Eddie Rosario

[Crackedfungo]

19 hours ago, prouster said:

What could the Twins have received by trading Rosario? Less than three months ago, Cleveland traded him for Pablo Sandoval. To their credit, it was a very creative deal—I didn’t even know Sandoval was still playing. 
 

You do realize that Eddie Rosario was on the Twins in their recent slew of playoff exits, right? So when you ask which Twin has hit in every game of any series, that includes Rosario. Honestly I don’t know what your point is. If the Twins have Rosario, who was on the team in 2017, 2019, and 2020, they would have had more playoff success?

 

Lastly, please tell me you aren’t implying that Rosario is a better player than Mauer. That’s absolute nonsense. 

An asset for an asset is better than ZERO.  Simple math.  Stupid decision.  Everyone knew they were going to let him go (since they telegraphed it), which was also imbecilic and decreased his trade value.  Also, selling low when the Indians did, was also not bright (but good for the Braves).  Do you think anyone will trade prospects ranked as high as possible if the Twins telegraph they will decline Buxton a contract?  They won't.

I DO REALIZE Rosario was on the Twins during their playoff runs, and he performed better than most of the other players we retained (as I proved above).  He also performed better than Mauer across his numerous playoffs.  

I AM IMPLYING that Rosario was a better player FOR THE MONEY EXPENDED (an asset) than Mauer in the regular season and the playoffs.  Mauer had one exceptional offensive year in the regular season among many 'slap hitting' years where he lived on reputation and deference as a catcher.  With all being assets; Mauer, Rosario, and respective salaries, your point has NO MEANS of validation when taken into account (which the Twins always do - they are NOT the Dodgers or Yankees that do not give a rats a$$ about assets since they are free flowing and bottomless). 

BTW:  Hits in 10 out of 13 games after tonight ( 1 for 3 with 2 walks).  Batting .500 with over a 1.000 OPS and a 7 game playoffs hitting streak - numbers Mauer [edited by glunn]  never touched and he isn't done yet (this year or for his career).  How bout them apples?

[Crackedfungo]

14 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Except that Mauer had a .275 postseason batting average and that's not including Phil Cuzzi flat-out stealing a double from him.

His postseason batting average jumps all the way up to .293 if you award him the double he obviously hit, which goes to show why we shouldn't put so much stock in such small sample sizes.

The above information is FALSE.  See below.  If you have a good case, you also don't bring up 'if you award him the double he obviously hit' - it was NOT rewarded, doesn't count, and would NOT have jumped his average up from .275 to .293.  See below:  

JOE MAUER Postseason-Batting:

SEASON	TEAM
2006	MIN
2009	MIN
2010	MIN
2017	MIN
Career

 

GP	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	HBP	K	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS
3	11	0	2	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	.182	.250	.182	.432
3	12	1	5	1	0	0	1	2	0	4	0	0	.417	.500	.500	1.000
3	12	0	3	0	0	0	0	1	0	3	0	0	.250	.308	.250	.558
1	5	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.200	.200	.200	.400
10	40	1	11	1	0	0	1	4	0	7	0	0	.262	.314	.283	.597

 

 

EDDIE ROSARIO Postseason-Batting (Before Tonight)

SEASON	TEAM
2017	MIN
2019	MIN
2020	MIN
2021	ATL
Career

 

GP	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	HBP	K	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS
1	3	1	1	0	0	1	2	1	0	1	0	0	.333	.500	1.333	1.833
3	13	1	4	1	0	1	1	0	0	4	0	0	.308	.308	.615	.923
2	7	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	.000	.000	.000	.000
6	22	2	9	0	0	0	3	1	0	2	1	0	.409	.435	.409	.844
12	45	4	14	1	0	2	6	2	0	8	1	0	.263	.311	.589	.900

 

 

My point was in regards to playoff performance (above), and effective use of assets like Rosario was.  You brought up the Mauer [edted by glunn] comparison, and he does NOT compete in post-season with Rosario (look at Mauer's putrid SLG%, and below replacement OPS) and cost much more on a relative basis (and as a % of Twins yearly salary commitment).  Just accept the facts as they are, and also realize that Rosario is on a run Mauer NEVER had in the post-season (and it ain't over yet).  Someone in the chat called him clutch, and someone else 'poo poo'd' it.  My point was to prove it.  Mauer was NOT one of the Top 7 Cs of all time either.  Take a look at the Hall, and the Negro leagues.  He isn't in Top Ten.  'Might have been's' don't count here either, as we are talking about PERFORMANCE, and Mauer fell shorter in playoffs and cost a much higher % of assets.  Lastly, don't use the weak 'but he was more important and called games as a C' - I played catcher through college.  Calling a game isn't hard; you mix pitch command with batter tendencies to keep them off balance, and you get LUCKY.   Moreover, his pitcher's performances generally SUCKED, so it cuts both ways when you are a C.  I should know, among a ton of clunkers and OK games, I 'called 4 no-hitters and 2 were perfect games and take little credit for it - when a pitcher is 'on,' a little league C can call it.

[Brock Beauchamp]

8 hours ago, Crackedfungo said:

The above information is FALSE.  See below.  If you have a good case, you also don't bring up 'if you award him the double he obviously hit' - it was NOT rewarded, doesn't count, and would NOT have jumped his average up from .275 to .293.  See below:  

JOE MAUER Postseason-Batting:

SEASON	TEAM
2006	MIN
2009	MIN
2010	MIN
2017	MIN
Career

 

GP	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	HBP	K	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS
3	11	0	2	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	.182	.250	.182	.432
3	12	1	5	1	0	0	1	2	0	4	0	0	.417	.500	.500	1.000
3	12	0	3	0	0	0	0	1	0	3	0	0	.250	.308	.250	.558
1	5	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.200	.200	.200	.400
10	40	1	11	1	0	0	1	4	0	7	0	0	.262	.314	.283	.597

 

 

EDDIE ROSARIO Postseason-Batting (Before Tonight)

SEASON	TEAM
2017	MIN
2019	MIN
2020	MIN
2021	ATL
Career

 

GP	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	HBP	K	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS
1	3	1	1	0	0	1	2	1	0	1	0	0	.333	.500	1.333	1.833
3	13	1	4	1	0	1	1	0	0	4	0	0	.308	.308	.615	.923
2	7	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	.000	.000	.000	.000
6	22	2	9	0	0	0	3	1	0	2	1	0	.409	.435	.409	.844
12	45	4	14	1	0	2	6	2	0	8	1	0	.263	.311	.589	.900

 

 

My point was in regards to playoff performance (above), and effective use of assets like Rosario was.  You brought up the Mauer [edted by glunn] comparison, and he does NOT compete in post-season with Rosario (look at Mauer's putrid SLG%, and below replacement OPS) and cost much more on a relative basis (and as a % of Twins yearly salary commitment).  Just accept the facts as they are, and also realize that Rosario is on a run Mauer NEVER had in the post-season (and it ain't over yet).  Someone in the chat called him clutch, and someone else 'poo poo'd' it.  My point was to prove it.  Mauer was NOT one of the Top 7 Cs of all time either.  Take a look at the Hall, and the Negro leagues.  He isn't in Top Ten.  'Might have been's' don't count here either, as we are talking about PERFORMANCE, and Mauer fell shorter in playoffs and cost a much higher % of assets.  Lastly, don't use the weak 'but he was more important and called games as a C' - I played catcher through college.  Calling a game isn't hard; you mix pitch command with batter tendencies to keep them off balance, and you get LUCKY.   Moreover, his pitcher's performances generally SUCKED, so it cuts both ways when you are a C.  I should know, among a ton of clunkers and OK games, I 'called 4 no-hitters and 2 were perfect games and take little credit for it - when a pitcher is 'on,' a little league C can call it.

First, you need to take a deep breath, man. Or maybe YOUR information is FALSE (groaning for emphasis). Or maybe there's an error here and either one of us could be wrong because this is what Baseball-Reference has listed. Either way, step off your high horse for a second because I didn't just make up the number .275 and this isn't the first time I've seen a discrepancy between MLB and B-Ref.

Postseason Batting

Year	Age	Tm	Lg	Series	Opp	Rslt	G	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	TB	GDP	HBP	SH	SF	IBB	WPA	cWPA
2006	23	MIN	AL	ALDS	OAK	L	3	12	11	0	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	.182	.250	.182	.432	2	0	0	0	0	0	-0.24	-2.3%
2009	26	MIN	AL	ALDS	NYY	L	3	14	12	1	5	1	0	0	1	0	0	2	4	.417	.500	.500	1.000	6	0	0	0	0	0	0.21	1.8%
2010	27	MIN	AL	ALDS	NYY	L	3	13	12	0	3	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	3	.250	.308	.250	.558	3	0	0	0	0	0	-0.05	-0.5%
2017	34	MIN	AL	ALWC	NYY	L	1	5	5	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.200	.200	.200	.400	1	1	0	0	0	0	-0.14	-1.7%
4 Yrs (4 Series)							10	44	40	1	11	1	0	0	1	0	0	4	7	.275	.341	.300	.641	12	1	0	0	0	0	-0.22	-2.7%
1 ALWC							1	5	5	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.200	.200	.200	.400	1	1	0	0	0	0	-0.14	-1.7%
3 ALDS							9	39	35	1	10	1	0	0	1	0	0	4	7	.286	.359	.314	.673	11	0	0	0	0	0	-0.08	-1.0%

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 10/20/2021.

[big dog]

8 hours ago, Crackedfungo said:

An asset for an asset is better than ZERO.  Simple math.  Stupid decision.  Everyone knew they were going to let him go (since they telegraphed it), which was also imbecilic and decreased his trade value.  Also, selling low when the Indians did, was also not bright (but good for the Braves).  Do you think anyone will trade prospects ranked as high as possible if the Twins telegraph they will decline Buxton a contract?  They won't.

 

 

To be accurate here, the Indians traded Eddie Rosario plus cash to Atlanta for Pablo Sandoval. The Indians released Sandoval the same day. So I don't think you can say it was an asset for an asset. They actually paid Atlanta to take Eddie's contract.

[tony&rodney]

Quick exercise. Name a player from the Washington/Minnesota baseball franchise that is regarded historically as among the top ten in baseball history at their primary position. Joe Mauer is among the top ten catchers in baseball history.

I'll go first - Walter Johnson.

Leave Joe Mauer out of any discussions about Eddie Rosario, contracts, etc., because it only makes you look foolish, jealous, or worse.

Eddie Rosario is an absolute joy to watch right now and his bases loaded walk was precious. He looked almost sheepish taking ball four as if he knew what a free swinger he has always been but deferred to the situation. Fun.

[gunnarthor]

I found this a bit depressing. Rosario has, in one season in Atlanta, now played in more post-season games as a Brave than as a Twin. 

 

[gunnarthor]

1 hour ago, tony&rodney said:

Quick exercise. Name a player from the Washington/Minnesota baseball franchise that is regarded historically as among the top ten in baseball history at their primary position. Joe Mauer is among the top ten catchers in baseball history.

I'll go first - Walter Johnson.

Leave Joe Mauer out of any discussions about Eddie Rosario, contracts, etc., because it only makes you look foolish, jealous, or worse.

Eddie Rosario is an absolute joy to watch right now and his bases loaded walk was precious. He looked almost sheepish taking ball four as if he knew what a free swinger he has always been but deferred to the situation. Fun.

As a Twin? And at the position?

Rod Carew at second base (1967-1975). 43 WAR, 130 OPS+ in those years.

Kirby Puckett at center is still in some top 10 lists. He'll get pushed out in the next few years but right now, he's probably 8-10 all time.

Here's a debateable one - Joe Nathan as a closer. Still top 10 in saves. His 2004 season was amazing. And he's 40th all-time among pitchers in WPA despite only 900 or so innings. Only closers ahead of him on that list are Gossage, Hoffman, and Rivera.

 

[big dog]

2 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

Eddie Rosario is an absolute joy to watch right now and his bases loaded walk was precious. He looked almost sheepish taking ball four as if he knew what a free swinger he has always been but deferred to the situation. Fun.

That was a fun at-bat, agreed. The commentators were saying how he absolutely could not swing 3-0, no way, and I thought "You don't know Eddie". However, ball four was about a foot outside and he made the right choice. I would love to have watched the pitcher throw him something six inches above the strike zone. Later on in the game he struck out swinging at two pitches that were way out of the zone, but with bases loaded he definitely had his head in the game.

[big dog]

1 hour ago, gunnarthor said:

I found this a bit depressing. Rosario has, in one season in Atlanta, now played in more post-season games as a Brave than as a Twin. 

 

Good point- and so have several other guys. I've been watching a lot of games and I keep telling my wife "He was a Twin" over and over and over. I don't ever remember a playoff with this many ex-Twins all over the place.

[Otto von Ballpark]

21 hours ago, USAFChief said:

Mauer ended up singling in that AB. His post season BA wasn't affected by Cuzzi's call.

Probably cost the Twins a run though.

You are correct, Mauer singled. And had he been credited with his double, he may well have scored on the consecutive singles that followed.

Unfortunately, the first Yankees batter in the bottom of the inning homered, so reversing the call still may not have resulted in a Twins win -- just a longer, perhaps even more painful Twins loss.

[gunnarthor]

14 hours ago, Crackedfungo said:

The above information is FALSE.  See below.  If you have a good case, you also don't bring up 'if you award him the double he obviously hit' - it was NOT rewarded, doesn't count, and would NOT have jumped his average up from .275 to .293.  See below:  

JOE MAUER Postseason-Batting:

SEASON	TEAM
2006	MIN
2009	MIN
2010	MIN
2017	MIN
Career

 

GP	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	HBP	K	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS
3	11	0	2	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	.182	.250	.182	.432
3	12	1	5	1	0	0	1	2	0	4	0	0	.417	.500	.500	1.000
3	12	0	3	0	0	0	0	1	0	3	0	0	.250	.308	.250	.558
1	5	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.200	.200	.200	.400
10	40	1	11	1	0	0	1	4	0	7	0	0	.262	.314	.283	.597

 

 

EDDIE ROSARIO Postseason-Batting (Before Tonight)

SEASON	TEAM
2017	MIN
2019	MIN
2020	MIN
2021	ATL
Career

 

GP	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	HBP	K	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS
1	3	1	1	0	0	1	2	1	0	1	0	0	.333	.500	1.333	1.833
3	13	1	4	1	0	1	1	0	0	4	0	0	.308	.308	.615	.923
2	7	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	.000	.000	.000	.000
6	22	2	9	0	0	0	3	1	0	2	1	0	.409	.435	.409	.844
12	45	4	14	1	0	2	6	2	0	8	1	0	.263	.311	.589	.900

 

 

My point was in regards to playoff performance (above), and effective use of assets like Rosario was.  You brought up the Mauer [edted by glunn] comparison, and he does NOT compete in post-season with Rosario (look at Mauer's putrid SLG%, and below replacement OPS) and cost much more on a relative basis (and as a % of Twins yearly salary commitment).  Just accept the facts as they are, and also realize that Rosario is on a run Mauer NEVER had in the post-season (and it ain't over yet).  Someone in the chat called him clutch, and someone else 'poo poo'd' it.  My point was to prove it.  Mauer was NOT one of the Top 7 Cs of all time either.  Take a look at the Hall, and the Negro leagues.  He isn't in Top Ten.  'Might have been's' don't count here either, as we are talking about PERFORMANCE, and Mauer fell shorter in playoffs and cost a much higher % of assets.  Lastly, don't use the weak 'but he was more important and called games as a C' - I played catcher through college.  Calling a game isn't hard; you mix pitch command with batter tendencies to keep them off balance, and you get LUCKY.   Moreover, his pitcher's performances generally SUCKED, so it cuts both ways when you are a C.  I should know, among a ton of clunkers and OK games, I 'called 4 no-hitters and 2 were perfect games and take little credit for it - when a pitcher is 'on,' a little league C can call it.

There's something wrong about the stats you posted. It says Mauer had 11 hits in 40 AB. That's a .275 avg. It also says Rosario had 14 hits in 45 AB. That's a .311 avg, but they list that as his OBP. I suspect your columns got messed up somehow. 

[Mike Sixel]

I'm at a loss to understand some people's belief that the Twins should basically never trust a rookie, and keep every veteran, even at a level of pay no other team was willing to come close to. 

I'm happy he is getting to have some success this year! I don't get why we can't be happy for that, and realize it was time to move on (even if it didn't work......not successful does not mean not correct, anymore than successful means correct).

[VivaBomboRivera!]

Wow, already 3-3, 2 R, 1 RBI after 5 today.  The man's a house afire. 

With this performance, in '22 Eddie is likely to get the kind of contract he wanted from the Twins with a dollop of whipped cream and a cherry on top.

[Twodogs]

Boy I sure am glad the Twins don't have Eddie Rosario anymore.  ?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Came up in the 9th, with a chance to hit for the cycle, and, ... didn’t?

[annismark]

the anit-Rosario arguments seem to get weaker every inning.

 

[Danchat]

Holy cow, a single, triple, and 2 HRs in one game for Eddie? Wowzers! What a series he's had... yup, I'm jealous of this playoff success Atlanta is having. 

[mickeymental]

good thing danny santana isn’t still with the braves or it’d be 20-2.

[tony&rodney]

Yes, Holy Cow - that was fun. Eddie! Eddie!

[Crackedfungo]

 

This argument about playoff performances between Rosario and Mauer in the playoffs (the initial argument) should now be over FOR GOOD.  That is eight straight games with a hit, 11 out of 15 games with hits in playoffs, 4HRs, 11 RBI, 8 Runs (when Maurer had only 1 RBI and 1 Run TOTAL in Playoffs),   Rosario BA is now up to .358, and his SLG is .679 and OPS 1.080.  He will also likely win NLCS MVP, which Mauer never did (and possibly go to the World Series).  No matter what happens for the balance of his career, he wins.  Case Closed.....

 

[Crackedfungo]

10 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

There's something wrong about the stats you posted. It says Mauer had 11 hits in 40 AB. That's a .275 avg. It also says Rosario had 14 hits in 45 AB. That's a .311 avg, but they list that as his OBP. I suspect your columns got messed up somehow. 

It isn't the columns.  It is the MATH the system calculated.  The numbers you cited are correct, and distances Mauer from Rosario even further.  Didn't think I has to math check the data totals, but I guess I did.

[adorduan]

On 10/15/2021 at 11:56 AM, AceWrigley said:

Wouldn't mind seeing some Eddie Rosario exploits sink the Dodgers. ?

Well, he's doing his damnest to accomplish that.  Helluva night for Eddie!

[Crackedfungo]

10 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

I'm at a loss to understand some people's belief that the Twins should basically never trust a rookie, and keep every veteran, even at a level of pay no other team was willing to come close to. 

I'm happy he is getting to have some success this year! I don't get why we can't be happy for that, and realize it was time to move on (even if it didn't work......not successful does not mean not correct, anymore than successful means correct).

With Cave, Refs and Garlick as your 'fall back plan', and redeployment of these assets to the tune of over a -6.0 WAR means NOT CORRECT by any measure but yours.....You must have loved Terry Ryan.

[lecroy24fan]

11 minutes ago, Crackedfungo said:

It isn't the columns.  It is the MATH the system calculated.  The numbers you cited are correct, and distances Mauer from Rosario even further.  Didn't think I has to math check the data totals, but I guess I did.

I never use ESPN. I've seen way too many mistakes with their stats.

[AceWrigley]

When Eddie gets hot . . . he sizzles.

 

[lecroy24fan]

4 minutes ago, Crackedfungo said:

With Cave, Refs and Garlick as your 'fall back plan', and redeployment of these assets to the tune of over a -6.0 WAR means NOT CORRECT by any measure but yours.....You must have loved Terry Ryan.

Well when the actual backup plan was Luis Arraez, who was pressed into duty at 3B when Donaldson got hurt it isn't unreasonable to have ;et Eddie go. When injuries pile up you can't really control having to go to your third, fourth, fifth options.

 

And Eddie was terrible in Cleveland. I'd guess his WAR was even less there.

 

Edit: .6 in CLE and .5 with ATL.

[Crackedfungo]

16 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

Quick exercise. Name a player from the Washington/Minnesota baseball franchise that is regarded historically as among the top ten in baseball history at their primary position. Joe Mauer is among the top ten catchers in baseball history.

I'll go first - Walter Johnson.

Leave Joe Mauer out of any discussions about Eddie Rosario, contracts, etc., because it only makes you look foolish, jealous, or worse.

Eddie Rosario is an absolute joy to watch right now and his bases loaded walk was precious. He looked almost sheepish taking ball four as if he knew what a free swinger he has always been but deferred to the situation. Fun.

Let's see.....who brought up Mauer?  Oh, the guy whose comparative is getting destroyed with every Rosario at-bat.  Not me.  Mauer was NO playoff hero, he was not even average.  He was poor across the board.  ONE RUN and ONE RBI in his career, and his BA was nothing to crow about either.

Mauer is NOT Top Ten at his position.  How long have you watched baseball?  The Top 12 are: Johnny Bench, Yogi Berra, Josh Gibson, Ray Campanella, Bill Dickey, Mickey Cochrane, Carlton Fisk, Pudge Rodriguez, Mike Piazza, Carlton Fisk, Buster Posey, Yadier Molina.  It is a Twins delusion to think otherwise, as he had some exceptional years (particularly 2009), but was NOT in the class of the 12 above, and is a HOF squeaker at best.  PERIOD.

[dxpavelka]

"stat" guys can't measure heart

[Otto von Ballpark]

8 hours ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Came up in the 9th, with a chance to hit for the cycle, and, ... didn’t?

I think Rosario could have walked to the dugout after touching 2nd on his home run trot — he’d be called out at that point, but credited with a double.

[big dog]

Wow, Eddie had a game, that's for sure. He's made himself some serious money in next year's contract. It will be interesting to see what he does. I don't imagine the Braves will keep him, given his new market and their returning superstar outfielders, but someone will give him a big paycheck.