Jorge Alcalá Goes to Minors Again, as Twins Continue Puzzling Pattern of Roster Moves

[Riverbrian]

18 minutes ago, LA VIkes Fan said:

It pains me out say this as someone who has advocated for more playing time for some of our young players, but RiverBrian may be correct. I think we simply may have overestimated the talent of these young guys or at least where they are in terms of development. It's becoming more and more obvious that Lewis and Wallner may have high upsides but are a long way from being able to consistently provide value, particularly Lewis. Larnach looks like he might be a solid platoon outfielder, but doesn't look like he will ever be much more than that. Castro had a nice run early in the season but he is what he is, a utility player will give you something like a .240 to .250 average, decent but not elite defense in three or four positions, occasional power, some speed, and a roughly .725 OPS. In other words, a nice 10th man but not a starter on a contending team. Miranda's future is becoming muddier by the day with a range from solid everyday player to benchwarmer, but not a middle of the order bat. I would tend to give the young pitching a bit of a pass because they're getting more run than expected, but it's hard to see any of them other than SWR providing value next year and only Alcala from the group of young relievers looking like he might have any sort of short term impact.

In other words, this "emerging core" I thought we might have is looking less and less like the basis for contending team. After watching the last month (cue recency bias) and thinking about the fact that this team is likely to use these young guys next year and not pick up any more veteran talent, I see the Twins potentially taking a pretty significant step back next year and falling behind Cleveland, Kansas City, and Detroit. It's amazing what six weeks can do to one's outlook.

I appreciate that but that isn't what I'm really saying. 

I was basically saying that trying to attribute our current problems with youth being stretched beyond what they have been asked to do previously may or may not be the reason. 

The Tigers this year are doing it with their youth being stretched beyond what they've been asked to do previously. Last year... I believe it was our youth that got us to the playoffs. Our vets certainly were not getting the job done. 

In our current funk... Vets and Youth combined have to look in the mirror. 

Lewis, Castro, Kepler, Miranda, Vazquez have fallen hard. 

The rotation... yeah that's almost all youth but that's what we have to work with. Youth is pitching just fine in Detroit. 

I think you can safely keep advocating for more youth playing time. Ultimately that youth, will have to carry some water because we are not going to buy water carriers in the free agent market. 

I remain not afraid of youth. I remain afraid of vets on expiring contracts that struggle. 

Cull from the bottom until the bottom is raised. Getting painted into a corner in September is just bad planning. Injuries are no excuse. 

Baseball is such an interesting game... every team has a different story and that's what I love about it.

 

 

[Riverbrian]

5 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

In general, yes, they should use options on talented guys instead of DFAing the talented guy, but my point was that choosing Alcala as the guy to go away for Irvin shouldn't have been about him having options and other guys not. He shouldn't have been demoted simply because he has options. He should only have been the one sent packing if he was the one deemed to provide the least amount of help on the field for the next 12 games.

And on that I agree.

I like to say "Options are powerful thing". So I said it. 

[DJL44]

I looked through the transactions and Varland has been optioned 5 times already which means they would have to outright him to send him to the minor leagues.

[TwinsDr2021]

1 hour ago, LA VIkes Fan said:

I think we simply may have overestimated the talent of these young guys or at least where they are in terms of development. It's becoming more and more obvious that Lewis and Wallner may have high upsides but are a long way from being able to consistently provide value, particularly Lewis. Larnach looks like he might be a solid platoon outfielder,

Are you saying guys that get to the majors in their mid 20's or later probably or likely won't end up being a difference maker type of player?

[Mike Sixel]

18 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Are you saying guys that get to the majors in their mid 20's or later probably or likely won't end up being a difference maker type of player?

People say that all the time, ignoring the fact a college junior is 21 or 22.....and is likely to spend 2+ years in the minors....so, they literally won't get to the majors until their mid 20s.

[Doctor Gast]

1 hour ago, LA VIkes Fan said:

It pains me out say this as someone who has advocated for more playing time for some of our young players, but RiverBrian may be correct. I think we simply may have overestimated the talent of these young guys or at least where they are in terms of development. It's becoming more and more obvious that Lewis and Wallner may have high upsides but are a long way from being able to consistently provide value, particularly Lewis. Larnach looks like he might be a solid platoon outfielder, but doesn't look like he will ever be much more than that. Castro had a nice run early in the season but he is what he is, a utility player will give you something like a .240 to .250 average, decent but not elite defense in three or four positions, occasional power, some speed, and a roughly .725 OPS. In other words, a nice 10th man but not a starter on a contending team. Miranda's future is becoming muddier by the day with a range from solid everyday player to benchwarmer, but not a middle of the order bat. I would tend to give the young pitching a bit of a pass because they're getting more run than expected, but it's hard to see any of them other than SWR providing value next year and only Alcala from the group of young relievers looking like he might have any sort of short term impact.

In other words, this "emerging core" I thought we might have is looking less and less like the basis for contending team. After watching the last month (cue recency bias) and thinking about the fact that this team is likely to use these young guys next year and not pick up any more veteran talent, I see the Twins potentially taking a pretty significant step back next year and falling behind Cleveland, Kansas City, and Detroit. It's amazing what six weeks can do to one's outlook.

We started the season with Lopez, Ryan, Ober, Paddack & DeSclavani with unproven as a SP Varland in the hole. There was a lot of hype that Paddack was going to step up pick up a lot of innings & take over Gray's spot & DeSclavani was going to anchor the rotation, we really didn't need to add anyone else. Did they really believed their own hype? Did they really close their eyes to the real condition of Paddack & DeSclavani? And how thin the ice was they were treading on? DeSclavani didn't materialize, Varland bombed. SWR saved FO's neck by pitching well above what they expected. & when Paddack & then Ryan's arm gave out, 2 more rookies stepped up & continued to save this FO's neck. Instead of seeing the real condition of overextending our rookies they refused to seek help & basically told the rookies (with some fan's blessings) to suck it up! Fortunately they are still healthy but they are out of gas.

Do the Twins hate Alcala? That's pretty strong but it makes you think in how they treat Alcala that they have it in with him. But maybe in his case too that they refuse to see the real condition of him being hurt for some time until recently & that he needs some special considerations. Instead they see him as stats with options & not see what's best for him & this team. They squeeze what they can & then send him down. Seems like an inconsiderate & inefficient way of getting the best from him.

[Mike Sixel]

2 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

We started the season with Lopez, Ryan, Ober, Paddack & DeSclavani with unproven as a SP Varland in the hole. There was a lot of hype that Paddack was going to step up pick up a lot of innings & take over Gray's spot & DeSclavani was going to anchor the rotation, we really didn't need to add anyone else. Did they really believed their own hype? Did they really close their eyes to the real condition of Paddack & DeSclavani? And how thin the ice was they were treading on? DeSclavani didn't materialize, Varland bombed. SWR saved FO's neck by pitching well above what they expected. & when Ryan's arm gave out, 2 more rookies stepped up & continued to save this FO's neck. Instead of seeing the real condition of overextending our rookies they refused to seek help & basically told the rookies (with some fan's blessings) to suck it up! Fortunately they are still healthy but they are out of gas.

Do the Twins hate Alcala? That's pretty strong but it makes you think in how they treat Alcala that they have it in with him. But maybe in his case too that they refuse to see the real condition of him being hurt for some time until recently & that he needs some special considerations. Instead they see him as stats with options & not see what's best for him & this team. They squeeze what they can & then send him down. Seems like an inconsiderate & inefficient way of getting the best from him.

Or the owners wouldn't let them add payroll....so how would you get a decent SP (and backup 1B, CF, and keep Kepler and Vazquez)?

[old nurse]

2 hours ago, NYCTK said:

The Twins organization loser mentality has really permeated the fanbase. Jorge isn't some 22 year old that's just learning how to be a professional athlete. He's 29! 

If you are talking about loser mentality you would be talking about yourself.. what part of oft injured did you not understand.? Alcala was injured in 22 and 23. 

[NYCTK]

With the self inflicted financial limitations of this team, the Carlos Correa contract is just such a big mistake. It's not a terrible contract in a vacuum but it is when that represents 30% of the budget. 

After him and Pablo, the Twins only have like 70 Million to play with. Just terrible, terrible roster construction. 

I, frankly, don't see how the Twins can compete next season. Especially with all the other ALC teams (with obvious exception) developing talent this season so much better. 

[bean5302]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Do the recall rules apply there? I'm not sure if that's a regular season only rule or not. Wouldn't be surprised if that rule ends after game 162 and it moves over to the playoff roster rules at that point with no concern for if or when a player had been optioned. But I'm not real clear on the intricacies of that rule.

I can't say for 100% certain since MLB's rules aren't always clear or comprehensive online. The IL calendar days appear to matter into the postseason for eligibility so it would make sense option rules would do the same.
https://www.mlb.com/glossary/transactions/postseason-roster-rules-eligibility

[NYCTK]

1 hour ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Are you saying guys that get to the majors in their mid 20's or later probably or likely won't end up being a difference maker type of player?

Mostly, yes. If a player comes out of college and has struggled to become a full time player within 4 seasons then the odds of that still happening is greatly decreased. The odds they become a difference maker is small. They can more likely become a regular, stop gap type player for 3 seasons. 

[bean5302]

Options do not really apply here. You need to spend 20 days on an optional assignment. There are not 20 days left in the regular season.

The only way an "option" could be burned right now is if:
A) Player had already been optioned 1 time and 1 time only this year
B) AND the player's optional assignment had lasted only 10-19 days total.

If the Twins are, say, trying to protect Zebby Matthews from burning an option, it would be an incompetent decision because there's not enough time for him to burn that option anyway.

[Doctor Gast]

42 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Or the owners wouldn't let them add payroll....so how would you get a decent SP (and backup 1B, CF, and keep Kepler and Vazquez)?

The core that was so successful in the postseason was pretty much intact in the offseason & we were under budget. Only Gray needed to be replaced. With hope that Ryan & Ober were to step up & a mid-rotation arm that'd eat up innings was all that was needed that could easily be obtained in an easy trade w/o spending a dime. That was our most needed move but they didn't make a real attempt to fill it. Instead of filling that need to the core group they decided to subtract the heart & soul of the team, Mr Clutch, which made a big difference. We absolutely didn't need backup CFer or 1Bman. We spent a lot of wasted salaries on new acquisitions that handcuffed us from making any decent rentals at the deadline even though decent trades could be had but again they did nothing to address a real need.

[NYCTK]

Jarren Duran is the exception to that rule this season, became a starter last year at 26 before he got hurt. This, his age 27 season being his first full season in the majors. 

[NYCTK]

31 minutes ago, old nurse said:

If you are talking about loser mentality you would be talking about yourself.. what part of oft injured did you not understand.? Alcala was injured in 22 and 23. 

What that has to do with him being demoted to AAA, IDK 

[Mike Sixel]

11 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

The core that was so successful in the postseason was pretty much intact in the offseason & we were under budget. Only Gray needed to be replaced. With hope that Ryan & Ober were to step up & a mid-rotation arm that'd eat up innings was all that was needed that could easily be obtained in an easy trade w/o spending a dime. That was our most needed move but they didn't make a real attempt to fill it. Instead of filling that need to the core group they decided to subtract the heart & soul of the team, Mr Clutch, which made a big difference. We absolutely didn't need backup CFer or 1Bman. We spent a lot of wasted salaries on new acquisitions that handcuffed us from making any decent rentals at the deadline even though decent trades could be had but again they did nothing to address a real need.

Who is the 1B if not Santana the last 4 months? I mean, I agreed at the time with your take, but we've been proven wrong. No idea who your CF is. 

What good SP moved in the off season that cost zero dollars?

[TwinsDr2021]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

People say that all the time, ignoring the fact a college junior is 21 or 22.....and is likely to spend 2+ years in the minors....so, they literally won't get to the majors until their mid 20s.

and people on here all the time say these guys just getting to the majors at that age are the solution to any issues the Twins have, and based on the history of baseball it is more the exception than the rule that a guy coming up at  25 or later ever becomes that type of player. Age 24 for a high school or International signing it is also very unlikely; for a college player it is kind of a toss up, really depending on position or type of player. Generally if a baseball player is going to be a full time difference maker type of player they have shown those skills by that age. I am not saying that they can't become good nice MLB players (see Kyle Farmer).

Sure others have pointed out a dozen of so players that have succeeded but there are thousands that don't.

[Mike Sixel]

27 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

and people on here all the time say these guys just getting to the majors at that age are the solution to any issues the Twins have, and based on the history of baseball it is more the exception than the rule that a guy coming up at  25 or later ever becomes that type of player. Age 24 for a high school or International signing it is also very unlikely; for a college player it is kind of a toss up, really depending on position or type of player. Generally if a baseball player is going to be a full time difference maker type of player they have shown those skills by that age. I am not saying that they can't become good nice MLB players (see Kyle Farmer).

Sure others have pointed out a dozen of so players that have succeeded but there are thousands that don't.

no one says every prospect is going to work and is THE answer. 

There are thousands who don't, we agree, but that has nothing to do with college players being in their mid 20s in their first full season of minor league ball. Unless 24 somehow isn't mid 20s?

[Whitey333]

Strange handling of Alcala by a strange front office and organization.  Why should we be surprised?

[roger]

4 hours ago, jorgenswest said:

Seems like an irresponsible take. 

I too was extremely disappointed in Eric's use of the 'h' word.

As for the story, expect that Alcala is tired, as his performance has indicated the past month or so.  

[karcherd]

This is analytics at its finest.  Relievers are just plug and play and per the analytics staff they can go into any role and throw the pitch selection provided by the staff.  The dynamic duo in the front office has decided roles in the bullpen do not matter and they will just continue to cycle thru pitchers and not worry about putting your best pitchers in roles to succeed.  Alcala is a one inning pitcher and should not be in middle relief but that doesn't work in this organization.

[DJL44]

19 minutes ago, karcherd said:

Alcala is a one inning pitcher and should not be in middle relief but that doesn't work in this organization.

So you think he should be the closer? He hasn't earned that.

[karcherd]

1 minute ago, DJL44 said:

So you think he should be the closer? He hasn't earned that.

No he should be a 7th inning pitcher, not middle innings when you need length.

[TwinsDr2021]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

no one says every prospect is going to work and is THE answer. 

There are thousands who don't, we agree, but that has nothing to do with college players being in their mid 20s in their first full season of minor league ball. Unless 24 somehow isn't mid 20s?

My point was based off the others comment. The Twins were depending on Wallner, Larnach, Martin, Miranda, Julien and Farmer and they all fall into that category.  All decent to good players but at this point not difference makers outside a hot streak or two. And teams need guys like this as a starter, platoon players, bench and depth you just can't rely on a lineup of them.

[NYCTK]

22 minutes ago, karcherd said:

No he should be a 7th inning pitcher, not middle innings when you need length.

I'm gonna a curmudgeon old timer and say that pitchers are too soft these days, and every third time out they should expect to need to pitch more than 1 inning. 

[Mike Sixel]

2 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

My point was based off the others comment. The Twins were depending on Wallner, Larnach, Martin, Miranda, Julien and Farmer and they all fall into that category.  All decent to good players but at this point not difference makers outside a hot streak or two. And teams need guys like this as a starter, platoon players, bench and depth you just can't rely on a lineup of them.

Larnach, Martin, and Miranda started in the minors....so I'm not sure how they planned to depend on them. Farmer is clearly a backup, not someone they were counting on depending on.

My point, that you responded to, was the college players are going to be in their mid 20s before they play in the majors nearly every single time, so saying that those guys rarely work out isn't about premiering in their mid 20s, but that most minor leaguers don't work out. 

[NYCTK]

9 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Larnach, Martin, and Miranda started in the minors....so I'm not sure how they planned to depend on them. Farmer is clearly a backup, not someone they were counting on depending on.

My point, that you responded to, was the college players are going to be in their mid 20s before they play in the majors nearly every single time, so saying that those guys rarely work out isn't about premiering in their mid 20s, but that most minor leaguers don't work out. 

I think it's more looking to next season. Next year, all three of those are likely on the opening day roster. Which...isn't good. 

And if a college bat is going to be an impact player, they're likely going to advance quickly. Case in point, Brooks Lee was in AA by the end of the season he was drafted. Which isn't rare or unexpected. 

Another example, Paul Skenes might win ROY the season after he was drafted. He's obviously exceptional, but college players, if impactful, should be ready for high level minors basically instantly. 

[kroll]

Good "wake-up"......... Sorry if his feelings are hurt.

Mediocrity means you get a pat on the back?

Don't have the energy to see how much he makes per year  but he will be fine.

[Coach Wheels]

8 hours ago, JD-TWINS said:

Zebby is THE 5th starter - can’t move him - he’s starting today and again on Sunday - and so on………….Thielbar - Blewett - Tonkin have no options. Hopefully, Alcala will be rested and ready come October……..it’s a calculated risk with Irvin!!

October? There's a great chance after this week, Detroit has passed Minnesota and we're out. 3 bs Cleveland and 3 vs Boston.....easily the potential for a 2-5 week

[Richie the Rally Goat]

9 hours ago, Bodie said:

Not just no, but 7734 NO!  That bunch gets a release not a DFA.  Keep such ridiculous overreliance on analytics away from the kids.

(If the 1st line confuses you, get out a calculator and turn it upside-down)

Hell on? I don’t get it?