Souhan: Meyer should be #5 starter

[gunnarthor]

http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/295560791.html

 

I pretty much agree with all this and am getting a bit more on-board with Pelfrey being a good bullpen arm (sorta like Perkins switch).  

 

Souhan pushes pretty hard for Meyer - "If Meyer is the fifth starter and pitches well, that would allow Pelfrey to become a power arm in the bullpen, and Millone, Stauffer and May to either bolster the bullpen or wait for the inevitable call-up from Class AAA Rochester.  If Meyer winds up in the bullpen, the Twins will have traded Span for low value. If Meyer winds up at Class AAA, it will be a signal that, at 25, he is a work in progress instead of an impact player."  Not a lot of wiggle room there and I pretty much agree with it.  The team can't keep him in AAA just to keep Milone happy.

 

I'm sure others will read more into Ryan's comments than I do -

 

“One of them is Tommy Milone. He’s got a lot more experience than Alex Meyer. He’s got somewhat close to the same stuff. He’s won 13 games in the big leagues. He isn’t going to want to hear that … stuff.

“There are guys competing out there who want to send Alex Meyer back to the minors. Alex better realize he has to earn this thing. Which is a good position for us to be in.

“Stauffer is another guy. He had a good year in San Diego about three years ago. He’s no slouch.”

 

The Stauffer line reads like such a reach that I just think that's Ryan just not wanting to say something a month out and he wants to see Meyer win the job.  

[Monkeypaws]

I think it's time to see what he can do as well. 

[Mike Sixel]

Milone has similar stuff to Meyer? Someone said that out loud and didn't laugh?

[diehardtwinsfan]

I think I'd rather have May starting personally. He's more ready than Meyer (at least as of last season). Real issue to me is what to do if May is doing well come June 1 and Meyer is too. Someone has to move, and it's probably going to need to be one of the expensive contracts we signed. Will the Twins DFA someone like Nolasco if he's not performing, or will they consider trading a guy like Gibson to make room for Meyer?

[Brock Beauchamp]

I think I'd rather have May starting personally. He's more ready than Meyer (at least as of last season). Real issue to me is what to do if May is doing well come June 1 and Meyer is too. Someone has to move, and it's probably going to need to be one of the expensive contracts we signed. Will the Twins DFA someone like Nolasco if he's not performing, or will they consider trading a guy like Gibson to make room for Meyer?

It's kind of a pipe dream but I'm hoping that Nolasco pitches well enough that the Twins can trade him. That's the best case scenario, in my opinion.

[markos]

 

I'm sure others will read more into Ryan's comments than I do -

 

“One of them is Tommy Milone. He’s got a lot more experience than Alex Meyer. He’s got somewhat close to the same stuff. He’s won 13 games in the big leagues. He isn’t going to want to hear that … stuff.

“There are guys competing out there who want to send Alex Meyer back to the minors. Alex better realize he has to earn this thing. Which is a good position for us to be in.

“Stauffer is another guy. He had a good year in San Diego about three years ago. He’s no slouch.”

 

I try to ignore Ryan's public comments as much as possible. His mantra is always the same: say praise and mute criticism for proven veterans, while doing the exact opposite for youngsters. I'm sure that has earned him a fair amount of respect and loyalty from players (both within the organization and ... um ... without?), but it certainly doesn't provide any insight into him actual thoughts and expectations about players. And inevitably, he ends up saying things that are clearly crazy, such as this gem about Milone and Meyer having "somewhat close to the same stuff." Anyway, I've always thought his public statements are more politicking than actual insight, so I'm not too concerned about this clearly crazy comparison.

[HitInAPinch]

From what I've seen 25 is the make or break line for minor leaguers.  Both May and Meyer are there.  The problem goes back to Terry Ryan signing middle of the road [AT BEST] starters and are often coming off injuries.  Nice in theory to do that, but he signs them to more than a 1 year make-or-break contract.  And in some cases [Pelfry] he extends them.  Based on his KC numbers, Ervin Santana at least gives me a little hope.

[gunnarthor]

I think I'd rather have May starting personally. He's more ready than Meyer (at least as of last season). Real issue to me is what to do if May is doing well come June 1 and Meyer is too. Someone has to move, and it's probably going to need to be one of the expensive contracts we signed. Will the Twins DFA someone like Nolasco if he's not performing, or will they consider trading a guy like Gibson to make room for Meyer?

I think Meyer gets the #5 spot out of ST.  If Nolasco is struggling after 6-8 starts but Gibson, Hughes, Meyer and Santana are pitching well, then the Twins would probably be ok record-wise so Nolasco would have a short rope and May (or Milone) would get the spot.  The concern would be if the #5 starter and Nolasco (or a different starter) were both struggling.  It would be hard to trade Nolasco in that case and it would be harder to remove him from the rotation.

[HitInAPinch]

I think I'd rather have May starting personally. He's more ready than Meyer (at least as of last season). Real issue to me is what to do if May is doing well come June 1 and Meyer is too. Someone has to move, and it's probably going to need to be one of the expensive contracts we signed. Will the Twins DFA someone like Nolasco if he's not performing, or will they consider trading a guy like Gibson to make room for Meyer?

I'm of the mind that you don't know a players value until you put them on the wavier wire and see how the rest of MLB feels about them.  Here's what we know:  May improved enough last year and Milone has the track record to say they are MLB quality.  I'd put Meyer in the 5 spot as an audition.  I'd have Nolasco on a short leash.  My target mid-season rotation would be:

 

Hughes

Meyer

Milone

May

Gibson [because Santana got traded ]

 

I kinda like the balance.... 

[Boom Boom]

Maybe they do have similar stuff, like Milone and Meyer both own the same Tommy Bahama shirt, or employ the same brand of dish detergent.

[tobi0040]

I try to ignore Ryan's public comments as much as possible. His mantra is always the same: say praise and mute criticism for proven veterans, while doing the exact opposite for youngsters. I'm sure that has earned him a fair amount of respect and loyalty from players (both within the organization and ... um ... without?), but it certainly doesn't provide any insight into him actual thoughts and expectations about players. And inevitably, he ends up saying things that are clearly crazy, such as this gem about Milone and Meyer having "somewhat close to the same stuff." Anyway, I've always thought his public statements are more politicking than actual insight, so I'm not too concerned about this clearly crazy comparison.

 

Completely agree.  If Ryan had any thoughts of these two being similar or Torii being able to fill in CF, he would not have his job.

[GoGonzoJournal]

Will the Twins DFA someone like Nolasco if he's not performing, or will they consider trading a guy like Gibson to make room for Meyer?

I'd say Gibson is more likely to be traded than the Twins releasing Nolasco. If Nolasco comes back and pitches well, though, he'll have some trade value. Hughes and Santana look untouchable.

[Kwak]

"I hope (Nolasco, Santana, any name here) [do] well, so we can [trade] him."  WHAT?!  Teams don't sign free agents with the hopes of trading them if they play well, they sign them in expectation that they will win!

 

This rebuild was [done] half-[heartedly] because:  1) the FO initially refused to believe they were in rebuild mode;  2)  was more interested in cutting payroll than in putting a winning team on the field;  3) saw their fan base become irate because season tickets become nearly worthless as the losing builds; and 4)  mollified management (field and  front office) with "veterans" in order to win a (very) few more games immediately.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I sense maybe a little sarcasm there...I agree that this has been more of a poor patching job than a rebuild and a rebuild woulda been better. I agree with Souhan and all the above posts in this thread and am back to not liking the E. Santana signing. Would be nice to have more than one rotation spot open, because both May and Meyer should have a claim on it.

[dxpavelka]

I'm of the mind that you don't know a players value until you put them on the wavier wire and see how the rest of MLB feels about them.  Here's what we know:  May improved enough last year and Milone has the track record to say they are MLB quality.  I'd put Meyer in the 5 spot as an audition.  I'd have Nolasco on a short leash.  My target mid-season rotation would be:

 

Hughes

Meyer

Milone

May

Gibson [because Santana got traded ]

 

I kinda like the balance.... 

Of course thinking that they would trade Santana a half season or less into a 4 year deal kind of calls your credibility into question.

[Rosterman]

Quite frankly, no rookie who wants to make the Twins will get the job just because they are a "Top Prospect." They have to earn the job.

 

And in some ways, those words are right. If they don't step up and power thru to the best, someone else IS in the wings to take their place, if not this year, next year.

 

And if a Rookie thinks they can work into a full-time job, think again. If Ryan and Co. have to pick between someone almost ready, and someone else who wants the job and is ready and pitching their heart out to earn and keep a job (i.e. Pelfrey, Stauffer, Milone), then that person will be getting the job.

 

It may be a fault of the Twins, maybe it isn't (see Hicks) that they spend too much time in development, or they don't take a chance unless it appears to be a sure thing, or they have no where else to turn (i.e. see Hicks).

 

You want a job in baseball...you show you want it, you listen to keep it, you hope you make it to year four and arbitration, still play by the rules and collect a big salary, and if you can keep it up for 7 years, you are a free agent and set!

[jimmer]

Of course thinking that they would trade Santana a half season or less into a 4 year deal kind of calls your credibility into question.

Perhaps you should show where in his post that has him saying he thinks the Twins would actually do that.

 

I don't agree with his preferred mid-season rotation, I'd rather they try and trade Milone and obviously keep Santana, but he didn't say he thought the Twins would actually consider trading Santana this year.

[nicksaviking]

“You’re ahead of yourself,” Ryan said. “There are people who are going to argue with you. There are other people out there who are going to compete for that job and believe they’re ahead of Alex Meyer, because of their track record and experience.

“One of them is Tommy Milone. He’s got a lot more experience than Alex Meyer. He’s got somewhat close to the same stuff. He’s won 13 games in the big leagues. He isn’t going to want to hear that … stuff.

“There are guys competing out there who want to send Alex Meyer back to the minors. Alex better realize he has to earn this thing. Which is a good position for us to be in.

 

 

Well what did everyone think would happen when a bunch of vets who aren't or shouldn't be part of the future were brought into what clearly called for a rebuild situation?

 

So theoretically, if Meyer never out "earns" the likes of Stauffer, Millone Pelfrey and who ever is their equivalent in 2016, 2017, 2018 etc, he should never get a shot at the bigs.  Good grief. 

 

I don't want to try to imagine what the future of the organization is going to look like if the team insists on pandering to journeymen AAAA pitchers at the expense of development for guys like Meyer.

[gunnarthor]

Well what did everyone think would happen when a bunch of vets who aren't or shouldn't be part of the future were brought into what clearly called for a rebuild situation?

 

So theoretically, if Meyer never out "earns" the likes of Stauffer, Millone Pelfre and who ever is there equivalent in 2016, 2017, 2018 etc, he should never get a shot at the bigs.  Good grief.

See, I think this is a pretty good example of why people shouldn't overly read into these things.  We had the same hair pulling last year when Gibson still had options while Worley, Deduno and Albers didn't (or was it Diamond, can't remember).  In any event, everyone was pretty sure the rookie would have to stay in the minors while Ryan said whoever earns the spot will get it.  

 

The other thing to remember is that no pitching rotation is just 5 arms.  Last year, the Twins had 7 starters make 8 or more starts, the year before it was 10.  Depth among starting pitchers is a good thing.  I'd rather have Pelfrey, Milone and May in the wings than De Vries, Pino and Deduno.

[nicksaviking]

See, I think this is a pretty good example of why people shouldn't overly read into these things.  We had the same hair pulling last year when Gibson still had options while Worley, Deduno and Albers didn't (or was it Diamond, can't remember).  In any event, everyone was pretty sure the rookie would have to stay in the minors while Ryan said whoever earns the spot will get it.  

 

The other thing to remember is that no pitching rotation is just 5 arms.  Last year, the Twins had 7 starters make 8 or more starts, the year before it was 10.  Depth among starting pitchers is a good thing.  I'd rather have Pelfrey, Milone and May in the wings than De Vries, Pino and Deduno.

 

You're right, Ryan could very well intend for Meyer to get the job.  His comments sounded pretty defensive, though there may be room for interpretation considering Souhan loves to stir things up.

 

I don't like the "earned" philosophy though.  Rookies are rarely going to show as much polish as MLB veterans no matter how lackluster the vets are.  At some point you have to throw the prospects off the diving board into the deep end of the pool to see if they can swim, even if some non-essential vets get their feelings hurt because he budged.

[ScrapTheNickname]

9.6 starters per MLB team in 2014. 289 total.

[gunnarthor]

 

I don't like the "earned" philosophy though.  Rookies are rarely going to show as much polish as MLB veterans no matter how lackluster the vets are.  At some point you have to throw the prospects off the diving board into the deep end of the pool to see if they can swim, even if some non-essential vets get their feelings hurt because he budged.

I'm not really sure this is a problem for Ryan as much as people think it is.  He traded away AJ and Dougie baseball to make way for Mauer and Morneau.  Span and Revere for Hicks (results not as good).  A lot of Gardy's early teams were pretty young, actually.  Ryan changed the nucleus of the 02-04 Twins pretty seamlessly while letting go of guys like Jones, Everyday Eddie, Koskie, Milton etc.  My guess if you look over Ryan's teams you'll see that most of the important guys were younger than you think when they came up.  

 

I also think we tend to over worry about vets blocking guys.  Every team has some vets signed, not just the Twins.  Rangers had some insanely well regarded MI prospects coming up but still extended both Adrus and Kinsler to huge long term contracts.  Phillies famously signed Thome instead of letting Ryan Howard make the majors.  Ryan certainly haven't done anything like that.

[mikelink45]

I am in complete agreement.  If we are to believe the minor league ratings it is time to act on them.  The price we paid for Stauffer and Milone should tell us that their upside is not as great as what we have been told about Meyer. 

[scottz]

The nonsense about Milone and Meyer having about the same stuff is what you'd say to the best athlete in the high school because he's a freshman, because there is also a decent player who happens to be a senior and you don't want the freshman to assume he's just going to walk in and own the place.

 

As long as Meyer keeps his head down, does his work and produces, that quote makes me think that Souhan hit the mark exactly as Ryan is thinking and Ryan couldn't just agree. I had been thinking the spot was going to go to May. I'm changing my vote to Meyer.

[jimmer]

I'd like it to be Hughes, Santana, Gibson, May, Meyer.  Won't happen, but I'd like it.  I'd think I'd enjoy watching that rotation, even knowing there would be growing pains.  

 

Nolasco, Milone and Pelfrey.  I have little interest in watching them.

[HitInAPinch]

Of course thinking that they would trade Santana a half season or less into a 4 year deal kind of calls your credibility into question.

 

My credibility?  Yeah, like there's never been a playoff team needing to add another SP for the run up to the playoffs.....

[laloesch]

I'd like it to be Hughes, Santana, Gibson, May, Meyer.  Won't happen, but I'd like it.  I'd think I'd enjoy watching that rotation, even knowing there would be growing pains.  

 

Nolasco, Milone and Pelfrey.  I have little interest in watching them.

 

This is what really needs to happen.  Sooner rather then later.  Remember too that Berrios is not too far behind either.  May and Meyer both 25 years old.  Nolasco, Pelfrey, Milone all should go via trades or DFA.

[Halsey Hall]

I'd like it to be Hughes, Santana, Gibson, May, Meyer.  Won't happen, but I'd like it.  I'd think I'd enjoy watching that rotation, even knowing there would be growing pains.  

 

Nolasco, Milone and Pelfrey.  I have little interest in watching them.

I really wouldn't mind seeing that either.  Nolasco and Milone do nothing for me.  I give Pelfrey value though. 

[ashbury]

My reaction to the photo of Meyer in the article is that the editors got ahold of software that pretends to age someone to age 50 or so.

[ashbury]

Completely agree.  If Ryan had any thoughts of these two being similar or Torii being able to fill in CF, he would not have his job.

I agree that that quote should be ignored. I'm less sure about ignoring, "Alex better realize he has to earn this thing." Makes me wonder if Meyer has somehow rubbed his bosses the wrong way, with an unearned sense of entitlement or whatever.