Are “Bad Clubhouse Guys” a Market Inefficiency the Twins Can Exploit In Their Hour of Need?

[ashbury]

I play more than my share of the game Out Of The Park, and it interests me that several years ago they added a Personality feature to their game.  Most players are labeled as Normal, but a few are Captain, Prankster, Humble, Sparkplug, and of course a few negative ones are labeled Disruptive, Selfish, etc.  Underlying this are user-visible traits including Intelligence, Work Ethic, Leader, and a few others.  Reputedly, there are additional traits for these players, under the hood, that the human player can not see - this manifests most notably when a player turns out to be Outspoken and seeking controversy, despite none of the normal/visible traits showing red flags.

It's just a game. But I find it intriguing, because reputedly the game designers have gained insights from insiders who work as consultants to them.  This tells me that front offices do more than simply label players "clubhouse cancers" but try to dig a little deeper.  Not all analytics involves numbers to three decimal places, and good analytics can be simply to break down something into smaller components to understand them better, even if on a simple "red/green" scale. In the game, if you can't form a team of boy scouts for players, the other approach is to hire a manager and staff who are Temperamental or Controlling, rather than Easygoing or Personable (yes, the game has personalities for managers too).

Rocco Baldelli (yes, the game has him as Personable, getting along best with Easygoing co-workers) in real life allowed himself to be quoted long ago for OOTP's marketing purposes as saying their game is "more real than not."  Even if major league teams don't use exactly the database that OOTP offers the game player, where the unknowable is just a little too certainly known, I have a feeling most of them try to address the question of personality in a systematic way.

Games like OOTP aside, I think Rocco might indeed be the wrong manager if a front office thinks truly disruptive players are a market inefficiency to exploit.  But they could experiment at the margins on this.

[Linus]

The Oakland Athletics of the 70s hated each other and won 3 World Series. 
One of my favorite Casey Stengel sayings is “the key to managing is to keep the guys that hate you away from the guys who haven’t made up their minds yet”. 

[BSLinPA]

5 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

He will never change. Ever. 

Wow.....interesting that you know Trevor so well.  Please do share this personal knowldge......beyond that which you've only read.

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, BSLinPA said:

Wow.....interesting that you know Trevor so well.  Please do share this personal knowldge......beyond that which you've only read.

I mean, he's never apologized or admitted he was wrong. But we're clearly not going to agree on this *******.

[BSLinPA]

23 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

I mean, he's never apologized or admitted he was wrong. But we're clearly not going to agree on this *******.

Somethin' tells me that ******* is not the word "PITCHER".  :-)  So I'm relieved you didn't put a comma after the word "this" and the seven asterisks!!    

You're correct, apparently a subject about which we do/will not agree.......no prob with that here, MS. (tried unsuccessfully to PM you)

GO TWINS!!

[Redninja213]

What a **** article! Honestly wast of time 

 

[Greggory Masterson]

55 minutes ago, Redninja213 said:

What a **** article! Honestly wast of time 

 

I'm gonna need more constructive feedback than that if you have any hopes of me improving my writing.

[Mark G]

Once upon a time, the clubhouse in MLB was like a home away from home.  During the season they spent more time there, and more time with the other guys, than they did with their families.  So chemistry and being able to get along for almost 8 months were pretty important.  Now back in the day, players stayed on the same teams for far longer periods of time than they do today.  You came up to the bigs, and if you stayed and had a pretty decent career, unless you were traded you stayed the length of your career on the same team.  Again, except for trades and occasional rookies coming up, the clubhouse was pretty similar year after year for a lot of guys.  Unfortunately, that was then, this is now.  Today, with free agency, options for guys going back and forth to AAA, non tendering for money reasons, trades.......did I mention free agency.......the team turns over players at a much higher rate.  Ip so facto, it means less and less whether or not someone is a great clubhouse guy, seeing he probably won't be around a lot of years.  Over the course of my lifetime MLB has become just a game only to the fans; it is a business to the players, and loyalty, on both sides, ownership and players, is a rare commodity.  How many of us have (or have had) co workers we don't really care for, but we do our jobs anyway?  This is just a job to the players, and they have learned to live with the guys they don't care for and just do their job. 

My long winded point is unless you are looking at another Billy Martin, never knowing when a fight is going to break out, the bad clubhouse guys don't mean as much anymore.  If we are going to sign someone, have it be for what they will bring to the field, not the clubhouse, because the clubhouse turns over all the time.  From everything I have read, 2 of the best clubhouse guys the team has had were Thome and Cruz, and how many years did each guy spend here?  The players hang with who they want to hang with, and just look at it as their work place.  I don't spend a lot of time worrying about personality conflicts in the clubhouse.  As long as no one is attacking anyone, the players will be just fine with whomever is in the clubhouse.  

[notoriousgod71]

Joan Ryan wrote a book called "intangibles: unlocking the science and soul to team chemistry" that I enjoyed quite a bit and made me think about a lot of things.

She says you should stay away from the cancers or malingerers BUT if the cancer is so great (bonds) it really doesn't matter.

You do need a variety of personality types and people that aren't afraid to take others to task if they're not producing as they are expected to.

Check it out of you wish.

[LambchoP]

My question is why are the Twins so down on Jair Camargo all of a sudden? If I remember correctly, he was touted as a possible catcher of the future do to his bat. Now they're acting like he's not capable of being Jeffers' backup .....

[sweetmusicviola16]

15 hours ago, BSLinPA said:

Wow.....interesting that you know Trevor so well.  Please do share this personal knowldge......beyond that which you've only read.

When change occurs you don't get on a soapbox and pronounce, "I've changed!" "Look at me," You do it moment by moment, a decision at a time. And still make mistakes.

[Greggory Masterson]

1 hour ago, notoriousgod71 said:

Joan Ryan wrote a book called "intangibles: unlocking the science and soul to team chemistry" that I enjoyed quite a bit and made me think about a lot of things.

I read Intangibles a couple years ago, and it’s a great summary of some really good studies with some insightful commentary from athletes and coaches. A great book and especially approachable if you’re first starting to ask yourself questions like “what is team chemistry.” I’d recommend it to any sports fan.

[TopGunn#22]

I find your article very interesting Gregg.  This has always been a mystery that is seldom understood and very often misunderstood.  Linus brought up a great point about the 70's Oakland A's having a lot of conflicting personalities yet still winning 3 consecutive World Series in 1972, 1973 and 1974.  They may have even won a couple more had their owner not traded or sold off the core of the team.

I would also add to the example Linus provided that the Oakland Raiders of the 1970's and 1980's were LEGENDARY for welcoming every malcontent or misfit onto their teams.  The Raiders were probably the winningest team of the 70's.

I think Ashbury's point about OOTP employing a team chemistry feature that rates players on various traits is interesting.  I wonder if he has ever had Trevor Bauer on a team and if he did, what was the impact?  Was he a highly effective pitcher?? (which he probably would be if an MLB team signed him) Or was he a major problem who also was a lousy pitcher?  Ashbury, if you have anything to share on this I'd be interested.  Could the Twins have stopped their collapse and made the playoffs if a pitcher of Bauer's talent had been in the rotation instead of a rookie like Festa or Matthews?  

I believe that any of us on TD who are perfect in every way are welcome to cast the first stone when it comes to a guy like Bauer. So all you "perfect people" are welcome to pick up your rock and loosen up. 

From a pure on the field standpoint the only player I can think of that has as big of an upside as Bauer, performance-wise, at the lowest cost possible, is Roki Sasaki.  For a team that is pinching pennies like the Twins they have still been reluctant.  Bauer and Sasaki are 2 completely different people, but the trait they have in common is that they are top-flight PITCHERS.  I predict SOMEBODY is going to sign Trevor Bauer for the 2025 season. 

The Tommy Herr for Tom Brunansky trade made sense on paper.  The Twins were not happy with Steve Lombardozi's lack of offense at 2B and felt they had enough potential to come close to Bruno's production in the OF with Randy Bush, Mark Davidson and Johnny Moses collectively replacing Bruno.  Bush and Moses did O.K, but Mark Davidson as the RH hitting part of that collective was not the prospect the Twins thought they had.

Herr was REALLY disappointed in the trade, and while he didn't play at the level he played at in 1985 for the Cards, he was much better than Lombo.  The Cardinals also had a 24 year old Jose Oquendo ready to step in for Herr.  We always hear about how tough the New York, Philly or Boston media is on players and how soft our Twin Cities media is.  But there were certain media scribes who decided to make Tommy Herr the primary reason the Twins were passed by the Oakland A's in 1988 following the Twins World Series Championship.  The Twins didn't lose because of Tommy Herr.  They lost because the A's became a juggernaut that would have passed the Twins in 1988 no matter what.  Bruno was a shadow of what he had been for the Twins when he played in St. Louis and was gone from the Cards early in the 1990 season.

Bottom Line:  Chemistry IS important.  The Minnesota Lynx had tremendous chemistry this last season.  The New York Liberty clearly had more talent.  The Lynx had more grit and better team chemistry and in the end, the Lynx were simply robbed of the WNBA Championship. 

But could the Lynx have won the title if they hadn't made the draft trade with Chicago giving up the chance to add Angel Reese and getting little used Alissa Pili instead.  Reese was much more impactful than Pili in their rookie seasons.  Maybe the Lynx win the title with Reese.  Or maybe Reese clashes with Collier and the Lynx never even make it to the Finals.  It's an interesting debate.  Talent vs. Chemistry.  

[bean5302]

11 hours ago, Redninja213 said:

What a **** article! Honestly wast of time 

 

Agree with @Greggory Masterson here on needing a little more info and a little less rage. Obviously, this article hit you the wrong way, but no idea why? Do you think the players are being unfairly categorized or do you think the idea any bad clubhouse presence is a horrible idea? Maybe you're upset it didn't include a player you thought it should?

I don't think exploring the potential of getting performance from a clubhouse diva on a discount is a bad idea, but there are plenty of guys with iffy reputations in the public eye. Max Scherzer called Justin Verlander a "diva" in the clubhouse, and Max has a reputation for being essentially bat-$#!4 insane. From Tim Anderson to Marcus Stroman and even Max Kepler, there are rough catches on the armor as soon as anything negative is reported about a player.

[old nurse]

When the toxic player is at best an average player the negatives outweigh the positives.  Witness how many times Pham has been signed to a 1 yr contract. St Louis kept him while he was productive   

[dxpavelka]

On 12/13/2024 at 12:25 PM, Doctor Gast said:

Yes we aren't that far off. I was open to take on Bauer because I thought our clubhouse was solid enough, we really needed him, he was cheap, he had changed & he was a competitor. Right now IMO he isn't an option.

To be fair, Bauer has more bedroom issues than clubhouse issues.

 

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, old nurse said:

When the toxic player is at best an average player the negatives outweigh the positives.  Witness how many times Pham has been signed to a 1 yr contract. St Louis kept him while he was productive   

This. 

[Senior Softball Guy]

Kirby Puckett, between the lines was beloved for the way he played the game and his charisma. Off the field he was a flawed human being. Dan Gladden had fights with teammates in Minnesota, Detroit, and San Francisco yet he brought a "win-at-all-costs" attitude to the team. AJ was 86ed out of San Fran because he was, quote, "a clubhouse cancer".  Winning does cure a lot of ills and if you are a diva like Barry Bonds, you overlook a lot of stuff!

[Richie the Rally Goat]

On 12/13/2024 at 11:56 AM, Doctor Gast said:

I'm sorry Greg, IMO clubhouse chemistry is super important, The change in clubhouse chemistry last season was the difference in correcting the plane in a nosedive & crashing. The loss of Polanco, now Kepler, later Vazquez maybe Correa or Lopez maybe more core players. And you think adding Grandal & Pham will help us? 1st their bad chemistry, 2nd they cost more than I'd want to pay for them & 3rd they aren't that good & IMO we can do much better elsewhere or in-house.

Twins had great chemistry when they got Donaldson. But even so they couldn't take Donaldson & we took a big hit in trading him. But thanks for the interesting article.

Polanco was the glue that held the 2023 Twins together? 
 

2023 Twins were 5% above AL average in runs scored, ranked 5th.

2024 Twins were 15.5% above AL average in runs scored ranked 4th.

Correlation is not causation. i think it was all the injuries happening at once in August 2024 that caused the collapse, and not some clubhouse cancer that Polanco would have saved.

edit to add: agreed with the OP that chemistry does matter, but it’s not black and white. Social chemistry is harder to quantify than molecular chemistry.

[jorgenswest]

Tommy Pham had an 93 OPS+ last year and he will be 37. Grandal allowed 66 of 72 base stealing attempts at 36. Both should be expected to decline further.

I don’t buy the premise that either is bad for the clubhouse. Why does the clubhouse even matter if they have declined to the point where they are not productive on the field?

[bean5302]

6 hours ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

Polanco was the glue that held the 2023 Twins together? ...

No, no, no, that was just miscommunication.

Polanco needed the special clubhouse glue to hold his knees together. Lost in the translation. Reminds me of the old Sprint mobile bad communication commercial.

"What they said was ship the Enron documents to the feds, but what they heard was rip the Enron documents to shreds. Clearly a case of bad cellular."

[DJL44]

10 hours ago, old nurse said:

Witness how many times Pham has been signed to a 1 yr contract.

And how many times a contender has ADDED him at the deadline

[old nurse]

6 hours ago, DJL44 said:

And how many times a contender has ADDED him at the deadline

Winning does mute negative behavior a little. Some organizations do not appear to care. The Twins do not seem to be one of them 

[tony&rodney]

A brief note on Herr. He loved playing in St. Louis. It was a divorce he never saw coming or expected. His employment and life was changed totally and he couldn't adjust. I believe we occasionally underestimate the human side of situations. Herr just could not make the switch. He was willing to play for a minimum for St. Louis as opposed to making bank for Minnesota. Perhaps some of you have quit your job or changed careers to avoid a mandated move.

[TopGunn#22]

Good point on Tommy Herr tony&rodney.  I think it stung him even worse that he was traded to the team that had just beaten his FORMER team in the World Series.

A question for the TD community, and I apologize ahead of time for my ignorance.  Is there any reason why my earlier post has no button to like/dislike or agree/disagree with my comment?  Everyone else has had some sort of feedback for their comment except me, and it appears there is no way to do so.

I commented on a number of things.  I mentioned Trevor Bauer because he was brought up in several other posts.  I have been warned about my commenting on Bauer in the past so had refrained for a long time until this post because others had made a point either in his favor or against.  Is there any kind of statue of limitations for this?  

If my post upset anyone, I apologize.  But I didn't think I said anything over the line.  I still maintain that for a team that is so overly concerned about payroll while putting out a questionable desire to compete for a divisional title, that a pitcher of his talent who would sign for the league minimum is beyond rare.  His baggage/clubhouse dynamic is undeniable.  But so is his talent.  If others have injected his situation into a thread what sets my initial comment apart from the others?

I'm just looking for guidance from other TD posters that might have some insight into this.  

[TFRazor]

On 12/14/2024 at 1:09 AM, Greggory Masterson said:

I'm gonna need more constructive feedback than that if you have any hopes of me improving my writing.

Articles fine. Good work.