Ian Kinsler: Angel Hernandez needs to find a new job.

[SF Twins Fan]

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2017/08/15/detroit-tigers-ian-kinsler-umpire-angel-hernandez/571202001/

 

 

You don't see a player go into this must depth very often and it's pretty refreshing to be honest.  Kinsler is definitely not the only player, coach or fan that thinks Hernandez is an awful ump.  It'll be interesting to see how much Kinsler is suspended for this, but also to see if any change does come as well.

[bluechipper]

The part about Hernandez yelling at Kinsler when he was a rookie about getting in his way to make a call at first is really weird, and I'm surprised stuff like this goes on. Some of these umpires are just clowns.

[jimbo92107]

“I’m just saying it’s pretty obvious that he needs to stop ruining baseball games.” And, “Candidly, leave the game. No one wants you behind the plate anymore. No one in this game wants you behind the plate any more, none of the players.”

 

Wow, that's heavy. I don't know much about Hernandez, but if he's really like this, the league has to do something. We have all seen umpires insert themselves far too heavily into the game, and it's not why fans buy tickets. Kinsler should not be suspended for expressing an honest opinion with no rancor. That's not right. In fact, that's unconstitutional and un-American. 

[Thrylos]

 

 

 

Kinsler should not be suspended for expressing an honest opinion with no rancor. That's not right. In fact, that's unconstitutional and un-American. 

 

Well, it happened to what's his face, and most of us applauded it.

 

Umpires are the only part of the game that is not being held accountable in a transparent way.  MLB should have standards of performance and dismiss umpires who do not meet or exceed.  Too many egos among the ranks of the umpires, with too much power to effect a game's outcome, and that has to be dealt.

[Oldgoat_MN]

Hernandez, West and Bucknor have no business being MLB umpires.

With Major League umpires there appears to be absolutely no accountability. No matter how bad they are for how long I do not remember an umpire being demoted or fired because they make an unusual number of bad calls.

I'm not referring to the Jim Joyces of the world. He made a very bad call that lost a perfect game for a kid. But he was a very good umpire. We expect poor calls occasionally. It happens.

 

When it happens again and again we have an issue.

[drjim]

This can't help Angel Hernandez's lawsuit against the union.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Here's an idea for Hernandez:

 

 

 

[mickeymental]

i'm lookin at you, phil cuzzi.

[nicksaviking]

I don't think there's nearly enough turnover in umpiring crews. Sorry to sound ageist, but I think AARP members in professional baseball should be the exception not the rule. If you make it that long, you should be really, really good, not because you're grandfathered in (pun intended).

 

To be good at just about any occupation, I think you need to figure out a way to stay fresh and focused, and you need at least a possibility of job insecurity if performance warrants it.

 

These guys need to have a better incentive to be good and be correct than getting post season work. What happened to the uniform strikezone that was implemented a few years back? Why are we still hearing "Joe West is giving a couple inches off the plate" or "Phil Cuzzi has a high zone today"? They're not supposed to be doing that, why are there no consequences for blatant disregard of the rules?

[Mr. Brooks]

“I’m just saying it’s pretty obvious that he needs to stop ruining baseball games.” And, “Candidly, leave the game. No one wants you behind the plate anymore. No one in this game wants you behind the plate any more, none of the players.”

 

Wow, that's heavy. I don't know much about Hernandez, but if he's really like this, the league has to do something. We have all seen umpires insert themselves far too heavily into the game, and it's not why fans buy tickets. Kinsler should not be suspended for expressing an honest opinion with no rancor. That's not right. In fact, that's unconstitutional and un-American.

Many people have this same misbelief about what the 1st amendment is.

It is there to protect your free speech from GOVERNMENT persecution. Not so that you can say anything you want without repercussions from employers.

[Blackjack]

Kinsler will get fined/suspended and nothing will happen to Hernandez, if the league or union were concerned about him, they would have done something long ago. Plus, it sets a bad, bad precedent if they act now when a player complains. 

[Shaitan]

 

Kinsler should not be suspended for expressing an honest opinion with no rancor. That's not right. In fact, that's unconstitutional and un-American. 

This is an aside from the baseball talk, but censorship is when a government restricts individual rights. An employer-employee relationship is a different scenario. This has nothing to do with the constitution or being "American."

[jimbo92107]

 

Many people have this same misbelief about what the 1st amendment is.
It is there to protect your free speech from GOVERNMENT persecution. Not so that you can say anything you want without repercussions from employers.

Really? So, a corporation has the right to ban free and honest speech, and punish the speaker? I understand when speech is disruptive to business, but in this case, Kinsler's remarks actually were meant to help the league maintain its integrity. If the league now chooses to fine or suspend Kinsler, he would be within his rights to sue the league.

 

In court, the league would then be asked how they were injured by Kinsler's comments, which explicitly were meant to be helpful. If the league then further punishes Kinsler, they would be opening themselves up to a much larger, more expensive lawsuit. And Kinsler would win...on First Amendment grounds. The reason that works is in the way the amendment was worded, "Congress shall make no law..." That includes laws that otherwise allow corporations to enforce their own internal rules. 

 

I'm no lawyer, but that's my impression of how the First Amendment works. It's supposed to protect free speech unless you use it for truly destructive purposes, like shouting "Fire" in a crowded theater, when there is no fire. Pointing out an obviously bad umpire is hardly a destructive observation. The league should thank Kinsler and investigate Hernandez for other incidents of abuse. If I'm wrong, somebody please correct ignorant old me. 

[Mr. Brooks]

Really? So, a corporation has the right to ban free and honest speech, and punish the speaker? I understand when speech is disruptive to business, but in this case, Kinsler's remarks actually were meant to help the league maintain its integrity. If the league now chooses to fine or suspend Kinsler, he would be within his rights to sue the league.

 

In court, the league would then be asked how they were injured by Kinsler's comments, which explicitly were meant to be helpful. If the league then further punishes Kinsler, they would be opening themselves up to a much larger, more expensive lawsuit. And Kinsler would win...on First Amendment grounds. The reason that works is in the way the amendment was worded, "Congress shall make no law..." That includes laws that otherwise allow corporations to enforce their own internal rules.

 

I'm no lawyer, but that's my impression of how the First Amendment works. It's supposed to protect free speech unless you use it for truly destructive purposes, like shouting "Fire" in a crowded theater, when there is no fire. Pointing out an obviously bad umpire is hardly a destructive observation. The league should thank Kinsler and investigate Hernandez for other incidents of abuse. If I'm wrong, somebody please correct ignorant old me.

Well sorry you're wrong. That's not what the 1st amendment does.

When it comes to private employers, this has been firmly settled.

Government workers are more complicated, obviously, but that's not applicable here.

 

That's not to say Kinsler couldn't sue. But, if he did it would be on grounds of breach of contract, not first amendment.

 

People get fired for saying stupid stuff everyday. In all fields, from fast food workers to lawyers. Every single day.

A bunch of people in MN just got fired today for going to nazi rallies in their spare time, including 2 from Uptown Grill. Every news source says the firings are 100% legal.

 

Every day all around the country people lose their jobs for posting stupid crap on their personal social media accounts.

 

A few days ago out it was a cop who shared a Facebook meme about catching your daughter dating a black guy.

[Old Twins Cap]

The point is:  Joe West made it to 5,000 games or whatever it was.

 

And umpires like him, Angel Hernandez, -- who can forget Phil Cuzzi, stationed down the left field line in the playoffs Twins vs. Yankees, missed that Mauer's late inning line drive both touched the left-fielder and landed fair -- and on, the point being:   is there ever any turnover based on performance?

 

Like cops, somehow, bad umpires persist, continuing to make bad calls.  Luckily, no one gets killed but it certainly isn't good for the game.

 

In the end, merit should rule selection of umpires.  MLB has more data now, can they implement some level of accountability?  If not, be transparent and explain to the community of baseball lovers why they can't select based on merit.

 

And Good on Kinsler,  whatever it costs him.

[Shaitan]

These types of comments are usually settled quietly. Kinsler will probably get an "undisclosed fine" and everyone will move on. 

[jimbo92107]

 

Well sorry you're wrong. That's not what the 1st amendment does.
When it comes to private employers, this has been firmly settled.
Government workers are more complicated, obviously, but that's not applicable here.

That's not to say Kinsler couldn't sue. But, if he did it would be on grounds of breach of contract, not first amendment.

People get fired for saying stupid stuff everyday. In all fields, from fast food workers to lawyers. Every single day.
A bunch of people in MN just got fired today for going to nazi rallies in their spare time, including 2 from Uptown Grill. Every news source says the firings are 100% legal.

Every day all around the country people lose their jobs for posting stupid crap on their personal social media accounts.

A few days ago out it was a cop who shared a Facebook meme about catching your daughter dating a black guy.

The salient qualifier here is "stupid stuff." Did Kinsler say something stupid when he criticized Hernandez? No, it was a responsible observation that lots of players doubtless agree with. That is why, if the league decides to fine him or suspend him, he would have very solid grounds to sue. 

 

Breach of contract? Of course. With regards to what? Free speech. You may call it "settled law," but his lawyer will argue that a corporation (or a group of them calling themselves a league) still does not have the right to bar free speech. Laws that determine the structure of corporations must interact with more general rights granted to you and me under the national constitution. Corporate law is a subset of national law. It does not supersede national law. Of course, there I go being naive...

[PseudoSABR]

 

The salient qualifier here is "stupid stuff." Did Kinsler say something stupid when he criticized Hernandez? No, it was a responsible observation that lots of players doubtless agree with. That is why, if the league decides to fine him or suspend him, he would have very solid grounds to sue. 

 

Breach of contract? Of course. With regards to what? Free speech. You may call it "settled law," but his lawyer will argue that a corporation (or a group of them calling themselves a league) still does not have the right to bar free speech. Laws that determine the structure of corporations must interact with more general rights granted to you and me under the national constitution. Corporate law is a subset of national law. It does not supersede national law. Of course, there I go being naive...

Kinsler gave away a lot of his rights to sue when he signed his contract, any suspension grievances are dealt with through whatever he agreed to in the contract (likely an appeal to some MLB board, then likely to private arbitration, and then maybe to US district court).  If Kinsler's suspension wasn't dictated by contract, he may have some standing to sue in non-right-to-work-states. 

 

He probably wouldn't have any constitutional grounds to sue on.  The First Amendment only applies to the Government (Federal/State/local) and 'state' actors.  Because, Major League Baseball is a private association, the First Amendment will not apply.  (It should be noted, that contrary to law under the first amendment, businesses that enter interstate commerce are subject to the equal protection under the 14th amendment and Civil Rights Act of 1964--hence the controversy over Hobby Lobby and bakery-homophobes).  

 

That said, if Hernandez were to sue Kinsler for defamation, Kinsler would have a viable defense in asserting that what he said about Hernandez was, indeed, true.  I bet this is what you're thinking.

[Vanimal46]

Maybe MLB should automate umpires, because who would want this job? I generally don't rip on umpires from personal experiences... 3 groups will always have an issue with your ability to call a game - both teams, and the fans. I think we all take for granted how difficult it truly is to be an umpire at the highest level in the sport. 

[VirginSturgeon]

 

Maybe MLB should automate umpires, because who would want this job? I generally don't rip on umpires from personal experiences... 3 groups will always have an issue with your ability to call a game - both teams, and the fans. I think we all take for granted how difficult it truly is to be an umpire at the highest level in the sport. 

 

I agree it is a very hard job and a good umpire usually isn't appreciated.  The issue I have with umpires is when they seem to want to show up players with ridiculous ring them up routines.  To be honest no one gives 2 Sh*** about the umpire, we all are watching because we love the game of baseball and the super talented players.

[Ebby Calvin Laloosh]

It seems so simple to fix. The stats have to be available on umps. I assume the league must have an analytics department, just analyze the umps using the data, make the data public and bingo. Just like every FO does with its players, use the data to look objectively at the performance. I don't understand why this is an issue. The bad umps should be easy to identify, for some reason the players can identify them pretty easily, even the fans can see them, but the MLB can't? Just fix it.

[USAFChief]

I'm confident all MLB players are under contracted restrictions about what they can and can't say about umpires. It makes sense in that no good comes from public and constant criticism of umpires. Such criticism only accomplishes the inevitable undermining of fans' faith in the honesty of the outcome of games. It's the same reason gambling is a mortal sin and cannot be allowed. Kinsler might be right, but he knows he shouldn't make those kind of public statements and deserves whatever punishment he gets.

 

It's possible Hernandez should be replaced by a minor league ump. Probable even. But in general, constantly replacing experienced umps with rookies will inevitably lower the quality of umpiring, not raise it.

 

And Major League Baseball, overall, enjoys the best officiating of any of the major sports. Easily. Orders of magnitude better than the NFL, and much better than the NBA. Only the PGA enjoys as good or better officiating, and that's largely self officiated.

[big dog]

 

I'm confident all MLB players are under contracted restrictions about what they can and can't say about umpires. It makes sense in that no good comes from public and constant criticism of umpires. Such criticism only accomplishes the inevitable undermining of fans' faith in the honesty of the outcome of games. It's the same reason gambling is a mortal sin and cannot be allowed. Kinsler might be right, but he knows he shouldn't make those kind of public statements and deserves whatever punishment he gets.

It's possible Hernandez should be replaced by a minor league ump. Probable even. But in general, constantly replacing experienced umps with rookies will inevitably lower the quality of umpiring, not raise it.

And Major League Baseball, overall, enjoys the best officiating of any of the major sports. Easily. Orders of magnitude better than the NFL, and much better than the NBA. Only the PGA enjoys as good or better officiating, and that's largely self officiated.

Totally agree, especially about the quality of officiating- no comparison.  On the other hand umpires are the only ones who get to stand in one place for the whole game and have the plays come to them, from the same direction 99.5% of the time.  I hate the job NBA refs do, but they have to run at work a lot more than I do.

 

We absolutely should not constantly replace experienced umps with rookies, agreed.  But replacing a couple of clowns with the top two minor league umpires once every few years should be a win.

[spinowner]

 

It seems so simple to fix. The stats have to be available on umps. I assume the league must have an analytics department, just analyze the umps using the data, make the data public and bingo. Just like every FO does with its players, use the data to look objectively at the performance. I don't understand why this is an issue. The bad umps should be easy to identify, for some reason the players can identify them pretty easily, even the fans can see them, but the MLB can't? Just fix it.

There are a number of analyses that have been done on strike zone accuracy and consistency and it would be very easy for MLB to coach the lower-performing umps with a goal of improvement in performance. There are other aspects of umpiring that can be assessed, especially in this era of multiple camera angles and extensive use of replay challenges. Which umpires make incorrect calls the most frequently? Which umpires are most often not in correct position to make a call?

MLB should negotiate to have measures of performance incorporated into the next collective bargaining agreement with bonuses for the best performers and reassignment to the minor leagues for the laggards. This is long overdue.

 

Edited to add: And seniority should not be part of the formula. You earn the privilege of working in the majors based on performance alone regardless of age or experience.

[SF Twins Fan]

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/tigers-ian-kinsler-reportedly-receives-massive-fine-for-comments-about-umpire/

 

Here is an update.  He was fined $10,000 which is less than I expected for his punishment.  I assumed he would have been suspended for at least a game.

[Old Twins Cap]

 

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/tigers-ian-kinsler-reportedly-receives-massive-fine-for-comments-about-umpire/

 

Here is an update.  He was fined $10,000 which is less than I expected for his punishment.  I assumed he would have been suspended for at least a game.

 

Umpires are wearing wrist bands to protest this leniency.  Some are anyway.  Angel is wearing a white one.

[h2oface]

 

Maybe MLB should automate umpires, because who would want this job? I generally don't rip on umpires from personal experiences... 3 groups will always have an issue with your ability to call a game - both teams, and the fans. I think we all take for granted how difficult it truly is to be an umpire at the highest level in the sport. 

 

I agree totally. In fact, it is impossible for an umpire to do the job correctly, and always has been. That will be changing within 5 or 10 years, and it should have already changed. The point is to get it right, and the game be in the hands of the players, and not the umpires. Slowly will will get there, and even the balls and strikes.

[SweetOne69]

 

Umpires are wearing wrist bands to protest this leniency.  Some are anyway.  Angel is wearing a white one.

I noticed that Hernandez was wearing one on Saturday, but he wasn't on Sunday so I guess it was a 1 day protest.

[gil4]

Well, it happened to what's his face, and most of us applauded it.

 

Umpires are the only part of the game that is not being held accountable in a transparent way.  MLB should have standards of performance and dismiss umpires who do not meet or exceed.  Too many egos among the ranks of the umpires, with too much power to effect a game's outcome, and that has to be dealt.

Just to emphasize your point, Joe West was suspended for three games for calling Adrian Beltre the biggest complainer in the game, and his comments were nowhere near as malicious as what Kinsler said. West's comments were in response to a direct question (at least, that's the only way they make sense) and were really fairly light-hearted: "It's got to be Adrian Beltre. Every pitch you call that's a strike, he says, "Whoa! Whoa! Whoa!' I had a game with him recently and the pitch was right down the middle. He tells me, "That ball is outside.' "I told him, 'You may be a great ballplayer, but you're the worst umpire in the league. You stink.'' I think Joe West could have told that with Beltre sitting next to him and there would have been no ill will between them. (Beltre would have laughed and said "it was a foot outside, Joe" but that would have been it.)

 

The Kinsler comments were personal, vicious, directly involving the guy's livelihood, and will impact the fans in every game Hernandez umpires in the future. (Most fans couldn't tell a great umpire from a horrible one, but they can sure repeat what Kinsler said.) My guess is MLB has a process for teams to address grievances with officiating, and I'm pretty sure ranting to the media isn't part of it. I thought a 3-day suspension was the baseline they should have started with, and the $10,000 fine was less than a slap on the wrist. (His salary is $11M for this year, which equals $67,901.23 per game, or $7,544 per inning. He was fined 1.3 innings' salary. How will he feed his family?)

[KirbyDome89]

 

Just to emphasize your point, Joe West was suspended for three games for calling Adrian Beltre the biggest complainer in the game, and his comments were nowhere near as malicious as what Kinsler said. West's comments were in response to a direct question (at least, that's the only way they make sense) and were really fairly light-hearted: "It's got to be Adrian Beltre. Every pitch you call that's a strike, he says, "Whoa! Whoa! Whoa!' I had a game with him recently and the pitch was right down the middle. He tells me, "That ball is outside.' "I told him, 'You may be a great ballplayer, but you're the worst umpire in the league. You stink.'' I think Joe West could have told that with Beltre sitting next to him and there would have been no ill will between them. (Beltre would have laughed and said "it was a foot outside, Joe" but that would have been it.)

The Kinsler comments were personal, vicious, directly involving the guy's livelihood, and will impact the fans in every game Hernandez umpires in the future. (Most fans couldn't tell a great umpire from a horrible one, but they can sure repeat what Kinsler said.) My guess is MLB has a process for teams to address grievances with officiating, and I'm pretty sure ranting to the media isn't part of it. I thought a 3-day suspension was the baseline they should have started with, and the $10,000 fine was less than a slap on the wrist. (His salary is $11M for this year, which equals $67,901.23 per game, or $7,544 per inning. He was fined 1.3 innings' salary. How will he feed his family?)

What was personal about Kinsler's comments? He called out Hernandez for being a bad ump and said his poor performance is affecting the outcome of games; which it is. Did you read the whole article and all the comments Kinsler made? I didn't see anything I would classify as malicious or vicious.