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  • Pump the Brakes On These Prospects


    Greggory Masterson

    We’re all excited to see what’s in store for these guys, but now’s not the time for the Twins to get cute with it.

    Image courtesy of Nathan Ray Seebeck-USA TODAY Sports

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    Pump the brakes on Brooks Lee. For that matter, the same applies to Austin Martin, Yunior Severino, Jair Camargo, Chris Williams, and DaShawn Keirsey. Lee is the third baseman of the future, hopefully. Martin, Severino, Camargo, Williams, and Keirsey will all likely appear in games for the Twins at some point during 2024, but we don’t need to put the cart before the horse.

    The Twins have a number of decisions to make with an already crowded infield, a questionable mix at first base, a backup catcher making $10 million in both 2024 and 2025, a hole in centerfield, and an unclear budget for making additions. Many of the aforementioned names could be written in as key contributors in those spots.

    However, none of those players are beating down the hatches. Lee has 60 games at AAA with a mediocre August and a solid September. Martin similarly has 59 games and one outstanding month in St. Paul. Severino and Keirsey have even less than that. Williams and Camargo are both in their mid-20s coming off great offensive years, but they still haven’t gotten a single plate appearance in MLB.

    None should be the answer to any question at the beginning of 2024. It would put the Twins in a very difficult spot. If Martin or Keirsey are your personal long-term answer in center field, you’re welcome to that. You might see Camargo as a long-term backup catcher, replacing Vazquez.

    Forcing that to happen in March is a problem.

    The recent success of rookies Royce Lewis, Edouard Julien, and Matt Wallner has been incredible, but it’s important not to expect that level of production to be the norm, even for prospects at the top of organizational rankings. It’s not normal. Their success was exceptional. They themselves may struggle to find the same level of success going forward.

    So often prospects, even those who are hyped and go on to have great careers, struggle in their early stints. Names like Torii Hunter or Michael Cuddyer come to mind, struggling for years to find their footings before becoming mainstays in the Twins lineup for a decade.

    Other prospects don’t manage to get their footing at all, such as more recent examples like Stephen Gonsalves, Alex Meyer, Oswaldo Arcia, or Joe Benson. It’s difficult to project success, even in players at the upper levels of the minor leagues.

    Both Jose Miranda and Trevor Larnach have shown flashes of being very good players, but they have also gone through extended stretches that cast a cloud over their long-term outlook—and both were Opening Day starter in 2023. If that’s not the organization showing a reliance on them, I’m not sure what is.

    Fortunately, Miranda and Larnach were able to be replaced by Lewis and Wallner, respectively, but it would be foolish to assume that that outcome was always a given. What if the team didn’t open the season with Lewis and Wallner in reserve as alternative options? What if they were going to sink or swim with Miranda and Larnach?

    They would have been in trouble. Likewise, starting 2024 with upper minors depth in key roles is asking for the same.

    The Twins clearly have a philosophy in this type of situation, and it’s probably the right one—they want depth. That’s exposed in the acquisitions of players like Michael A. Taylor, Joey Gallo, and Donovan Solano. Granted, not all of these types of acquisitions are beneficial, but that’s kind of the point.

    They want options.

    Do those options sometimes block our favorite prospects on the depth chart? Sure. But it also allows those prospects to be a short-term backup plan, protecting them and the team. Blocking prospects is the cost of bringing in big league depth.

    Beginning the year with some sort of big leaguer in those roles ensures better talent is in the organization. Those same big leaguers wouldn’t take a minor league deal to serve as a backup to the prospects. The decision is effectively between bringing in an MLB veteran and having a top prospect as a backup or having a top prospect with a minor league veteran as a backup plan.

    One of those plans has a better rate of success. It’s risky business trusting a big league role to someone who’s never seen an MLB pitch, and it can go wrong in any number of ways, be it performance or injury. Sure, the MLB veteran could struggle or get injured too, but it’s much more comforting to be able to turn to a top prospect than a career minor leaguer in that event.

    If any of the aforementioned players do break camp with the team, it’s not the end of the world. They all have the potential to be competent pieces at minimum. It just shouldn’t be what any of us are clamoring for. They’ll be here when it’s time. Right now, the Twins have a division to win.

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    Curious which rookies you listed you think would be the sole owner of any position 100% of the time from day 1?

    At best, of the guys you mentioned, I could see Lee being very much ready for 2B (or 1b?) and Martin in the mix as a utility guy. Is that asking a TON of either of them? Maybe? But I have to believe the coaching staff knows their abilities and how ready they are to produce much better than any of us do.

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    19 minutes ago, Cory Engelhardt said:

    At best, of the guys you mentioned, I could see Lee being very much ready for 2B (or 1b?) and Martin in the mix as a utility guy.

    I think you have that backwards. Lee should probably slide in at third while Lewis moves over to second. It's a better use of their defensive skillsets.

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    Just now, Brock Beauchamp said:

    I think you have that backwards. Lee should probably slide in at third while Lewis moves over to second. It's a better use of their defensive skillsets.

    That could be. I've always figured Lewis would end up in the outfield anyway. But truly, with the team (at their end of year/exit interview) said they were planning on Lewis being the 3B, my assumption for early 2024 is that is where he is right?

     

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    9 minutes ago, Cory Engelhardt said:

    That could be. I've always figured Lewis would end up in the outfield anyway. But truly, with the team (at their end of year/exit interview) said they were planning on Lewis being the 3B, my assumption for early 2024 is that is where he is right?

    I'm not sure Lewis is interested in playing OF. He absolutely did not want to be there in 2023 and the Twins went along with that. I don't know if that was a one season thing as he recovered from the ACL or if it's a permanent preference.

    But Lewis's skillset looks nice at second.

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    29 minutes ago, Cory Engelhardt said:

    Curious which rookies you listed you think would be the sole owner of any position 100% of the time from day 1?

    At best, of the guys you mentioned, I could see Lee being very much ready for 2B (or 1b?) and Martin in the mix as a utility guy. Is that asking a TON of either of them? Maybe? But I have to believe the coaching staff knows their abilities and how ready they are to produce much better than any of us do.

    It might not have come through in the writing, so that’s on me, but I was thinking big league roles rather than actual positions. Martin is the only one I’ve seen get any true steam for a starting role, that being in center. I’ve seen some call for a runway being cleared for Lee, as well though.

    However, I’ve seen all the names on the list get support for an OD role of some sort—4th outfielder, platoon infielder, backup catcher, at minimum. I’m calling for that not to be plan A is all.

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    To me, it's a question of what your goals for 2024 are, and what gives you the best odds of reaching those goals. If your goal for 2024 is simply to get the young guys ABs and be ready for a bigger push in 2025 then by all means cut payroll and don't bring in anyone but maybe a starting pitcher. If the goal for 2024 is to improve on the 2023 results (the goal I'd like them to pursue) then I don't think the best odds of reaching that goal are to rely on health and/or maintained production from Lewis, Julien, Wallner, Kirilloff, and Jeffers while handing CF to Martin and trading away Polanco and/or Kepler which would open 2 more lineup spots as some on TD are suggesting they should do.

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    2 minutes ago, Greggory Masterson said:

    It might not have come through in the writing, so that’s on me, but I was thinking big league roles rather than actual positions. Martin is the only one I’ve seen get any true steam for a starting role, that being in center. I’ve seen some call for a runway being cleared for Lee, as well though.

    However, I’ve seen all the names on the list get support for an OD role of some sort—4th outfielder, platoon infielder, backup catcher, at minimum. I’m calling for that not to be plan A is all.

    Yeah, I think Martin can absolutely be in the CF mix, and probably play multiple positions. I don't see him starting fully from day 1. 

    And Lee, I do think his bat is ready. How to find a position on the field (and assure he is actually ready?) is another story

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    14 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

    I'm not sure Lewis is interested in playing OF. He absolutely did not want to be there in 2023 and the Twins went along with that. I don't know if that was a one season thing as he recovered from the ACL or if it's a permanent preference.

    But Lewis's skillset looks nice at second.

    I'd be fully on board. His range is solid, and I THINK I like Lee's arm a little bit more, so having him at 3b and Lewis at 2b makes a world of sense to me too.

     

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    7 minutes ago, Cory Engelhardt said:

    I'd be fully on board. His range is solid, and I THINK I like Lee's arm a little bit more, so having him at 3b and Lewis at 2b makes a world of sense to me too.

     

    Lee's arm is supposedly stronger and he's less speedy/rangy than Lewis. Their skillsets should match up nicely at third and second base, respectively.

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    The front office has some restrictions with the payroll this offseason which has been clear. With this the reality and the fact that some of these guys have to either sink or swim as players coming up are pushing them up the ladder. 

    As I have stated in other spots it is the perfect time to move on from Polanco and Kepler. I would hang on To Vasquez myself as his leadership is clear but could also see him moving depending on the offer. 

    Having Martin play the utility spot while he gets his feet wet makes sense and the FO believe he is a high end CF so I would not be surprised to see him as the starting CF on opening day. 

    Lee has the defensive skills to be a Gold Glove winner at 2B and his bat is ready although like most will take some lumps. 

    Like the Rays we need to move our guys that are marketable and have quality replacements to keep our system and team strong long term. 

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    Last season this team was an absolute snore through the All Star break.  The team was barely watchable with uninspired play from our team leader (Correa), our high priced free agent catcher (Vasquez), our “I don’t care we paid $11MM for him, how in the world is he getting ABs and innings” FA waste (Gallo), nothing from Buxton, and very little from Kepler and Polanco.  Do we all remember this?

    Then basically a miracle happened.  Rocco & Co have an epiphany and start to play the young guys.  Lewis and Kiriloff come back from injury, Julien and Wallner get in the lineup regularly, and Joseph becomes the de facto starting catcher. Suddenly, there is a spark and the team has life.  They are watchable - more than watchable, they are fun. Kepler gets red hot and Correa starts stepping up his game.  We end up running away with the division and win our first playoff series.

    The point is that the rookies/youngsters led the way. 100% those same young players plus Lee, Martin, Larnach and possibly Miranda need to play a big role in the ‘24 Twins.  All of them may not be there day one, but each of them need investment and trust.

    The primary goal for ‘24 should absolutely be to win the ALCS; however, we should also exit ‘24 with multiple bona fide major leaguers, if not emerging stars, from this list of core prospects.  If ‘23 taught us anything it’s that those goals are not mutually exclusive.

    Btw, the two kids who won the ROYs this season were allowed to play. Their teams invested in them with innings and ABs and the ROI followed nicely.

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    7 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

    Lee's arm is supposedly stronger and he's less speedy/rangy than Lewis. Their skillsets should match up nicely at third and second base, respectively.

    Curious where you see Julien line up defensively? I don't really see him full time anywhere, but possibly 1b/2b/LF? I do think his bat should play still, but I have a hard time penciling him anywhere and feeling confident about it.

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    20 minutes ago, specialiststeve said:

    Lee has the defensive skills to be a Gold Glove winner at 2B and his bat is ready although like most will take some lumps. 

    Check the brakes.

    Remember everyone howling about Miranda butchering 3rd with a pro defensive avg of .950 at 3rd.

    Lee? .947/.954, 3rd/SS. Not sure I see Gold Glove there.

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    27 minutes ago, Cory Engelhardt said:

    Curious where you see Julien line up defensively? I don't really see him full time anywhere, but possibly 1b/2b/LF? I do think his bat should play still, but I have a hard time penciling him anywhere and feeling confident about it.

    I would trade Julien for starting pitching (eg Arraez), immediately if not sooner....

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    I really don't see a scenario where we're going to be punting on '24. If we don't get a TV deal, we'll still need to set ourselves up for a big deal by making the playoffs in back-to-back seasons. 

    In principle, I don't have an issue with Lee and Martin making the opening-day roster. In practice, however, this would mean that infield depth and outfield depth would be really bad. I'm not super hot on the idea of our outfield being Kiersey/Martin/Larnach for a month if multiple pieces get hurt. Same thing with pitching: I am totally fine with a rotation of Lopez/Ryan/Ober/Paddack/Varland, but if Paddack and Ryan get hurt (like last year), our rotation becomes a less-than-stellar Lopez/Ober/Varland/SWR/Festa.

    The Twins front office should make lots of inexpensive moves (like the MAT trade and Solano signing from last offseason) to raise the floor of the depth so we don't get in a situation where we have to ruin the development of a prospect by playing him too soon or lose important games because a rookie needs to "take his lumps."

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    Quote

    They’ll be here when it’s time.

    Among logical fallacies, Appeal to Authority is one of the popular ones.  It masquerades as profound but says actually nothing.  Meanwhile the speaker can sit back and watch events unfold, and then point back and say, see, just like I predicted.

    On substance, I don't really disagree.  Anointing a rookie for a full time role on Opening Day is a risk the front office must carefully weigh first.  I don't see anyone, Brooks Lee included, who is a slam dunk at this time.

    But then I'm still waiting for Anthony Slama to get his fair chance.  Now there's a guy who's proven at AAA that he belongs with the big club, and it's time. :)

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    1 hour ago, davidborton said:

    Check the brakes.

    Remember everyone howling about Miranda butchering 3rd with a pro defensive avg of .950 at 3rd.

    Lee? .947/.954, 3rd/SS. Not sure I see Gold Glove there.

    Having played all three positions in college ball 2B is the "easiest" of the 3 and some so called experts say he has a chance at 3rd. So... Numbers are fine but also understanding he moved up the ladder and played different positions along the way.. tough deal. 

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    1 hour ago, terrydactyls said:

    C - Jeffers

    1B - Julien

    2B - Lewis

    SS - Correa

    3B - Lee

    LF - Kirilloff

    CF - Martin

    RF - Wallner

    DH - Buxton 

    Fun to watch and takes care of budget problems.

    Unless they get even better pitching next year than this year, this lineup (with little to zero depth behind them) isn't a division winning team (at least not to start the season with)

    As for the article Keirsey (27 in May ) and Williams (27 in 11 days) are not prospects and IMO shouldn't even be on the 40 man. If the Twins can sign them to minor league contracts (or maybe they don't even have to do that) they could be really deep depth in AAA.

    Camargo seems like a viable solution to the third catcher,  Martin and Severino seem like good AAA depth, and they shouldn't be on the opening day roster unless tragic injuries happen in spring training.

    Lee on the other hand will be 23 and is an elite prospect, so I would be fine with giving him a starting spot and seeing how he does, I don't think the Twins will do that but he is the only minor league guy where this is an option.

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    Dangit all Gregg, why you gotta be all realistic and stuff?

    The more I think about it the more I'm on the side of keeping Polo and Kep and most certainly Farmer. I think it's partly the FO MO and I also think the correct way to go for a contender. They can't risk a bunch if youth failing. One more year to see Lee and Martin and AK and Miranda and etc is more valuable than the prospects gained. Neither will fetch the starting pitcher we want so they are in that middle ground of value.

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    2 hours ago, Cory Engelhardt said:

    Curious where you see Julien line up defensively? I don't really see him full time anywhere, but possibly 1b/2b/LF? I do think his bat should play still, but I have a hard time penciling him anywhere and feeling confident about it.

    I honestly don't know. I had him written off as a DH based on early results but by the end of the season, he had clearly improved at second. I don't think he'll ever be good, or maybe even average, but I think he has a chance to stick at second.

    Which makes me more willing to trade one of the Lee/Lewis/Julien triumvirate, preferably Lee.

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    39 minutes ago, specialiststeve said:

    Having played all three positions in college ball 2B is the "easiest" of the 3...

    Understood. It is just that I see such high praise and unchecked enthusiasm for Lee here on TD that I worry the expectations are up on the living room ceiling.

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    Since we are trying to win in 2024, we should absolutely be trying to have veterans on the bench.  Maybe have one rookie they can rotate out for opportunities.  But I agree with the author and having more options is good.  if a player earns his way up from AAA, The Twins will make a spot for them.  Next year at the major league level the goal is to take another step forward in our goal to win the World Series.  Developing rookies is a subset of that goal and can take a back seat at the major league level for a year or 3.  These guys will still get their opportunities, so let's be patient for the rookies and resign Sonny Gray.

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    5 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

    I honestly don't know. I had him written off as a DH based on early results but by the end of the season, he had clearly improved at second. I don't think he'll ever be good, or maybe even average, but I think he has a chance to stick at second.

    Which makes me more willing to trade one of the Lee/Lewis/Julien triumvirate, preferably Lee.

    I feel like "preferably" is strong here, but I see where you are coming from

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    1 hour ago, jjswol said:

    I am a big believer in bringing up prospects as quickly as possible versus letting them languish in the minor leagues.

    That's fair, but when the team is in a competitive cycle like the Twins currently are I'd rather have prospects force their way on to the MLB squad rather than get there on scholarship.

    Brooks Lee is a heck of a prospect, and I'm very high on him but he hasn't crushed AAA in ways that demand the Twins make room for him immediately...yet. He earned his promotion to AAA for sure. I'm fine with having him keep earning it; I think he's going to have a great year in Saint Paul and be up early if/when we have an injury in the infield.

    Austin Martin has overcome a lot and has had a bumpy road as a prospect. he earned his promotion to AAA with his AFL performance, and did a good job coming back from injury again. But he really had one great month, so while I'm still thinking he can be a valuable player for the Twins (he profiles wonderfully for this team as a potential 4th OF/super utility player who can get on base, steal bases, play good defense in multiple positions, and have a little pop in his bat) he didn't do so well that the Twins shouldn't still look for a more proven backup CF first. Do I think he can carve out a role some time in 2024? You betcha, but he doesn't need to do it on scholarship.

    Severino is interesting as a 1B option (switch-hitter with loads of power) but again: I wouldn't move someone out to find him a job in MLB. Camargo is interesting, but the only way to put him in MLB is to move on from Vazquez, and if we do that we have no other catchers ready to step in in case of injury. Right now we'd have to eat part of Vazquez's contract anyways.

    I'm really excited about our prospects; there's some definite talents moving up through the system, but having depth is good and there's no need to create openings yet.

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