Molitor may tinker with bullpen usage

[gunnarthor]

http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/296823611.html

 

Molitor is thinking of making guys get more than 3 outs and using Perkins in non-save situations.  Maybe he can become a "firefighter" instead of a closer.

 

"The idea, he said, is more flexibility, more ways to react as situations come up. Molitor doesn’t know yet how he will use the bullpen once the season begins, and he figures that a lot of games might indeed fall into an inning-at-a-time pattern. But he wants his relievers to be ready for more than three outs. “Yesterday we said, ‘OK, get through an inning and then get two more outs for us,’ ” he said. “We’re trying to get those guys to throw closer to 30 pitches in their outings now,” far more than most throw in an inning.

 

[Pitching coach] Allen supports that notion, “because if you pitch one inning consistently, you begin to think of yourself as a three-out guy. We’d like to get a little bit more distance out of the guys, instead of a one-and-done habit.”"

[Thegrin]

Having relief pitchers therow more than one inning is a good way to limit the bullpen ti 7 arms.  This would be different from the Gardy/Andy approach and it could be a good one.  I always felt that the way Gardy/Andy used the bullpen was to disquise the weaknesses of his pitchers and limit the damage they could do. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

Yay!

 

Yay!

 

YAY, DAMN IT.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I always felt that the way Gardy/Andy used the bullpen was to disquise the weaknesses of his pitchers and limit the damage they could do. 

I always felt the way Gardy used his bullpen was because that's how everybody else did it, which drove me up the wall.

 

I thought Gardy was a decent manager but IMO, his biggest weakness was critical thinking and challenging the baseball establishment. All too often, it felt like a decision was made because "that's just how we've always done it", which is one of my personal pet peeves in life. That's not an answer that will ever fly with me.

[Willihammer]

"Play to tie at home, to win on the road."

 

There were way too many stretches under Gardy where Perk sat for 5+ games due to no save situation presenting itself. Close games, many of them. Winnable games.

[Kwak]

When I read the article I thought, "About Time!". Baseball should not attempt to be a chess match betwen managers. I cringe every time I read "...baseball should expand rosters to 27...".  MLB has a staed policy of speeding-up the game--Great! One excellent way is to reduce the number of piching changes. o! I don't mean by rule, but by typical practice. Relief pitchers should pitch longer (when effective). Specialists slow the game down. A "closer" is a specialist--and having one of them is OK. But more is gagging. An 8th inning guy, a 7th inning guy, a LOOGY, a long-guy, plus "mop-up guy".  Yikes! Too Much!  Thirteen position players and 12 pitchers is too constraining. 14 and 11 is OK, 15 and 10 is even better. 

 

Reading the refereced article clearly illustrates that replacing Gardenhire and his baseball crutches was the right decision.

[Mike Frasier Law]

I've always been persuaded by the argument that you should use your best bullpen arm in the highest leverage situation. The strongest argument I've heard against it is that it messes with the pitchers' heads: they want to know what to expect and being thrown into a different situation messes with their confidence.

 

I'm so happy to hear that Molitor went to Perkins to ask how he felt. First, it shows he is seriously considering it. Second, now Molitor knows Perkins will pitch whenever Molitor asks and understands it's about winning games, not collecting saves.

 

Man, I hope Molitor actually does this. I think it's one strategic advantage the Twins could have over most other teams, and we need every one we can get.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I'm fine with 12 pitchers on the roster. I'd prefer a game with 11 per roster but 12 isn't horrible. Baseball simply isn't going to return to 10 pitcher rosters and I'm okay with that.

 

But you're right, specialization is a problem and whatever MLB can do to avoid over-specialization (short of rule changes), I'm on board with that. Roster expansion would only exacerbate the problem.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I've always been persuaded by the argument that you should use your best bullpen arm in the highest leverage situation. The strongest argument I've heard against it is that it messes with the pitchers' heads: they want to know what to expect and being thrown into a different situation messes with their confidence.

Same here. I don't even know if it will work (the latter part of your paragraph) but because nobody has given it a legitimate chance over the course of the season, we simply don't know if it's a good or bad idea.

 

The Twins' expectations for 2015 are low. It's a good time to think outside conventional baseball wisdom and give it a shot. What's the worse that can happen? The Twins lose 2-3 more games in 2015?

[ashbury]

 

Molitor is thinking of making guys get more than 3 outs

Could be wise planning, if the outfield defense is as dreadful as some are predicting.

[gunnarthor]

 

I always felt the way Gardy used his bullpen was because that's how everybody else did it, which drove me up the wall.

 

I thought Gardy was a decent manager but IMO, his biggest weakness was critical thinking and challenging the baseball establishment. All too often, it felt like a decision was made because "that's just how we've always done it", which is one of my personal pet peeves in life. That's not an answer that will ever fly with me.

 

I do agree that he tended to use the closer only in save situations but that might not be as telling.  Gardy was pretty good about not necessarily having his best pitcher be his closer - Everyday Eddie certainly wasn't and there's a good argument that while Nathan's numbers were fantastic, some of the other pitchers he used in higher leverage situations were actually the better pitchers.  Gardy sure believed in the LOOGY, which wasn't always conventional usage.  And those early Twins teams under Gardy sure saw a lot more bullpen chess than these last few years teams ever did.  HBT or baseball analysts actually credited the 02-04 Twins 18 games above pyth W/L: on Gardy's bullpen usage.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I think there's something to be said for overall health too. I have to think that getting up and sitting down and warming up to throw 9 pitches against 2 hitters is not only wasting an arm over the course of the season, but adding additional injury risk because that guy doesn't get the next day off to recover... not to mention that if the previous reliever got the job done well in the previous inning, why not let him back out? At least then he gets some recovery time...

[Mike Sixel]

If he does this, I will give him an A on his report card!

[Willihammer]

I think there's something to be said for overall health too. I have to think that getting up and sitting down and warming up to throw 9 pitches against 2 hitters is not only wasting an arm over the course of the season, but adding additional injury risk because that guy doesn't get the next day off to recover... not to mention that if the previous reliever got the job done well in the previous inning, why not let him back out? At least then he gets some recovery time...

I suspect that's the motivating factor. It seems like Gardy often started the year with a 12 man bullpen and ended the year with 13 guys who were running on fumes. I wonder if this is part of a larger plans to use bench players in stricter platoons or in more prominent roles somehow by keeping to a 12 man staff (by keeping them rested).

[Mike Sixel]

Don't want your RP to run out of gas........use young guys you can send back and forth between AAA is one option. Another is to have good SP. I like both options, frankly.

[gunnarthor]

In the article, Molitor also mentioned that he liked Boyer and Hamberger.  I can't believe those two would make the team out of ST?

[Dantes929]

Looks like it is pretty unanimous.     I think Gardy did a pretty good job with the pen when he had the tools though I still thought it was better for a guy that cruised through one inning to get the next inning also rather than risk the next guy having an off day and having to bring in a 3rd guy.   I also don't think Perkins should be just the 9th inning guy.  We have discussed it before but if the other team has their best hitters up in the 8th and at least 2 of them are lefties it makes a lot more sense to use Perkins at that point than saving him for the 9th.

[brvama]

I am encouraged by this thinking also. Beside the positives already cited, it should help keep the RP focused on the game. No more of this " not my turn, it's only the 7th" thinking. IMO that should create a bit of adrenaline of anticipation, which could help performance.

[Oxtung]

While the excitement in this thread might be warranted in the long run, this article talks only about using Perk in one specific non-save high leverage situation. Now this might just be the first step in a change of philosophy, but there is clearly skepticism in the organization of an overall change in approach.

 

Ryan is quoted as being against using Perkins in other situations and it is stated that Molitor agrees. So long term perhaps this is the first step but right now it is just that. One step.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I always felt the way Gardy used his bullpen was because that's how everybody else did it, which drove me up the wall.

 

I thought Gardy was a decent manager but IMO, his biggest weakness was critical thinking and challenging the baseball establishment. All too often, it felt like a decision was made because "that's just how we've always done it", which is one of my personal pet peeves in life. That's not an answer that will ever fly with me.

You may be right on a larger point with Gardy, but in regards to the bullpen, the Twins really got it done from 2002-2010.  (After that, they failed everywhere, of course!)

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Ryan is quoted as being against using Perkins in other situations and it is stated that Molitor agrees. So long term perhaps this is the first step but right now it is just that. One step.

I remember an article (from last year?) where Perkins stated that he liked the more regimented bullpen.  So I don't expect any drastic changes, although getting 2 innings out of a hot hand is good change.

 

(I remember the article because I criticized the implications of its premise -- just because a player thinks they are more comfortable doesn't mean it affects their performance.  Assuming you give them adequate time to warm up, they will probably adapt to the new circumstances just fine.  Perk can make his nightly mid game bathroom trip an inning earlier. )

[Kwak]

 

I remember an article (from last year?) where Perkins stated that he liked the more regimented bullpen.  So I don't expect any drastic changes, although getting 2 innings out of a hot hand is good change.

 

(I remember the article because I criticized the implications of its premise -- just because a player thinks they are more comfortable doesn't mean it affects their performance.  Assuming you give them adequate time to warm up, they will probably adapt to the new circumstances just fine.  Perk can make his nightly mid game bathroom trip an inning earlier. )

Considering Perkins has stated that he wants to stay in Minnesota and segue into a front office career, I hardly think he would ever publicly disagree with company policy.

[Brock Beauchamp]

You may be right on a larger point with Gardy, but in regards to the bullpen, the Twins really got it done from 2002-2010. (After that, they failed everywhere, of course!)

Absolutely. I liked Gardy overall and thought he did quite a bit right... But the wrong bits really got under my skin once the Twins started losing and he refused to change.

[Lonestar]

, On being 7-for-7 in save opportunities: “Do I particularly agree with closers in baseball? That’s a tough question that I ask myself. But it’s my job, and when I go out there to do that job, saves are the most important thing to me. If I throw a quality inning, that’s the result I should get.”

 

Glen Perkins in fangraphs interview

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/qa-glen-perkins-a-twin-his-fip-and-math/

[Boom Boom]

The regimented Gardenhire bullpen was supposed to give everyone a comfortable role, but in practice it only made roles for the closer and LOOGY.

 

Whoever was the designated "8th inning guy" was also the guy usually asked to come in to trouble spots with runners on. There's no reason the closer can't share that load.

[mikelink45]

That could be the end of Duensing career.

[USAFChief]

I've always been persuaded by the argument that you should use your best bullpen arm in the highest leverage situation. The strongest argument I've heard against it is that it messes with the pitchers' heads: they want to know what to expect and being thrown into a different situation messes with their confidence.

 

I'm so happy to hear that Molitor went to Perkins to ask how he felt. First, it shows he is seriously considering it. Second, now Molitor knows Perkins will pitch whenever Molitor asks and understands it's about winning games, not collecting saves.

 

Man, I hope Molitor actually does this. I think it's one strategic advantage the Twins could have over most other teams, and we need every one we can get.

I think the strongest argument against "use your best reliever in the highest leverage situation" isn't comfort.

 

Rather, it's difficult to have your best reliever ready for the highest leverage situation. How would a manager do that? Unless he can predict the results of the next three hitters, he can't know when the highest leverage situation will occur.

 

I am all for longer outings by relievers. I am all for using your best reliever in situations other than "9th inning up 3 or less."

 

But I think it's asking a lot of a manager to always have his best reliever ready for the perfect moment. He'd have to be warmed and ready from the 6th inning on, every close game.

[jay]

Rather, it's difficult to have your best reliever ready for the highest leverage situation. How would a manager do that? Unless he can predict the results of the next three hitters, he can't know when the highest leverage situation will occur.

For mid-inning changes, it can definitely be a challenge and almost becomes a bit of a 'great in theory' type idea in some situations. However, I do think there are others where it can be applied that aren't terribly common in today's game.

 

If it's a starter tiring in the 7th of a one-run game for example, you should be able to get your best (or maybe even 2nd best) guy ready in time to get out of that jam instead of just using your "7th inning guy". You have to get someone ready either way and that's likely to be one of the highest leverage points in the game.

 

Also, there should definitely be room between innings to consider the upcoming lineup. I think someone earlier mentioned a scenario like a lefty heavy middle of the lineup coming up in the 8th with a small lead. Absolutely it makes sense to use a guy like Perk there rather than wait for the 9th to face the 7-8-9 righties just so he can get the save.

[USAFChief]

For mid-inning changes, it can definitely be a challenge and almost becomes a bit of a 'great in theory' type idea in some situations. However, I do think there are others where it can be applied that aren't terribly common in today's game.

If it's a starter tiring in the 7th of a one-run game for example, you should be able to get your best (or maybe even 2nd best) guy ready in time to get out of that jam instead of just using your "7th inning guy". You have to get someone ready either way and that's likely to be one of the highest leverage points in the game.

Also, there should definitely be room between innings to consider the upcoming lineup. I think someone earlier mentioned a scenario like a lefty heavy middle of the lineup coming up in the 8th with a small lead. Absolutely it makes sense to use a guy like Perk there rather than wait for the 9th to face the 7-8-9 righties just so he can get the save.

Concur on all points, particularly the last one.

[nicksaviking]

The Twins are in the perfect situation to try this and bully to Molitor for recognizing it. Every other bullpen seems to be, or is trying to be made up of max effort fireballers. The Twins have (notoriously) been late to the velocity party with a pen mostly full of low 90's cast offs and swingmen.

 

Teams with max effort slingers probably can't ask their guys to consistently throw 30 pitches. About time someone in this organization thought of a way to turn a deficiency into a unique opportunity.