Twins Option Berrios, Recall Taylor Rogers

[Vanimal46]

 

I didn't want Berrios to be sent down, especially considering there are no intriguing replacements for him right now, but what happened to your great control, Jose? That's the thing that's really bothering me right now. All he had to do was not be terrible, and he would've been given plenty of shots to stay in the rotation and never pitch in the minors again.

I still believe he had nerves to deal with and put a lot of pressure on himself to succeed. I assume he saw what happened to Rogers and Meyer earlier, and didn't want the same thing to happen to him. 

[nicksaviking]

 

Some posters have adopted Berrios as a future star and are blind to his shortcomings.  Some think it's OK to play "the unready" in major league games and finally some just like to complain.  Curiously there are those who howled about Buxton playing for the Twins when he "wasn't ready", but now demand that Berrios play despite worse results than Buxton's results.  Amazing!

 

That's a blanket statement and largely misleading as I would venture to guess that just about everyone who supported seeing Buxton play at the MLB level are the same people who are now supporting seeing Berrios at the MLB level.

 

Also, Berrios was missing plenty of bats, Buxton was missing plenty of pitches. The pitcher is the causation in the pitcher/batter relationship, as it is the batter that needs to react to the pitcher. Logic would indicate that generally batters SHOULD have to be more ready and need more seasoning to come up and play at the MLB level.

[bluechipper]

 

I still believe he had nerves to deal with and put a lot of pressure on himself to succeed. I assume he saw what happened to Rogers and Meyer earlier, and didn't want the same thing to happen to him. 

That's kinda the sense that I got too. Berrios seems to have extremely high expectations for himself, and he was really pressing. I wonder if he just hasn't gotten something to click yet with his mechanics or something, or if all of the pressure of trying to show what he can do in the MLB got to him a little bit.

[Shane Wahl]

Let's go get Cole DeVries, Sam Deduno, and P.J. Walters again. Let's go back to 2012 fully, and maybe the team will be good by 2020.

 

What, now, if Duffey has two rough starts in a row? I don't know why they bothered with Grossman . . . they could have just called up Clete Thomas to eventually replace Rosario/Arcia.

[Loosey]

So on a contending team the Twins are fine with leaving AA quality relief pitcher in the bullpen all year long even if it means one less roster spot to help the team.  But in a lost season there is no room for the potential future Ace of the team find his way.  Ok, got it. 

[DaveW]

 

Let's go get Cole DeVries, Sam Deduno, and P.J. Walters again. Let's go back to 2012 fully, and maybe the team will be good by 2020.

 

What, now, if Duffey has two rough starts in a row? I don't know why they bothered with Grossman . . . they could have just called up Clete Thomas to eventually replace Rosario/Arcia.

One could make a comparison to "rearranging the chairs on the titanic" but I think that is an extremely gross and upsetting comparison for the Titanic.

The Titanic had 2,200 passengers on board when she sank, however 705 people survived which works it way out to a .320 "win percentage" so to speak.

 

The Twins would KILL for a .320 win percentage currently.

 

You heard it here first folks, the 2016 Twins are a bigger disaster than the titanic.

[Shane Wahl]

 

So on a contending team the Twins are fine with leaving AA quality relief pitcher in the bullpen all year long even if it means one less roster spot to help the team.  But in a lost season there is no room for the potential future Ace of the team find his way.  Ok, got it. 

See Brock's post about being lost in the woods with a broken compass. Now just envision Terry Ryan holding that compass.

Then it *all* becomes clear.

[Shane Wahl]

 

 

One could make a comparison to "rearranging the chairs on the titanic" but I think that is an extremely gross and upsetting comparison for the Titanic.

The Titanic had 2,200 passengers on board when she sank, however 705 people survived which works it way out to a .320 "win percentage" so to speak.

 

The Twins would KILL for a .320 win percentage currently.

 

You heard it here first folks, the 2016 Twins are a bigger disaster than the titanic.

And the band* played on.

* denotes those defending this utter nonsense.

[SwainZag]

 

I still believe he had nerves to deal with and put a lot of pressure on himself to succeed. I assume he saw what happened to Rogers and Meyer earlier, and didn't want the same thing to happen to him. 

 

And he's a very competitive athlete who has been documented to work hard at his craft.  I'm sure there was a good deal of pressure on him, but at the end of the day he knows what he needs to do to be in the major leagues.  I would assume right now he is a lot more upset with himself for not stepping up when he was given a chance rather than be upset with management after making the move. 

[DaveW]

 

And the band* played on.

* denotes those defending this utter nonsense.

Gardy was basically Leo at the end of the film, he more or less was sacrificed while TR could stay afloat. It's kind of beautiful in a way.

[Mike Sixel]

I really, really, really, really want May in AAA, getting stretched out for 3 starts, then in the rotation here.

 

What is the justification for keeping him in the bullpen now?

[Vanimal46]

 

And he's a very competitive athlete who has been documented to work hard at his craft.  I'm sure there was a good deal of pressure on him, but at the end of the day he knows what he needs to do to be in the major leagues.  I would assume right now he is a lot more upset with himself for not stepping up when he was given a chance rather than be upset with management after making the move. 

Stepping off of the ledge a bit now... Yes, I agree he knows what he needed to do to be in the major leagues. Berrios didn't take the league by storm, and hopefully this demotion only lasts a couple of weeks. Berrios is one of my favorite prospects and I may be a little irrational about him. That and the constant yo-yo-ing of all Twins prospects is making me go off the deep end. 

[JustinCB]

To be fair, that Rochester rotation was really looking thin lately.

[Brock Beauchamp]

First four starts of career.

 

Jose Berrios: 15.0 IP, 12 BB, 20 SO, 10.20 ERA

 

Trevor May: 14.1 IP, 13 BB, 7 SO, 8.79 ERA

 

Kyle Gibson: 22.0 IP,  9 BB, 11 SO, 6.45 ERA

 

Those latter two guys seemed to turn out okay once you let them get past the butterflies.

 

But hey, Pat Dean.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I don't think any one is imposing that on him - I imagine it's self-imposed, as a result of the big league atmosphere and perhaps some immaturity.

And how best to get past that?  With more time in Rochester?  Or maybe trying to calm him down and set realistic expectations at the big league level?

[jud6312]

 

First four starts of career.

 

Jose Berrios: 15.0 IP, 12 BB, 20 SO, 10.20 ERA

 

Trevor May: 14.1 IP, 13 BB, 7 SO, 8.79 ERA

 

Kyle Gibson: 22.0 IP,  9 BB, 11 SO, 6.45 ERA

 

Those latter two guys seemed to turn out okay once you let them get past the butterflies.

 

But hey, Pat Dean.

You can't teach crafty. Or left-handed. Or bulldog mentality. Or battling one's tail off.

[Squirrel]

 

One could make a comparison to "rearranging the chairs on the titanic" but I think that is an extremely gross and upsetting comparison for the Titanic.

The Titanic had 2,200 passengers on board when she sank, however 705 people survived which works it way out to a .320 "win percentage" so to speak.

 

The Twins would KILL for a .320 win percentage currently.

 

You heard it here first folks, the 2016 Twins are a bigger disaster than the titanic.

 

See Brock's post about being lost in the woods with a broken compass. Now just envision Terry Ryan holding that compass.

Then it *all* becomes clear.

Let's dial back our own hubris here. Discuss the topic at hand without these unnecessary comparisons. But these 'Good God, how can anyone in their right mind defend this?' statements are rude and disrespectful. Disagree all you want, but do so with your own rationale without characterizing other posters and FO staff so callously. Yes, this is a moderator warning for everyone to just take a breath.

[adorduan]

 

Berrios was also striking out a lot of "major league hitters" so clearly he was doing at least a little something right....

And walking guys, and giving up home runs.....

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I would say optioning Berrios is a necessity of Berrios' own making.

 

If he had shown any signs of being able to pitch in the major leagues, he'd still be here.

Any sign?  20 Ks in 15 innings is a sign, as is 5 runs over 10 innings including a win (his previous two starts).  Not perfect conclusive signs, but signs nonetheless.

 

The post to which I was responding (and quoted) said optioning Berrios was a necessity due to the needs of the roster.  That's the part with which I disagreed most strongly.  Even if you wanted to change something after his most recent performance, sending Berrios to the pen for a bit, or skipping a start, would have been other options, if we had built a more flexible roster.

 

Optioning him, after an admittedly bad game, in favor of Rogers/Dean seems as knee jerk as parking Meyer on the bench after an extra inning game in Washington.  Or optioning Meyer in favor of Graham after 1 start, then DFA'ing Graham a day later to open a 40-man roster spot that has yet to be filled...

[Loosey]

 

Any sign?  20 Ks in 15 innings is a sign, as is 5 runs over 10 innings including a win (his previous two starts).  Not perfect conclusive signs, but signs nonetheless.

 

The post to which I was responding (and quoted) said optioning Berrios was a necessity due to the needs of the roster.  That's the part with which I disagreed most strongly.  Even if you wanted to change something after his most recent performance, sending Berrios to the pen for a bit, or skipping a start, would have been other options, if we had built a more flexible roster.

 

Optioning him, after an admittedly bad game, in favor of Rogers/Dean seems as knee jerk as parking Meyer on the bench after an extra inning game in Washington.  Or optioning Meyer in favor of Graham after 1 start, then DFA'ing Graham a day later to open a 40-man roster spot that has yet to be filled...

I personally would have gone the complete opposite direction that Twins went with Berrios.  Instead of optioning him back to AAA I would have started him again on Thursday since he only threw 39 pitches and told him to get back out there and RELAX, have fun and go dominate.  He won't be punished for a bad game or 2 or 3.  But that's just me.

[Platoon]

The funny thing is we would never have seen Berrios at all if David Murphy hadn't so rudely retired.

Maybe give Berrios at least a couple more starts with Centeno catching him?

Please don't tell me David Murphy changed his mind?

[DaveW]

And walking guys, and giving up home runs.....

Hence why I said something.

[DaveW]

 

First four starts of career.

 

Jose Berrios: 15.0 IP, 12 BB, 20 SO, 10.20 ERA

 

Trevor May: 14.1 IP, 13 BB, 7 SO, 8.79 ERA

 

Kyle Gibson: 22.0 IP,  9 BB, 11 SO, 6.45 ERA

 

Those latter two guys seemed to turn out okay once you let them get past the butterflies.

 

But hey, Pat Dean.

NTM that Berrios is a significantly better prospect then either of those guys and has a much better track record (minors)

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

NTM that Berrios is a significantly better prospect then either of those guys and has a much better track record (minors)

Yep, the most consistent and highly-regarded pitching prospect since Liriano.

 

He deserved more than four starts. Maybe six, seven, whatever... But more than four.

 

It was bad enough when the Twins did it to Meyer but now it's ridiculous.

[curt1965]

I think the "real" reason they sent Berrios down is that they expect Hughes to get shelled tonight, and need Rogers to go multiple innings like Dean did last night.

[DaveW]

 

I think the "real" reason they sent Berrios down is that they expect Hughes to get shelled tonight, and need Rogers to go multiple innings like Dean did last night.

Seems like a terrible reason to send down Berrios. If they were that concerned they could just send someone else down.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Or maybe the pressure comes from seeing the traveling secretary sitting in the dugout with travel vouchers to Rochester in hand!

Or maybe totally not.  The fear of demotion is real; it's not artificially imposed by the club.  The Twins aren't rooting against Berrios (which is the implication of your post), and given his early call-up, they obviously believe in him, and wanted him to succeed.    

[PseudoSABR]

 

And how best to get past that?  With more time in Rochester?  Or maybe trying to calm him down and set realistic expectations at the big league level?

I addressed this in my post (the parts that you cropped out). So you think just throwing him out there over and over is the way to do it? The problem wasn't the lack of realistic expectations, the problem is that Berrios pitched horribly.  Well below replacement level or what ever reasonable expectation one could have.  

 

It's not that Berrios if failing to show poise or to finish people off -- given his total lack of control -- there's probably a mechanical issue.  If all Berrios needed to succeed was to calm down, I might agree with you, but I don't think that's all he needs.  He needs to work on his mechanics without regard to his own or the team's success or failure, that task is much easier to accomplish in AAA for the countless reasons people have listed above. 

[Thrylos]

 

First four starts of career.

 

Jose Berrios: 15.0 IP, 12 BB, 20 SO, 10.20 ERA

 

Trevor May: 14.1 IP, 13 BB, 7 SO, 8.79 ERA

 

Kyle Gibson: 22.0 IP,  9 BB, 11 SO, 6.45 ERA

 

Those latter two guys seemed to turn out okay once you let them get past the butterflies.

 

But hey, Pat Dean.

 

Here is an age appropriate comparison:

 

Johan Santana, first 5 starts:

22 IP,  13 BB, 13 K, 9.82 ERA (age 21)

 

[nicksaviking]

 

Please don't tell me David Murphy changed his mind?

 

Hard to tell.

 

This just in: Every ballplayer on the Red Wings roster has retired in unison. Reports are unclear if it is due David Murphy's hypnotic suggestion to follow his lead or the players fear that they may be depromoted to Minnesota.