save the Twins. I'm made my dislike of the Gallo signing since it happened. I just want to consolidate Gallo and Taylor into one liability. I've also stated my uncertainty about Wallner panning out due to his strikeouts, but at this point his roster spot is unavoidable. Julien, the one player with hope for upside is the one that should be up, yet isn't. He perhaps can create a spark.

Gallo would be a disaster in CF fulltime. An absolute disaster. The problem with OFers not getting to balls is that they turn into extra base hits while booted balls in the infield turn into singles. Larnach is a solid fielder, but has very little range. Wallner is an awful defender with no range. Gallo is a good defender, but nowhere near the range you need in CF. They'd be turning outs into extra base hits regularly. And when the offense still wouldn't be that good you'd be losing the exchange of offense for defense. You can't just look at them each individually. That combination of players would be horrid out there. They wouldn't take away a single hit while giving up extra extra base hits regularly. You simply can't survive that unless they're hitting at an elite level. And they wouldn't be.

I'm confused by the idea that you don't think Gallo and Wallner are good hitters, but you want them in the lineup to improve the offense, and thus win more games. There's really no debate that the defense would be significantly worse with them out there together, but you also don't think they'd do much to improve the offense. I'm confused by that. Julien is an interesting argument. I don't know what you do defensively to get him in the lineup. Put him at 2B and sit Farmer? Solano has been one of their better hitters so I don't think sitting him would be the move. Buxton is going to DH whether we like it or not and you can't sit him. Julien at 2B for Gordon/Farmer is probably the move to make, but they don't seem ready to give up on Gordon yet. But, to me, the season long answer is Polanco back, Correa getting on track, Kirilloff back, and Buxton in CF. Without those things happening there's no obvious answer to improving the team overall by mixing and matching guys who should be in the bottom of the order or on the bench. 

[ashbury]

11 hours ago, terrydactyls said:

Yeah.  It's a bitch having someone hitting .293 batting 3rd or 4th.  Get rid of the bum!

But it's an empty .293.  Solano has one extra base hit, fewer than anyone not named Gordon... uh or Miranda, or Vazquez, or Castro, or Wallner.  Oops, this team isn't hitting very well as a whole, is it; team isolated power (SLG-BA) is 3rd from the bottom in the majors right now.  It's become tough filling out the top of the lineup.  At least Solano's not hitting an empty .077 like Gordon.  Yeah, guess we let him bat third for a while if need be.  Don't have to like it, though.

[Greglw3]

2 hours ago, Byrdman said:

Julien cannot play defense.  He has no position and is struggling in AAA.  Why would we bring up the liability.  He is not ready at all.  Let him stay until he has a monster month in AAA then maybe bring him up.  I am more excited for Polonco to come up than Julien. 

If this is struggling, then it’s news to me! .417 OBP, .517 SLG PCT and .934 OPS.

.276

.417

.517

.934

 

[Greglw3]

1 hour ago, Reptevia said:

We get to sit back and see what defensive WAR is really worth. (I think it it way overvalued). I think defense is important; you can’t have clanks playing everywhere, but if you can’t score runs, you lose. If the FO sticks with the game plan, we get to see a season-long real life experiment in the true (not just expected or potential) value of defensive WAR. 

Agree, defensive WAR is way overvalued and further based on poorly designed metrics.

That’s why Eddie Rosario was way undervalued when he was here, about 3/4 of his WAR was taken away by goofy defensive metrics! If you play for a staff with 2 or 3 lefties in the rotation, your OAA will be higher than a LF who plays behind an all RH rotation.

And why Kepler is overvalued as a guy who can’t hit but plays good defense.

As Carlos Correa mentioned after countless people were duped by his silly def metrics last year, around 18th percentile in OOA, we had a fly ball staff. Of course he didn’t have as many outs as other SS who played behind ground ball pitchers. Bet he was fantastic at balls hit at him. One can’t underestimate that amazing arm he has.

[nicksaviking]

25 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Gallo would be a disaster in CF fulltime. An absolute disaster. The problem with OFers not getting to balls is that they turn into extra base hits while booted balls in the infield turn into singles. Larnach is a solid fielder, but has very little range. Wallner is an awful defender with no range. Gallo is a good defender, but nowhere near the range you need in CF. They'd be turning outs into extra base hits regularly. And when the offense still wouldn't be that good you'd be losing the exchange of offense for defense. You can't just look at them each individually. That combination of players would be horrid out there. They wouldn't take away a single hit while giving up extra extra base hits regularly. You simply can't survive that unless they're hitting at an elite level. And they wouldn't be.

I'm confused by the idea that you don't think Gallo and Wallner are good hitters, but you want them in the lineup to improve the offense, and thus win more games. There's really no debate that the defense would be significantly worse with them out there together, but you also don't think they'd do much to improve the offense. I'm confused by that. Julien is an interesting argument. I don't know what you do defensively to get him in the lineup. Put him at 2B and sit Farmer? Solano has been one of their better hitters so I don't think sitting him would be the move. Buxton is going to DH whether we like it or not and you can't sit him. Julien at 2B for Gordon/Farmer is probably the move to make, but they don't seem ready to give up on Gordon yet. But, to me, the season long answer is Polanco back, Correa getting on track, Kirilloff back, and Buxton in CF. Without those things happening there's no obvious answer to improving the team overall by mixing and matching guys who should be in the bottom of the order or on the bench. 

Taylor has 22 putouts in ten games this year, that's barely two outs a game. How many fewer balls would Gallo get to in a week than Taylor would? One? Probably less than one?  They do not get as many chances to mess up as you think, and certainly not an amount that's significant. We're not talking about putting Miguel Sano in CF, it's a guy who's done it capably in the past.

The Twins have too many bad hitters, and I'm just looking for any way to minimize that. Taylor was brought in to be a back up, Gallo wasn't. If they want to bench Gallo instead of Taylor, that might be only a slight offensive downgrade, but I don't see that happening. So let Gallo, who is guaranteed a spot when healthy, take the spot of the guy who has no business being in the lineup every day.

And just send Willi Castro down already. He's redundant in the field and unusable at the plate.

[chpettit19]

28 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Taylor has 22 putouts in ten games this year, that's barely two outs a game. How many fewer balls would Gallo get to in a week than Taylor would? One? Probably less than one?  They do not get as many chances to mess up as you think, and certainly not an amount that's significant. We're not talking about putting Miguel Sano in CF, it's a guy who's done it capably in the past.

The Twins have too many bad hitters, and I'm just looking for any way to minimize that. Taylor was brought in to be a back up, Gallo wasn't. If they want to bench Gallo instead of Taylor, that might be only a slight offensive downgrade, but I don't see that happening. So let Gallo, who is guaranteed a spot when healthy, take the spot of the guy who has no business being in the lineup every day.

And just send Willi Castro down already. He's redundant in the field and unusable at the plate.

Joey Gallo currently has a sprint speed in the 32nd percentile. For reference, Sano had a sprint speed in the 34th percentile last year. Sano's was in the 39th percentile in 2021. MAT is in the 83rd percentile. Gallo hasn't been a capable CFer since 2018. He was terrible there in 2019 and has played 7 innings there since. He is not a CFer. Like there's absolutely nothing about who he is as a player that suggests he can play CF anymore. Nothing at all. No team trying to win baseball games would put him in CF. It's not about "messing up." I'm not expecting him to drop balls he gets to. But, like I said, when an OFer can't get to a ball it usually means extra bases. So when you put Gallo and his "slower than Sano" self in CF, with 47th percentile Larnach in LF, and "judges a ball as well as Sano" Wallner in RF you're turning a lot of outs into doubles. Handing out extra base hits while pairing that with your desire to have Julien and Miranda in the IF booting balls is a recipe for disaster.

The current team will give up 3 or 4 runs most games. They'll score 2 or 3 most games. Not ideal. The team you're asking for would give up 4 or 5 runs a game while scoring 3 or 4. You haven't solved the "score more than you give up" problem. And the team you're asking for makes it so the starters aren't going as deep in games because the defense is allowing more hits, and putting more guys in scoring position, which means they're throwing more, higher leverage pitches and being pulled earlier so now the team is relying on their worse pitchers in the bullpen more. 

Putting Julien at 2B and Castro in AAA makes sense to me. I'm not really sure why they haven't done that. My guess would be that they want to give Gordon more than 10 games before they write him off. But Gallo in CF isn't helping this team win more games.

[nicksaviking]

12 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Joey Gallo currently has a sprint speed in the 32nd percentile. For reference, Sano had a sprint speed in the 34th percentile last year. Sano's was in the 39th percentile in 2021. MAT is in the 83rd percentile. Gallo hasn't been a capable CFer since 2018. He was terrible there in 2019 and has played 7 innings there since. He is not a CFer. Like there's absolutely nothing about who he is as a player that suggests he can play CF anymore. Nothing at all. No team trying to win baseball games would put him in CF. It's not about "messing up." I'm not expecting him to drop balls he gets to. But, like I said, when an OFer can't get to a ball it usually means extra bases. So when you put Gallo and his "slower than Sano" self in CF, with 47th percentile Larnach in LF, and "judges a ball as well as Sano" Wallner in RF you're turning a lot of outs into doubles. Handing out extra base hits while pairing that with your desire to have Julien and Miranda in the IF booting balls is a recipe for disaster.

The current team will give up 3 or 4 runs most games. They'll score 2 or 3 most games. Not ideal. The team you're asking for would give up 4 or 5 runs a game while scoring 3 or 4. You haven't solved the "score more than you give up" problem. And the team you're asking for makes it so the starters aren't going as deep in games because the defense is allowing more hits, and putting more guys in scoring position, which means they're throwing more, higher leverage pitches and being pulled earlier so now the team is relying on their worse pitchers in the bullpen more. 

Putting Julien at 2B and Castro in AAA makes sense to me. I'm not really sure why they haven't done that. My guess would be that they want to give Gordon more than 10 games before they write him off. But Gallo in CF isn't helping this team win more games.

Handing out extra base hits? We're talking about dealing with two or three outs per game. That's it. And you somehow think he's going to bungle half of them that Taylor wouldn't? That's beyond unreasonable.

[FlyingFinn]

Buxton in CF, Polanco at 2B, Gallo at 1B, Julien at DH................ dreaming of a better lineup (offense and defense at every position) vs. RH pitchers.

[chpettit19]

Just now, nicksaviking said:

Handing out extra base hits? We're talking about dealing with two or three outs per game. That's it. And you somehow think he's going to bungle half of them that Taylor wouldn't? That's beyond unreasonable.

Again, it's not just Gallo alone. It's your combination of 2 slow footed, and one awful defender. The fewest POs for any OF in baseball last year was 894 from Miami. Most was Det with 1162. MN had 1117. So that's between 5.5 and 7.2 outs per game from outfielders. That's that they actually got to. The Twins have recorded 64 POs with their OFers this year. So at 6.4 per game. Again, outs they actually got to. Playing with above average defenders in multiple spots for most of those games.

So the question is what percent worse is a Larnach/Gallo/Wallner defense than a Larnach/Taylor/Kepler (or Wallner for now) defense? 10%? That's just over half an out per game that goes from an out to a double. So 1 extra double every other game. Doesn't sound like much. Until you realize that's an extra 81 doubles a year. There were 2 teams that averaged 2 doubles a game last year. You're talking about pushing those teams up over 2.5 doubles per game and all but 7 offenses up to 2 doubles a game. So you're turning 23 offenses in baseball into the top 1% in baseball in doubles. Not sure that's "beyond unreasonable" to worry about.

The outfield of Larnach/Gallo/Wallner would be an absolute disaster. Extra base hits matter. It's literally what every team is working to accomplish in as many ABs as possible. You cannot play those 3 players together and think it wouldn't matter when you wouldn't really be upgrading the offense in any significant way. There's no mixture of players currently available to them that is going to significantly rebalance their runs allowed vs runs scored chances right now. If Buxton is DHing, and Lewis is still on the IL, this team has a significant problem. Switching out Taylor for another hitter you don't like, who would also be terrible defensively, seems far more unreasonable as an answer than any of the stat supported thoughts I've thrown out.

[DJL44]

5 hours ago, Craig Arko said:

I expect it will be either by bus or plane.

[DJL44]

2 hours ago, Greglw3 said:

If this is struggling, then it’s news to me! .417 OBP, .517 SLG PCT and .934 OPS.

.276

.417

.517

.934

 

It's not any great shakes for AAA. It's 6th best on the Saints.

[FlyingFinn]

27 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

It's not any great shakes for AAA. It's 6th best on the Saints.

You're really trying to make him look bad - 6th best is in batting average only and includes players who don't have enough qualifying at bats. OBP is what we need in the leadoff position for the Twins and Julien is tied for the team lead in OBP among qualifying players. Having said all of that, with Polanco on his way back and Buxton blocking the DH spot, I'm not saying I would call up Julien right now.

[2wins87]

On 4/10/2023 at 12:16 PM, Mike Sixel said:

He's been an OF his whole career, and elite defensively.......

Gallo's outfield defense is pretty overrated at this point. He used to be good but was never better than Kepler defensively.

His only defensive asset at this point is his arm. He used to be fast but is below average now. His statcast outs above average was negative last year playing exclusively corner outfield.

I don't really want to see Gallo in center if we can help it. A platoon between Taylor and Gordon could maybe work if Gordon starts hitting. He had some hard hit balls yesterday so hopefully he's turning a corner.

[ashbury]

Take away all his times on base, and Julien's hitless so far in this young season. Take away also the other times he's put the ball in play, and he strikes out nearly every time.  And that's just against minor leaguers - major league pitchers won't go so easy on him.  I'd let him season at AAA awhile longer, until he proves he can hit major league pitching.

[Squirrel]

With Gallo to the IL and Julien pulled from the Saints’ lineup tonight (they are currently in Indianapolis), I’m guessing Julien will be on the roster tomorrow

[DocBauer]

So the OP is about Julien, not the OF, but I absolutely appreciate the context in regard to how he fits in the lineup. (FWIW, I'm really hoping he will add LF to 2B/1B to his flexibility and be passable there).

I am OK selecting offense over defense at all 4 corner spots. Now, I love and want good defense everywhere I can get it, but I feel offense trumps defense in the long run. But even with changes in the game, I still believe in strong "middle" defense from catcher to CF. Taylor is not Buxton...one of the best CF I've ever seen...but he is outstanding in CF. We can debate how many outs may be made from the CF in an average game, but a high quality CF is GOING to make a few special catches every few games that can be real difference makers. He's going to cut off balls that might otherwise be doubles, potentially run scoring doubles. And he helps cover for corner OF that lack range. So NO, Gallo should not be a primary CF as he's only OK there on a fill in basis.

I DO think Gallo is a quality corner OF. I also think Larnach is vastly underrated defensively. He moves well for a big man, takes good angles, and has a great arm. Wallner is a large human being who is a good athlete and seems to run really well. And he has an absolute cannon for an arm. If he can just learn to read the ball better and take better routes, I have little doubt he'll be at least solid defensively. (I don't know that he's there yet). While Wallner projects to very "Gallo-esque" offensively, I think he has a chance to be a better HITTER than Gallo, with similar power.

I'm excited to see what Wallner might become. I love Larnach. I like the 1yr shot with Gallo. But in no way do I want to see that as a regular starting OF. There's just not enough range to prevent a series of big hits that the potential offense just won't cover.

And so, I have to repeat my previous comment that the player who probably needs to be moved is Kepler. Gallo can cover 1B until a better full time option appears, but can spend more time in RF. Wallner might move up and down at different times to adjust the roster. And this is where room is found for Julien on the roster, and in the lineup. 

[KirbyHawk75]

I am really happy for the kid.  But seriously, how do so many Twins get hurt season after season?  And another thing that bothers me is a player gets hurt and they say he is day to day.  And then they sit out a week, then get put in the IL and are out for two months.  This is 4 Starters out and a fifth (Correa) is also "day to day" which means he will be out till the All Star Break.  Plus, I love him, but Buxton is due for a visit to the IL.  

[bighat]

As the previous poster alluded to, he's up: https://www.mlb.com/news/edouard-julien-promotion-to-twins

 

[Riverbrian]

23 hours ago, Craig Arko said:

I expect it will be either by bus or plane.

It's a Plane! It's a Plane! 

[sampleSizeOfOne]

On 4/11/2023 at 8:28 AM, Craig Arko said:

I expect it will be either by bus or plane.

He'd bike down the avenue, but he hasn't got a bike...

[sampleSizeOfOne]

On 4/12/2023 at 6:07 AM, bighat said:

As the previous poster alluded to, he's up: https://www.mlb.com/news/edouard-julien-promotion-to-twins

 

Up!

Up and away!

[sampleSizeOfOne]

On 4/12/2023 at 8:08 AM, Riverbrian said:

It's a Plane! It's a Plane! 

Some Fantasy Island reference seems apropos...

Especially with a first single and homer in a first inning.. Can't be real, can it?

[Riverbrian]

45 minutes ago, sampleSizeOfOne said:

Some Fantasy Island reference seems apropos...

Especially with a first single and homer in a first inning.. Can't be real, can it?

Oh it was real and those keeping score may not be happy with him because their scorebooks are a mess now. 

In the lead off position... you have to fill in his box under the 1st inning because he singled and scored. Then you have to fill in his box under the 2nd inning because he homered and scored. It's still the 1st inning and you are now using the 2nd inning column to finish the 1st...

This is the part that sucks. You have to cross out the 2 that signifies inning and write in a 1 and then cross out every inning after. Cross the 3 out and write in 2... cross the 4 out and write in 3... cross the 5 out and write in 4 all the way to the end of the game.  

The scorebook is now a mess and I'm going to hold Mr. Julien responsible for this. Yeah I know other people on the team helped but he started it. 

Disclaimer: I didn't keep score last night and I personally have no reason to complain for others who might have been. 

 

[ashbury]

4 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

The scorebook is now a mess and I'm going to hold Mr. Julien responsible for this. Yeah I know other people on the team helped but he started it.

Other than that, Mr. Waterhouse*, how did you enjoy the game?

* Okay, YOU come up with a more famous bean-counter or whatever

[Riverbrian]

6 minutes ago, ashbury said:

Other than that, Mr. Waterhouse*, how did you enjoy the game?

* Okay, YOU come up with a more famous bean-counter or whatever

I didn't know there was such a thing as a famous bean-counter.

The only person I can think of is Juan Valdez but I don't think he is counting all those beans.