Twins/MLB Apathy

[Platoon]

During the last week I have attended a couple VFW games, worked, and had a small family reunion. In the last month I have been to an anniversary and had one of my regular coffee visits with an old friend. And during these occasions, I have encountered quite a few people whom I know for a fact are baseball fans of many years.

The constant to all of these get together is the complete and total apathy for the Twins. MLB doesn’t fare much better, with the exception of the sticky debate. It’s virtually impossible to discuss the Twins with anyone I know. My son and son in law both coach youth teams. The guy I coffee with was always a Twins and sports fan. I sat at the VFW game with an old classsmate who has attended thousands of baseball games. When I mentioned the Twins his eyes glazed over. 
 

This attitude isn’t something that just happened. The lack of interest in Twins baseball seems to have been coming on for some time. Virus short season related? Bomba Ball? Lack of action plays? Whatever something has shifted, and it’s not for the better. 

[twinfan]

Don't know if these are fair-weather fans but when teams are doing well, there is generally more fan interest. Unfortunately, we are not doing well and maybe some are wondering what will happen to the team going forward.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Baseball is in trouble, period. It needs an overhaul immediately. I’m a hardcore fan, obviously, and I’ve watched less baseball this season than I have in years. I still catch most Twins games but don’t watch other teams as often as I normally do. Almost everyone I know has a decreased interest in the game in recent seasons. 

[TheLeviathan]

You guys think you have apathy?  Talk to your average 11 year old about baseball.

[stringer bell]

Too slow, too many strikeouts, not enough action. I think MLB is trying to tweak things, but they really haven't come away with changes that a) speed up the game b) allow fans to see more outstanding plays and base running and c) encourage the younger generations to follow the sport. 

A work stoppage might greatly wound my favorite professional sport and it seems likely that it will happen. I am not optimistic about the game's immediate future.

[Platoon]

59 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

You guys think you have apathy?  Talk to your average 11 year old about baseball.

I have a 13 yr. old grandson playing in the cities, so I get to see some of those games in the metro. He may play baseball, but he lives NASCAR! Ugh! Btw, semi off topic, the lack of fundamentals is stunning. Some of it is all games, and little practice I am sure. 

[TheLeviathan]

2 minutes ago, Platoon said:

I have a 13 yr. old grandson playing in the cities, so I get to see some of those games in the metro. He may play baseball, but he lives NASCAR! Ugh! Btw, semi off topic, the lack of fundamentals is stunning. Some of it is all games, and little practice I am sure. 

Just be happy you have a grandson playing!  Participation in all youths sports are down, but baseball has a real crisis.  

Some of us were talking about this three years ago though.

[GCTF]

1 hour ago, TheLeviathan said:

You guys think you have apathy?  Talk to your average 11 year old about baseball.

Can confirm in my experiences as a coach and an administrator when my son played and also as a scorekeeper/ official scorer in a volunteer role at the top level in the province. Kids may still play ball but they really have little to no interest in MLB.

 

 

[GCTF]

Today's game is boring and takes way too damn long to play. While I certainly appreciate the advances in statistical analysis made over the last 20 years. it doesn't really lend itself to being a watchable product. Personally I still watch from time to time but I find that if I know I can't commit to staying with the game to the end I just don't watch at all. The NHL being played into the summer months has also played a part for me as hockey has always been and will always be my first sport. As a result I also have found myself taking part in this forum on a much rarer basis.

Having said that I have no ideas on how to change things for the better but I sure hope someone does.

[terrydactyls]

The only MLB games that I watch are Twins' games.  And because I live in Maine, those are few and far between.  And yet, I still record them so I can watch in fast forward mode watching to see if the score changes.  Then I go back and see what happened.  That way I miss the strikeouts, the adjusting of batting gloves, the changing of the baseballs any time a pitch gets near the dirt, etc.  I usually can watch a nine inning game in well under an hour.  It's still a little boring but manageable.

P..S.  I used to have Pensacola Blue Wahoo status but when the website "upgrade," I became a Junior Member.  Did that happen to anyone else?

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

13 minutes ago, terrydactyls said:

P..S.  I used to have Pensacola Blue Wahoo status but when the website "upgrade," I became a Junior Member.  Did that happen to anyone else?

Just like how the minor leagues were reorganized this year, so too were Twins Daily ranks.

By the power vested in me by no one in particular, I now christen you a Rocket City Trash Panda:

But seriously, I don't know. @Brock Beauchamp, care to chime in?

 

[bighat]

Good observations here. Avid Twins fan here, out of state, pay for the MLB.TV package - in the past I'd have never, ever missed a game. The problem with the 2021 Twins is that they just don't put the ball in play enough. Here's a typical inning: Walk, strikeout, walk, strikeout, strikeout. I just can't watch that #&Q$#$*. It's irritating, frustrating, nails-on-the-chalkboard stuff. They get two guys on base and the next two guys strike out. Every. Damn. Time. What happened to get 'em over, get 'em in? I love watching baseball played right. Leadoff single. Stolen base. Bunt the guy over, sac fly to bring him home. Fun! And by the way, great defensive plays can only be made if a ball is put in play, so today's trend is bad for both offense and defense.

Today's game is broken: The Shift. The Strikeouts. The 100MPH fastballs and 95MPH changeups. The HR-or-Nothing offensive mentality....it's unwatchable.  I know about all the advanced stats. I follow them, I understand them. I realize why they are important - but they've ruined the game. The Twins are perhaps the most obvious example in MLB, really stinks for us fans.

 

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

@Otto von Ballpark  @terrydactyls The entire rank system is going to be upended for something *much* cooler, possibly as soon as this week, and we’re currently in between those changes a bit. That’s why ranks and some profile things look different. It will be hard to miss when it happens and I will post a blog explaining the changes. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

I'll note that in my experience, there wasn't a lot of general Twins discussion going on in the late 1990s either. That's what happens when your team is really bad and out of the race early. It's natural to expect 2021 to still have more interest due to the recent success of 2019-2020, but restrictions on tickets and attendance so far have meant that a lot of preseason ballpark trip planning didn't happen this year either. (I think the down period of the 2010s was buoyed a bit by Target Field, as well as the extended success of 2002-2010.)

As for MLB apathy, it's largely a regional sport so that's highly dependent on the local team's performance too.

[Original_JB]

5 hours ago, Platoon said:

During the last week I have attended a couple VFW games, worked, and had a small family reunion. In the last month I have been to an anniversary and had one of my regular coffee visits with an old friend. And during these occasions, I have encountered quite a few people whom I know for a fact are baseball fans of many years.

The constant to all of these get together is the complete and total apathy for the Twins. MLB doesn’t fare much better, with the exception of the sticky debate. It’s virtually impossible to discuss the Twins with anyone I know. My son and son in law both coach youth teams. The guy I coffee with was always a Twins and sports fan. I sat at the VFW game with an old classsmate who has attended thousands of baseball games. When I mentioned the Twins his eyes glazed over. 
 

This attitude isn’t something that just happened. The lack of interest in Twins baseball seems to have been coming on for some time. Virus short season related? Bomba Ball? Lack of action plays? Whatever something has shifted, and it’s not for the better. 

Out of sight, out of mind.

[Vanimal46]

My sample size of friends who I talk baseball with has been reduced to 3. Besides my friends on this website… One is an Astros fan, one is a Dodgers fan, and the last is a Cubs fan. The majority response is 3 true outcomes sucks to watch. 

They continue to hide access to their games behind a paywall. I rarely hear about a game available on over-the-air channels. 

We have hesitancy to move the game forward and bicker about “old school” vs “new school”

My friends who are casual Twins fans checked out in early May. They got their fire Rocco, fire Sano, fire everyone takes out of the way and moved on to other things. 

[bighat]

While the game does need fixing, overall I think it's the Twins. Click the link below to watch pure bedlam & joy in SoCal.

Seriously, how much fun are they having in San Diego right now? This is a regular season game, in June, against a last place team:  https://bdata-producedclips.mlb.com/bfdd7526-2ec1-4a3d-b0ab-4bb367ef1dc9.mp4

[TheLeviathan]

4 hours ago, GCTF said:

Can confirm in my experiences as a coach and an administrator when my son played and also as a scorekeeper/ official scorer in a volunteer role at the top level in the province. Kids may still play ball but they really have little to no interest in MLB.

 

 

This is the part that the "well, baseball is local so apathy is due to poor product" is missing.  Yes, Twins fans are probably more checked out than most, but people are willing to check out MUCH faster than they used to be.  Even in the 90s people would talk themselves into rooting for Steinbach or Cordova or chucking stuff at Knobby.  I went to games to watch Mcguire and Sosa and eat cheap hot dogs.  Games had huge kid populations.  But now?  Kids just don't care about the league.  They play the sport to a degree, but couldn't give a rip about MLB itself.  That's a major problem.

I would just suggest that those underlying things: kids at games, genuine interest in out of market ball players, knowledge of the league....is drying up fast as hell.  I have lived and worked with kids in three different markets now and since that started 20 some odd years ago the decline in baseball and the rise in football and basketball is dramatic.  NBA video games outsell baseball games (14M to 1M...and the Show is a damn fine product).  I won't even tell you what Madden (a crap franchise) is doing.  Hits on social media aren't even close.  Twitter and other platforms (where younger fans are more likely to invest their eyeballs) are laughably out of balance.  Kids don't know their own teams or players, much less the league.

It's a lot easier to check out on a sport you aren't all that invested in or entertained by.

[LA Vikes Fan]

Baseball is in trouble. Much as I know this will offend the purists, they need to do at least a couple of things to increase offense. First, ban the infield shift. Bring the ground ball single back into the game and increase the number of guys on base. This will reward players who put the ball in play and hopefully help balance offenses a little bit away from the three true outcomes guys. Second, lower the mound a little. The pitchers are ahead of the hitters. Third, cut down on the time in between innings by cutting back on the TV commercials. Shoot for most games ending in between two hours 30 minutes and 2 hours 45 minutes, not three hours and 3 1/2 hours. All of this will help improve the office and hopefully make the game more quickly with more action.

[Otto von Ballpark]

4 hours ago, bighat said:

While the game does need fixing, overall I think it's the Twins. Click the link below to watch pure bedlam & joy in SoCal.

Seriously, how much fun are they having in San Diego right now? This is a regular season game, in June, against a last place team:  https://bdata-producedclips.mlb.com/bfdd7526-2ec1-4a3d-b0ab-4bb367ef1dc9.mp4

And the Padres aren’t even in first place — they are 4.5 games out. If the season ended today, the Padres would have to go to LA for the wild card game.

[bighat]

3 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

I went to games to watch Mcguire and Sosa and eat cheap hot dogs.  Games had huge kid populations.  But now?  Kids just don't care about the league.  They play the sport to a degree, but couldn't give a rip about MLB itself.  That's a major problem.

I would just suggest that those underlying things: kids at games, genuine interest in out of market ball players, knowledge of the league....is drying up fast as hell.  I have lived and worked with kids in three different markets now and since that started 20 some odd years ago the decline in baseball and the rise in football and basketball is dramatic.  NBA video games outsell baseball games (14M to 1M...and the Show is a damn fine product).  I won't even tell you what Madden (a crap franchise) is doing.  Hits on social media aren't even close.  Twitter and other platforms (where younger fans are more likely to invest their eyeballs) are laughably out of balance.  Kids don't know their own teams or players, much less the league.

It's a lot easier to check out on a sport you aren't all that invested in or entertained by.

Last time I checked, kids don't buy their own tickets to baseball games. My niece and nephew are 9 and 7 years old and went to the game today - they didn't just take an Uber to the stadium and plunk down their AMEX card. It's not the kids you have to convince, it's the PARENTS.  Today's game they let the kids run the bases after the game, which I'm guessing is why my sis and bro-in-law took them. The Twins should have as many kid-friendly promotions as they can. By the way, if you want to see tons of kids you should go across the river to a Saints game, they've got the formula.

It's definitely important to get kids to games - but how kid-friendly do you want your baseball? You mentioned the NBA does a good job. Unfortunately, the NBA is unwatchable for adults over the age of 25. It's basically aimed at teenagers, with non-stop music, t-shirt cannons, TikTok memes and selfie contests. I haven't watched an NBA game in at least 15 years, and I haven't been to a game in 20, mainly a professional basketball game nothing more than a place to take 8 year-olds for birthday parties. It's basically Chuck E. Cheese on a hardcourt......but I digress.

Back to MLB - the problem in my opinion are the ticket prices. Back when I was growing up in the 80's, the Twins were a cheap option for my grandparents and parents. In 1987 the AVERAGE ticket price was $6 bucks! Today the average ticket price is $38. That's insane. An average family of four drops $160 bucks for tickets - and that's before taxes and processing fees which probably take it up closer to $45 per ticket. That's $180 bucks BEFORE you pay $20 for parking and at least $60 for food.

So doing my Florida Math (drumroll please), families are paying $260 bucks to attend a freaking baseball game on average. It's insane. Make it more affordable for working class families, and they'll bring the kids. Or make sure the team is good. The Twins are failing at both.

 

[TheLeviathan]

28 minutes ago, bighat said:

Last time I checked, kids don't buy their own tickets to baseball games. My niece and nephew are 9 and 7 years old and went to the game today - they didn't just take an Uber to the stadium and plunk down their AMEX card. It's not the kids you have to convince, it's the PARENTS.  Today's game they let the kids run the bases after the game, which I'm guessing is why my sis and bro-in-law took them. The Twins should have as many kid-friendly promotions as they can. By the way, if you want to see tons of kids you should go across the river to a Saints game, they've got the formula.

It's definitely important to get kids to games - but how kid-friendly do you want your baseball? You mentioned the NBA does a good job. Unfortunately, the NBA is unwatchable for adults over the age of 25. It's basically aimed at teenagers, with non-stop music, t-shirt cannons, TikTok memes and selfie contests. I haven't watched an NBA game in at least 15 years, and I haven't been to a game in 20, mainly a professional basketball game nothing more than a place to take 8 year-olds for birthday parties. It's basically Chuck E. Cheese on a hardcourt......but I digress.

Back to MLB - the problem in my opinion are the ticket prices. Back when I was growing up in the 80's, the Twins were a cheap option for my grandparents and parents. In 1987 the AVERAGE ticket price was $6 bucks! Today the average ticket price is $38. That's insane. An average family of four drops $160 bucks for tickets - and that's before taxes and processing fees which probably take it up closer to $45 per ticket. That's $180 bucks BEFORE you pay $20 for parking and at least $60 for food.

So doing my Florida Math (drumroll please), families are paying $260 bucks to attend a freaking baseball game on average. It's insane. Make it more affordable for working class families, and they'll bring the kids. Or make sure the team is good. The Twins are failing at both.

 

I'll just say this: technology has made it so that kids take in/engage with sports in a very different way than in the past.  Any league that wants a healthy future should be attentive to those new avenues of engagement.  Baseball is not.  And, given the state of the game, I'm not convinced it would even matter if they were.

You are certainly right that pricing at baseball games can be pretty absurd for a family.  (Just took mine last week, so I hear you)  But the butts that sit in those seats are cultivated for months and years prior to that decision.  Right now, kids just don't care about MLB like they do the NBA and NFL.  And more and more of us that were lifelong fans are finding it harder and harder to want to watch baseball.  That means we're less likely to buy those expensive tickets, especially when our kids could care less about the game.

That's a toxic combo.

[Number3]

Not just baseball but I believe even the all mighty NFL is not immune to declining interest. A major problem is too much media saturation and the game(s) you choose to watch are ruined by slow play and ridiculous commercials. NFL is somewhat protected by playing only 17 games but the overexposure will affect it too sooner rather than later. Deep down, and will never be admitted, I think these huge contracts have had an effect on the blue collar fan. Players today have more in common with hedge fund managers than they do with plain old working folks. We have to pay to see them play? They should be paying us to go the games.

[AceWrigley]

20 hours ago, Otto von Ballpark said:

By the power vested in me by no one in particular, I now christen you a Rocket City Trash Panda:

 

Damn.

[wsnydes]

8 minutes ago, Number3 said:

Not just baseball but I believe even the all mighty NFL is not immune to declining interest. A major problem is too much media saturation and the game(s) you choose to watch are ruined by slow play and ridiculous commercials. NFL is somewhat protected by playing only 17 games but the overexposure will affect it too sooner rather than later. Deep down, and will never be admitted, I think these huge contracts have had an effect on the blue collar fan. Players today have more in common with hedge fund managers than they do with plain old working folks. We have to pay to see them play? They should be paying us to go the games.

I quit watching the NFL about a decade ago.  I got tired of the endless, year round media saturation, constant rule changes, slow play and the fact that a catch was the most disputed thing in the game despite it happening about 100 times in each game.  It ceased being football to me.  So, you are absolutely correct.

Baseball has started down that same path for me, unfortunately.  And it's always been my favorite sport.  Slow, boring play has turned me off quite a bit.  Like @Vanimal46, my group of friends that talk Twins, or even baseball in general, has shrunk considerably.  I can't watch games (Hulu subscriber) and really have made no effort to figure out a way to do so.  I'll listen to 3 or 4 games a week on the radio or follow via Gamecast.  I used to attend 30 some odd games a year, now I'm down to 10  to 15.  I've still got my season tickets, but I don't even enjoy the gameday experience as much as I used to.  I've minimized the time (and money) I spend there now, whereas I used to be in the doors as soon as they opened so I could watch BP.

If the game can manage to start turning away fans like me, it's in trouble.  And it's difficult for me to see how they can change that trajectory.  

[snap4birds]

If I were King of Baseball, I'd move the mound back a foot (or experiment to see what is the proper distance), move the fences back about 10 feet in every park, and ban the shift. 

Moving the mound back would lead to more singles/doubles/triples and fewer strikeouts.  This would mean shorter at-bats (and length of games).  There'd still be the chance of an outfielder stealing a homerun (this is why I prefer moving the fences back to just placing a plexiglass addition on top of the fences), and and increased importance on defense.  And banning the shift is negotiable.  

Of course, I realize that not every park could add 10 feet of play (I don't think they can move the Green Monster back).  But if I'm King, they have to make it happen ? or off with their heads!

[Dodecahedron]

Baseball has been on the wrong trajectory for a very long time, this goes all the way back to the baseball strike in the 90s.

The MLB and the owners make enough money to where they have the luxury of making mistakes.  And wow, can they make mistakes.  Every year it's something new.  Other leagues would have gone bankrupt ten times over by now with all this drama.  Look at the NHL, which declared bankruptcy but was nowhere near this level of corruption.  Honestly, I doubt even the NFL would have survived this level of cheating and mismanagement.  There are people alive today who are too young to remember the MLB not being cheaters and not making daft mistakes every year.

[bighat]

30 minutes ago, Number3 said:

I think these huge contracts have had an effect on the blue collar fan. Players today have more in common with hedge fund managers than they do with plain old working folks. We have to pay to see them play? They should be paying us to go the games.

Do you also begrudge Tom Hanks' salary? Should Dave Chappelle just do free stand-up comedy and let fans into the show for no charge? And let's not forget music - Elvis Presley and Led Zeppelin and Whitney Houston should be paying US to come to their concerts....

Professional entertainers at the highest level are not going to be paid the same as construction workers. That's just not how the world works.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Heck, the Twins themselves are promoting apathy with stunts like we saw on Saturday. Here’s Reusse:

Twins attendance has been a flop since pandemic restrictions were softened. Still, there might have been 18,000 on Saturday. Traditionally, summer weekends are when families from around the area plan their one or two trips a season to Target Field.

Come Saturday:

They arrive, pay their $12 to park, let the kids make a first run to a concession stand, and then they look at the field and wonder where are the players, getting loose, ready for a ballgame.

Then comes the delay, followed by the announcement there would be no game, and even the kids squint into the sun and ask, “Why not?”

Twins forget their fans with a flimsy excuse for a rainout

 

[TheLeviathan]

38 minutes ago, wsnydes said:

I quit watching the NFL about a decade ago.  I got tired of the endless, year round media saturation, constant rule changes, slow play and the fact that a catch was the most disputed thing in the game despite it happening about 100 times in each game.  It ceased being football to me.  So, you are absolutely correct.

Baseball has started down that same path for me, unfortunately.  And it's always been my favorite sport.  Slow, boring play has turned me off quite a bit.  Like @Vanimal46, my group of friends that talk Twins, or even baseball in general, has shrunk considerably.  I can't watch games (Hulu subscriber) and really have made no effort to figure out a way to do so.  I'll listen to 3 or 4 games a week on the radio or follow via Gamecast.  I used to attend 30 some odd games a year, now I'm down to 10  to 15.  I've still got my season tickets, but I don't even enjoy the gameday experience as much as I used to.  I've minimized the time (and money) I spend there now, whereas I used to be in the doors as soon as they opened so I could watch BP.

If the game can manage to start turning away fans like me, it's in trouble.  And it's difficult for me to see how they can change that trajectory.  

The NFL is not hurting for attention.  Kids playing the sport as a safety concern is a problem, but not apathy or inattention.

The NFL's constant news cycle is robust evidence of the appetite.