Allen and Brunansky gone?

[big dog]

 

Jr Graham is pitching much better in the Yankees organization,  Fien pitched better in LA.  Regression under Eddie, not much for improvement. Even from bad to mediocre.

Fien pitched better in LA?  FIP over 6.0, given his outright release.  Let's at least be reasonable.

[brvama]

^{Mike Beradino of the Pioneer Press had an interesting piece this past week on the pitching problems of the Twins.  He quotes Allen often, who says the there is a systemic failure in the Twins organization with fastball command and how pitchers are developed.  You can read it here:  Gives me a different view on Allen.}

[Platoon]

I don't know if Bruno or Allen is leaving, but Molitor was on Sid this morning and seemed extremely confidant he was returning. I only caught the last part, but he seemed to focus on correcting all the right things. The fact that they were almost all decisions he made seemed to escape the attention of both Molitor, Sid, and the host. (I think Mike Max)

[DrNeau]

Okay, now you are putting words into my mouth that I didn't say, or even imply.

I was talking to PseudoSABR.

[old nurse]

 

Fien pitched better in LA?  FIP over 6.0, given his outright release.  Let's at least be reasonable.

There are a few people here on earlier threads bringing up Fien as why the Twins coaching is horrible,  I like to remind them of less bad is still bad. I thought for sure the list would reappear on this thread.  Adding JR was merely trying to show the sarcastic nature of the bit.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

^{Mike Beradino of the Pioneer Press had an interesting piece this past week on the pitching problems of the Twins. He quotes Allen often, who says the there is a systemic failure in the Twins organization with fastball command and how pitchers are developed. You can read it here: Gives me a different view on Allen.}

Agreed, thanks for sharing

 

however this gave me pause

 

 

"Toward that end, Allen spent extra time in late September crafting a systemwide pitching plan that would govern the way young Twins arms are brought along. Allen, whose status for next season remains unclear along with the rest of the big-league coaching staff, presented his detailed program to Molitor before heading home after the season.

 

Fastball command, if Allen gets his wish, will move from being part of the curriculum for young Twins pitchers to being the primary focus at the lower levels."

 

Where the heck are the player development people who should be doing this?

 

I'd still be ok if they gave Allen the boot, cause results matter most.

[HitInAPinch]

 

^{Mike Beradino of the Pioneer Press had an interesting piece this past week on the pitching problems of the Twins.  He quotes Allen often, who says the there is a systemic failure in the Twins organization with fastball command and how pitchers are developed.  You can read it here:  Gives me a different view on Allen.}

Yeah, these comments from Allen and Molitor really disturbs me.  How can any pitcher in anyone's MiLB not learn fastball control is a #1 issue?  And Berrios???  Get's called up to the MLB and in his last stint, Allen had to start re-teaching him how to pitch, starting with the windup? 

 

Maybe we should be looking more at the Twins MiLB development program?

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Watch a Cubs, Indians, or Chattanooga Lookouts game and you will see a noticeable difference in how a manager interacts with their players. I agree there is more going on than what we observe, but assessments made on observable content can't be dismissed simply out of reserving hope - or faith - that Molitor is a different person off the field.

It's possible Molitor puts on his game face as manager and that's all you see.

 

In any case, it's impossible to make an educated evaluation of a manager based on the 1-2% of the game he's on the television set. It requires you to not only extrapolate out the remaining 98-99% of game time, it requires you to completely disregard the times when coaching actually happens in baseball: on flights, pre-game workouts, post-game meetings, non-game days, and the entire preseason.

 

Add in the time Molitor is with the players that we don't see at all, and you're basing a judgment on literally one hundredth of one percentage point. A manager is within shouting distance of his players for 10-16 hours a day over a six month period. Yet you claim to understand his coaching style based on the literally 30-45 seconds of nightly game time footage we see as fans?

 

One cannot evaluate the competency of a manager with such scant information.

 

And, for the record, I'm all on board with firing Molitor so it's not like I'm going out of my way to defend the guy.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Perhaps you feel the manager of a MLB team should act like a little league coach--all hugging and nurturing? At this level such management style would be unique. The manager should never pose as a player's "friend"--because he isn't! Performance standards must be established and enforced. The manager is the one responsible to decide if the player has failed and needs discipline or removal from the team. His judgement should never be clouded by "friendship".

 

He never said that, not once. Nice strawman though.

 

edit: to be clear....I don't agree that we can tell anything from watching tv....so I don't agree with his argument.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Agreed, thanks for sharing

however this gave me pause


"Toward that end, Allen spent extra time in late September crafting a systemwide pitching plan that would govern the way young Twins arms are brought along. Allen, whose status for next season remains unclear along with the rest of the big-league coaching staff, presented his detailed program to Molitor before heading home after the season.

Fastball command, if Allen gets his wish, will move from being part of the curriculum for young Twins pitchers to being the primary focus at the lower levels."

Where the heck are the player development people who should be doing this?

I'd still be ok if they gave Allen the boot, cause results matter most.

 

not only that, but why wasn't this done at the beginning of the year? Is Allen not in charge of how pitchers are taught in the system? I'd think that's how I'd set it up.

 

This the THE pitching coach. He says what our strategy is across the org. Everyone else align to that strategy.

 

If it isn't set up that way, uh, why not?

[Kwak]

 

I have the MLB.TV package, and watch nearly every game. I watch way more than just a few clips here and there. Molitor rarely talks to the players - period. The players don't approach him much to talk, either. No one will argue this because it's clear; anyone who does - is not watching the games. 

 

Bruno... you can hear him during every player's at bat. He is audibly right in your TV.

"ATTA BOY!""

"GOOD TAKE!"

He does the same thing when working with them on tee drills and in the cage. He's rooting them on. Molitor? Not so much. Distant. 

 

 

He never said that, not once. Nice strawman though.

 

edit: to be clear....I don't agree that we can tell anything from watching tv....so I don't agree with his argument.

I included the original quote to show my post isn't a strawman argument. The original post is contrasting Molitor's (presumed) silence and Bruno getting all "nurturing" ("ATTA BOY", and "GOOD TAKE"). True, the original post didn't include: "That's OK. C'mere I'll give you a hug and make it all better" (after said player strikes out). But the implication is that Bruno is "supportive" and "nurturing" while Molitor simply ignores the players. At least molitor doesn't chew them out (in the dugout) after they screw-up--or get all "Mike Ditka like and grab the player and chew him out in the middle of the field.

 

[nicksaviking]

 

I have the MLB.TV package, and watch nearly every game. I watch way more than just a few clips here and there. Molitor rarely talks to the players - period. The players don't approach him much to talk, either. No one will argue this because it's clear; anyone who does - is not watching the games. 

 

Bruno... you can hear him during every player's at bat. He is audibly right in your TV.

"ATTA BOY!""

"GOOD TAKE!"

He does the same thing when working with them on tee drills and in the cage. He's rooting them on. Molitor? Not so much. Distant. 

 

Molitor also never poops as evidenced by the fact that the camera never shows him doing it. What kind of human never poops? I'm not cool with an android manager.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I included the original quote to show my post isn't a strawman argument. The original post is contrasting Molitor's (presumed) silence and Bruno getting all "nurturing" ("ATTA BOY", and "GOOD TAKE"). True, the original post didn't include: "That's OK. C'mere I'll give you a hug and make it all better" (after said player strikes out). But the implication is that Bruno is "supportive" and "nurturing" while Molitor simply ignores the players. At least molitor doesn't chew them out (in the dugout) after they screw-up--or get all "Mike Ditka like and grab the player and chew him out in the middle of the field.

 

ok, fair. I didn't read it the same way, but I can see how others would. thanks for the polite correction! Really like the tone here most days a lot.

[Craig Arko]

 

Molitor also never poops as evidenced by the fact that the camera never shows him doing it. What kind of human never poops? I'm not cool with an android manager.

Now that you mention it, I've never seen Molitor and Brent Spiner in a room at the same time.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I admire Allen for wanting to take control of the pitching mess, but like others, I find something a little off or disconnected about his comments. Not sure what. 

[Squirrel]

Molitor also never poops as evidenced by the fact that the camera never shows him doing it. What kind of human never poops? I'm not cool with an android manager.

Okay, my day is good now. Lol!

[old nurse]

Given the statements on control maybe Allen was giving the pushback on Meyer not starting.

 

[HitInAPinch]

Molitor never poops?    Wow, that stinks.

[ashbury]

I admire Allen for wanting to take control of the pitching mess, but like others, I find something a little off or disconnected about his comments. Not sure what. 

Maybe he is trying to avoid throwing Terry Ryan under the bus in his public comments, but in private he is telling the front office that if Ryan had given him full control in the system things would be better by now. Supposing, for now, that Ryan somehow undercut Allen's authority.

[jimmer]

 

I like the article. This article kind of debunks the myth that the major league staff has been entirely the problem. 

I don't see how anyone could have thought that to begin with.  Can't have practically every supposed top notch prospect come up and just stink up the joint and then think it's all the fault of the ML coaching.

[Thrylos]

 

Maybe he is trying to avoid throwing Terry Ryan under the bus in his public comments, but in private he is telling the front office that if Ryan had given him full control in the system things would be better by now. Supposing, for now, that Ryan somehow undercut Allen's authority.

 

Here is the problem I have with Allen's blah blah: inconsistency.  He does not walk his own talk.  For example, this piece from the article:

 

Words:

 

 

 

“The breaking ball doesn’t come into play if you can’t throw the fastball for strikes,” Allen said. “We’re going to enforce that heavily next year."

 

Actions:

 

26 games started by Tyler Duffey (including 16 after Ryan was fired.)  And Duffey is the poster boy of a pitcher who cannot command and control his fastball.

 

I just don't buy his words and/or see any reason that he could not do what he said he was going to do this year last year.

 

Maybe the Twins offered him a position in their minor league/instructional stuff and he is preparing for that.  Who knows. 

 

But he did not walk his talk...

[Thrylos]

 

I agree with your assessment on Duffey and the Allen article but I don't view Tyler Duffey as a a starter. He just doesn't have the stamina of the type of starter I would like to see the Twins have. Trevor May strikes me as much more of a starting pitcher than Tyler Duffey. I think Duffey is the kind of guy that could thrive in late inning relief. He already has a fine curveball, if he could locate his fastball he could be the bullpen guy that the Twins have tried to make May be. I think May has the stuff to be a starter but the Twins have them reversed too, so what do I know.

 

100% agree. 

 

However.  This is not what Allen did. He started a guy for 26 games who was exactly the opposite of his pitching philosophy supposedly outlined in that article.

 

Point is that either:

 

a. he is either talking about stuff he does not believes (because he did not do it)

or

b. Molitor or Antony or someone else trumped him.

 

That's the problem I have with those articles.  The hard questions are not asked.  Simple question to ask him:

 

"So why you did not do that already?"

 

 

[nicksaviking]

 

100% agree. 

 

However.  This is not what Allen did. He started a guy for 26 games who was exactly the opposite of his pitching philosophy supposedly outlined in that article.

 

Point is that either:

 

a. he is either talking about stuff he does not believes (because he did not do it)

or

b. Molitor or Antony or someone else trumped him.

 

That's the problem I have with those articles.  The hard questions are not asked.  Simple question to ask him:

 

"So why you did not do that already?"

 

To be fair to Allen, he didn't start anybody and a relatively new guy who was away from the team for half the year probably had little pull in organizational matters run by guys who have been here decades. Ryan put Duffy on the roster and Molitor stuck him in the rotation.

 

Now that's not to say I want Allen to stay, I'd prefer fresh eyes. His game plan appears sound, but really it boils down to "Improve the minor leaguer's fastball command before they can advance", which when spelled out basically sounds the same as "Duh".

 

If Falvey likes Allen based on his work with TB minor leaguers that's fine, consider keeping him. I wouldn't do it based on this plan though, it's probably something that was going to be worked on no matter who is running the show.

[Boom Boom]

I do appreciate Allen's candor on the subject. I'm sure that it isn't a coincidence, however, that we only hear about his concerns while the FO is in flux.

[nicksaviking]

 

I do appreciate Allen's candor on the subject. I'm sure that it isn't a coincidence, however, that we only hear about his concerns while the FO is in flux.

 

I don't fault a guy for auditioning for a job. When the pitching was as bad as it was last year, he really has no other option than to play the 'If only they would have listened to me' card.

 

But again, I think they may be able to do better. Maybe not.