Red Sox sign Moncada

[nicksaviking]

Oh, I'm already there.

 

Yes, trying to get everyone to choose a side in the Red Sox/Yankee rivalry was simply well crafted hype by ESPN in the late 1990's to drum up business seeing as those team's make up their preferred geographical coverage.

 

There were plenty of us who chose to still cheer against both big pocketed teams.

[nicksaviking]

No, not it's not.  If your life is truly altered by something the Red Sox/Yankees/Tigers/Packers/Badgers do, you need to seek professional help.  True, honest hatred has no place in sports whatsoever.  I'll cheer any day of the week against the Badgers playing well, but that doesn't mean I ever cheer for any player on their team to be injured or actually hate the team.  I'm encouraged at the same time that you're saddened to hear that there's a poster who can separate his dislike of seeing another team beat his own team to appreciation for the process that team employs to achieve their victories.

 

I really doubt he cheers for any player on a team he doesn't like to get injured.  Hate is a pretty abstract word these days.  I'm guessing for most people, "hating" a particular team is more inline with hating brocolli than say, hating Adolf Hitler.  Plenty of hyperbole gets tossed around when talking about sports, the word 'hate' probably is among the instances.

 

Except for the Packers, who I believe have been charged with numerous war crimes.

[brvama]

Color me - MEH. Good for Boston and Moncado. But the fact is he is still not in the Majors and won't be before 2016. We will still have to see if he can adjust to a higher level of baseball and atheletic here. Even Buxton isn't a sure thing. Both are promising, but still prospects. And like someone mentioned, there is a downside to this signing.

 

Realistically I can't fault how any of the teams are using or going after big revenue. Philosophically, I worry that it is approaching the ridiculous. Something will have to change, but I jsut hope it is good for all of baseball, including the minor league players and the fans. It's getting to the point that all pro sports are filled with lottery winners (even at the end of the bench), sometimes many times over.

[Willihammer]

Dave Cameron's take on this: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/why-63-million-for-yoan-moncada-makes-sense/

That seems reasonable. Conservative, even, if Moncada is the talent eveyone says he is. I thought the bidding would be more competitive seeing as the rules will probably change in the next CBA.

[Otto von Ballpark]

There is a downside, as I understand it, to what Boston did (and a few other big market teams). They are not allowed to sign any high end international talent next year since they went so far over their pool this year. So a few big names won't be grabbed by them.

interestingly Boston's bonus pool was only 1.8 million dollars anyway, compared to 5+ mil for the worst teams. So these new penalties probably won't affect them too adversely.

[bird]

What should the owners do with the money, birdwatcher?

Lower ticket prices for starters. How much money is enough? Work to reign in this bubble of insanity for the long-term interests of everyone, including, eventually, their own enterprises. 

 

Professional sports, including major college sports, is a pervasive system of greed at its worst. Unfortunately, its part of the larger system of rampant consumption that inflicts our culture. Just more obscene than a lot of the other stuff. There are plenty of villains, myself included. Fans who clamor for teams to spend on players, who reward the advertisers with their own spending, who elect officials who will spend even more for the rather select enjoyment of the financially elite, are a big part of the problem, so sorry, I just can't say "good for Boston" or "good for this 22-year old" who apparently "deserves" it. Sorry, it's just something that deeply saddens me when I think about all the suffering out there.

 

We won't, but I just wish we'd all pause, step back, and be part of a voice calling for things to be toned down and pared back a bit over time.   

[jimmer]

Honestly, hating teams is a big part of sports.  It actually makes me sad knowing that you don't hate Boston or NY.  

 

You do hate the Packers, though, right?

I strongly dislike the White Sox. I also strongly dislike the Yankees, but for other reasons besides the money thing. 

 

And I have no feelings about the Packers either way.  I'm not a Vikings fan.

[biggentleben]

I strongly dislike the White Sox. I also strongly dislike the Yankees, but for other reasons besides the money thing. 

 

And I have no feelings about the Packers either way.  I'm not a Vikings fan.

 

My baby brother showed me a link a couple years ago of cross-fandom with the Packers.  The Twins were among the top 5 baseball teams that Packer fans rooted for.  The other four were Brewers, Red Sox, Yankees, and Braves (which makes sense with the Milwaukee connection).

[TheLeviathan]

I don't dislike the Red Sox for this, I dislike the system that allows it to happen.  I thoroughly dislike the Red Sox for a host of other reasons though.

[Jeremy Nygaard]

My baby brother showed me a link a couple years ago of cross-fandom with the Packers.  The Twins were among the top 5 baseball teams that Packer fans rooted for.  The other four were Brewers, Red Sox, Yankees, and Braves (which makes sense with the Milwaukee connection).

 

Green Bay and Milwaukee must be marketed differently, cause the Packers were gettable in Western WI. The Brewers might as well have been in Alaska.

[ashbury]

Lower ticket prices for starters.  

Games in the big markets will be sold out instantly.    High demand games where you live, likewise.    StubHub Ticket King will arrange the arbitrage profits to the scalpers instead of the owners getting them, keeping a healthier cut for themselves of course.

[ashbury]

There is a downside, as I understand it, to what Boston did (and a few other big market teams).  They are not allowed to sign any high end international talent next year since they went so far over their pool this year.  So a few big names won't be grabbed by them.

Big revenue teams will alternate years as to who gets to sign the big talent.   The big-picture problem remains.

[nater79a]

Green Bay and Milwaukee must be marketed differently, cause the Packers were gettable in Western WI. The Brewers might as well have been in Alaska.

 

Probably helped that the Twins were the only major league team in the area for most of the 1960's. Established a lot of fans in western Wisconsin. Pilots didn't move to Milwaukee till 1970. Old habits die hard...

[big dog]

I really doubt he cheers for any player on a team he doesn't like to get injured.  Hate is a pretty abstract word these days.  I'm guessing for most people, "hating" a particular team is more inline with hating brocolli than say, hating Adolf Hitler.  Plenty of hyperbole gets tossed around when talking about sports, the word 'hate' probably is among the instances.

 

Except for the Packers, who I believe have been charged with numerous war crimes.

The sweetest words

that ever have been:

White Sox lose,

Twins Win!

[gil4]

Except for the Packers, who I believe have been charged with numerous war crimes.

 

GUILTY!  Off with their heads!!!

[nicksaviking]

Games in the big markets will be sold out instantly. High demand games where you live, likewise. StubHub Ticket King will arrange the arbitrage profits to the scalpers instead of the owners getting them, keeping a healthier cut for themselves of course.

Well it would seem much easier for us to reclaim our money by becoming scalpels than it would be by becoming an owner of a MLB team as much as it kills my dreams to admit.

[glunn]

Lower ticket prices for starters. How much money is enough? Work to reign in this bubble of insanity for the long-term interests of everyone, including, eventually, their own enterprises. 

 

Professional sports, including major college sports, is a pervasive system of greed at its worst. Unfortunately, its part of the larger system of rampant consumption that inflicts our culture. Just more obscene than a lot of the other stuff. There are plenty of villains, myself included. Fans who clamor for teams to spend on players, who reward the advertisers with their own spending, who elect officials who will spend even more for the rather select enjoyment of the financially elite, are a big part of the problem, so sorry, I just can't say "good for Boston" or "good for this 22-year old" who apparently "deserves" it. Sorry, it's just something that deeply saddens me when I think about all the suffering out there.

 

We won't, but I just wish we'd all pause, step back, and be part of a voice calling for things to be toned down and pared back a bit over time.   

 

It seems to me that unless we can repeal capitalism, team owners will spend increasing amounts if they think that this will improve their profits.  Calling for things to be toned down seems unlikely to persuade the owners, who in some cases are signing huge TV contracts.

 

Assuming that the Red Sox are paying a 50% "tax" to the league and that the Twins will get their fair share, I see some silver lining in this cloud.

[bird]

It seems to me that unless we can repeal capitalism, team owners will spend increasing amounts if they think that this will improve their profits.  Calling for things to be toned down seems unlikely to persuade the owners, who in some cases are signing huge TV contracts.

 

Assuming that the Red Sox are paying a 50% "tax" to the league and that the Twins will get their fair share, I see some silver lining in this cloud.

Yeah, calling for any change is pointless at this stage of the frenzy, I agree.

[big dog]

Yeah, calling for any change is pointless at this stage of the frenzy, I agree.

Call me crazy, but if they can afford to spend $60 million on a 19-yr-old player who won't be in the majors for perhaps two years, they can afford to build their own *($&*# stadiums.

[nicksaviking]

Assuming that the Red Sox are paying a 50% "tax" to the league and that the Twins will get their fair share, I see some silver lining in this cloud.

 

Maybe this money is spread around differently, but I don't think the Twins are on the receiving end of the revenue sharing.

 

Of course a season averaging 12K fans a game may change that.

[Mike Sixel]

I agree that the law of unintended consequences would bite us in the rear if they dropped ticket prices.....but that is the first thought I have.....well, second thought. Whomever posted "pay for their own stadiums" was right on........

[kab21]

I really don't understand the why people are frustrated specifically by this.  The Twins could have signed Moncada instead of Ervin or done other things differently.  The Brewers were involved and there is no reason that the Twins couldn't have been.  Yes, the system (that has been evened out significantly recently) puts them at a disadvantage but the Twins aren't that poor.

 

In addition to that this loophole will almost certainly be closed in the next CBA since it's painfully obvious to everyone that they screwed up this particular part of the CBA (needed stiffer overage penalties).  But they have greatly improved the talent distribution in both the draft and int'l FA (Under 23) compared to the rules 5 years ago when big market teams could completely dominate the overslot and int'l FA categories. 

 

Moncada is of course a risk but his value is similar to Sano or Buxton.  All will probably need another year in the minors and are top 10 prospects in baseball.  If Sano or Buxton were on the open market they would probably get similar money.

[Linus]

I agree that the law of unintended consequences would bite us in the rear if they dropped ticket prices.....but that is the first thought I have.....well, second thought. Whomever posted "pay for their own stadiums" was right on........

Furious for $4 a pint........that would be a good start if they can't build their own stadiums.

[Mike Sixel]

Furious for $4 a pint........that would be a good start if they can't build their own stadiums.

 

I endorse this plan.....

[bird]

Furious for $4 a pint........that would be a good start if they can't build their own stadiums.

"Give them bread and circus."

[Otto von Ballpark]

There is a downside, as I understand it, to what Boston did (and a few other big market teams).  They are not allowed to sign any high end international talent next year since they went so far over their pool this year.  So a few big names won't be grabbed by them.

More thoughts on this:

 

The Red Sox were already over their pool limit before signing Moncada.  So they would have faced the same penalty whether they signed Moncada or not.

 

And the penalty doesn't reduce or eliminate their pool amount (estimated to be $3.5 mil in 2015), it simply limits them to $300k per player.  That can still get plenty of guys ranked not far outside of BA's top 30.  Cleveland signed 6 guys on the first signing day last summer without going over $300k for any one of them, as far as I could tell.  Boston (and the other teams facing penalties) will still be able to load up on guys in that range, no problem.

 

Furthermore, for trade purposes there are bonus "slots" and Boston will still be able to trade all of their slots to other teams, even above $300k.  I estimate Boston will have slots of $1.8 mil, $700k, and $450k next season that they can trade to teams not facing any signing penalties.

 

Also, for the top MLB teams by winning percentage, the bonus pool allotments are already quite small.  For example, the Angels likely have a $1.8 mil bonus pool for next year, which would barely be enough to get one Lewin Diaz (ranked #15 by BA).  They are already practically limited to maybe one top signing each year under that limit, and probably none in the top 10.  No wonder that it has generally been good MLB teams that are accepting this penalty (NYY, BOS, LAA, TBR, TEX when they were good -- only the Cubs have really been the exception so far).

[nytwinsfan]

More thoughts on this:

 

The Red Sox were already over their pool limit before signing Moncada.  So they would have faced the same penalty whether they signed Moncada or not.

 

And the penalty doesn't reduce or eliminate their pool amount (estimated to be $3.5 mil in 2015), it simply limits them to $300k per player.  That can still get plenty of guys ranked not far outside of BA's top 30.  Cleveland signed 6 guys on the first signing day last summer without going over $300k for any one of them, as far as I could tell.  Boston (and the other teams facing penalties) will still be able to load up on guys in that range, no problem.

 

Furthermore, for trade purposes there are bonus "slots" and Boston will still be able to trade all of their slots to other teams, even above $300k.  I estimate Boston will have slots of $1.8 mil, $700k, and $450k next season that they can trade to teams not facing any signing penalties.

 

Also, for the top MLB teams by winning percentage, the bonus pool allotments are already quite small.  For example, the Angels likely have a $1.8 mil bonus pool for next year, which would barely be enough to get one Lewin Diaz (ranked #15 by BA).  They are already practically limited to maybe one top signing each year under that limit, and probably none in the top 10.  No wonder that it has generally been good MLB teams that are accepting this penalty (NYY, BOS, LAA, TBR, TEX when they were good -- only the Cubs have really been the exception so far).

 

Excellent analysis. I'm hopeful the Twins will take a shot at Alvarez and go over their bonus allotment during the next international signing period.

[kab21]

Yes, it's baffling that MLB's analysts couldn't have seen that teams would do this.  Still it's better than the old system where there were no caps at all on int'l FA spending and it has all but set up an int'l draft (or real penalties for exceeding the cap) where the talent gets distributed more evenly.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I'll say what I've said before here. Everyone knew this would happen. It was done intentionally to force an international draft. They can say they tried and it didn't work.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I'll say what I've said before here. Everyone knew this would happen. It was done intentionally to force an international draft. They can say they tried and it didn't work.

Who did they have to convince?  Do the players care much about international amateur bonuses?