Ranking the Top 5 Worst Minnesota Twins Defenders in 2024

[Schmoeman5]

2 hours ago, DJL44 said:

Which better players? Julien is struggling of late. Wallner and Kiriloff have been awful and bad (respectively). Larnach hasn't had a hit in 10 days. They don't have a catcher to replace Vazquez (Camargo is injured) and Jeffers is playing nearly every day. There is one player in AAA who looks interesting (Keirsey) but that's more for his glove than for his bat.

You pick on Margot but he's 4-8 with a walk over his past 3 games played. Farmer is 3-9 with two doubles and 4 RBI over the same stretch. They're losing this past week but it isn't Farmer or Margot's fault.

Stats. But are you watching?  Margot 4-8 last 3 games. Weak contact, finding holes. Farmer has hit the ball pretty well. These guys couldn't have gone much lower. Just when it seems Santana might be turning the corner he reverts back. Watch the swings. Vasquez. I don't care if his defense is great and its not. It's a hole. Larnach had a bad game vs Yanks knucklecurve arm. So did the whole team. He's been scorching a lot of balls that aren't falling in your 10 game scenario. Castro has over 1000 OPS vs lefties yet his avg with RISP is like .150. Buxton. All he does is pull everything.  Till he opens up he'll smoke a ball here and there. There's a guy I just don't get. Julien needs to stop acting like Julia. Miranda and Correa have been OK. Jeffers has cooled off. The only consistent hitter has been Kepler. But only after he started 1-20. Didn't mention Kirilloff. But I think you get the jist. 

[rv78]

1 hour ago, tony&rodney said:

The Twins are not a good defensive team, but part of the problem is that defense is not an important consideration in the viewpoint of those guys who put together the roster. The Twins are doing, more or less, what could be expected in the field and thus it doesn't make sense to believe these players can be something they just are not ... good defenders. The mental mistakes and poor at bats are a different story.

To some extent I respectfully disagree. Margot, Santana, Correa, even extending an unreliable Buxton were all done with defense in mind. Add Gallo to that equation last year............ because his bat says he should've retired a long time ago. Plus this FO has been drafting or trading heavy for SS for years and SS are known for their defensive talent .... Lewis, Lee, Martin, Miller not to mention the later round picks. If they are drafting and trading specifically for bats and we now have players that can't hit then there is another aspect of the game they are trying to do that is missing or fundamentally wrong, because it isn't working. As I said in another article, most players need consistant playing time to be consistantly good. Rocco is consistantly platooning leftys and rightys based on pitchers faced and with that there is no consistancy of playing time for the Twins hitters. Why constantly do it when it doesn't work? Only a Manager that is blind, stubborn, or mentally incompetant would. There's the problem.

[IndianaTwin]

34 minutes ago, Whitey333 said:

Forget the lefty/ righty bs for a while.  For example play Kepler regularly.  I realize he may be gone at the end of the season but you need to play your better players more regular.  I realize we are "only" 50 games or so into the season but it's a mediocre team run by a mediocre FO and managed by a less than mediocre manager.  It is whaf it is.  That is a very frustrating team for fans to follow and sink your teeth into.  Notice I didn't say watch as that has been near impossible for many of us these past few years.  That's a different story for another time.

Since coming off the IL, Kepler has played in 24 of the team's 26 games. He's started 15 of the last 19 games and entered two of the remaining four. In the two games he didn't play at all, they got blown out in each. We won't know, obviously, but my hunch is that had the game situation called for it, he would have been used, but when you're down 7-0 or 7-1 after five and 11-0 or 10-3 after seven, I'm guessing Rocco decided to give him the whole day off. Plus Margot was actually 4 for 8 in RF in the two games Kepler missed. 

That seems like Kepler's playing pretty regularly. 

[Shaitan]

All 5 you listed are backups at their positions, so this list is hardly revealing. It would at least be helpful to see how many innings they've played at these positions to get an idea of what you're ranking.

[USAFChief]

I believe one fundamental issue with defense in this organization is their belief that anyone can play anywhere, any time. Move guys around willy nilly, including in the minors. Infield to outfield, vice versa. Nobody ever learns a position.

Pick a spot, play it every day in the minors. Learn it.  

[DJL44]

29 minutes ago, Schmoeman5 said:

Vasquez. I don't care if his defense is great and its not. It's a hole.

Okay, but what option is better? Play Jeffers every day at catcher and wear him out before the All-Star break? Cut Vazquez and promote Pat Winkel (currently batting .181 in AAA)?

The team is playing bad but everyone who is playing well has been given consistent playing time. You can't change the lineup card and fix this team.

[USAFChief]

8 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Okay, but what option is better? Play Jeffers every day at catcher and wear him out before the All-Star break? Cut Vazquez and promote Pat Winkel (currently batting .181 in AAA)?

The team is playing bad but everyone who is playing well has been given consistent playing time. You can't change the lineup card and fix this team.

You can play Jeffers at catcher at a 115-120 gm/yr pace, like catchers have ALWAYS done. There's no law mandating Vazquez gets on the field every other game, no matter the results.

 

Granted, that'd be easier if the geniuses running the Twins had an actual hitter to DH, but still. There's literally 12 better lineup options on the active roster than Vazquez. 

[CRF]

3 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

The Twins are not a good defensive team, but part of the problem is that defense is not an important consideration in the viewpoint of those guys who put together the roster. The Twins are doing, more or less, what could be expected in the field and thus it doesn't make sense to believe these players can be something they just are not ... good defenders. The mental mistakes and poor at bats are a different story.

This is 100% correct. This is a bad defensive team because there's no priority for defense. 

[DJL44]

56 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

You can play Jeffers at catcher at a 115-120 gm/yr pace, like catchers have ALWAYS done. There's no law mandating Vazquez gets on the field every other game, no matter the results.

Jeffers has played 41 of the Twins 47 games. He's on pace to play in 141 games in 2024. He's catching about half time and DH another 1/3. They're pushing Jeffers plenty hard already.

[USAFChief]

9 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Jeffers has played 41 of the Twins 47 games. He's on pace to play in 141 games in 2024. He's catching about half time and DH another 1/3. They're pushing Jeffers plenty hard already.

Stop it. 

Jeffers at CATCHER. 

Catcher. 120 games.

It's been done, and nobody died.

And it keeps Vazquez off the field another 40 games.

 

 

 

[DJL44]

7 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Stop it. 

Jeffers at CATCHER. 

Catcher. 120 games.

It's been done, and nobody died.

And it keeps Vazquez off the field another 40 games.

I think you have two options

1) Jeffers at catcher for 80 games and DH for 60. Vazquez C for 80 games. Larnach DH for 100 games.

2) Jeffers at catcher for 120 games (and his offense will likely suffer), Vazquez C for 40 games. Larnach DH for 120 games, Margot at DH for 40 games.

I don't think it is clear at all that option 2 is better than option 1. That's 60 games of Jeffers at DH you're trading off for 40 games of Margot and 20 games of Larnach at DH. That's trading a .400 OPS at C for a .500 OPS at DH. Plus, you're messing with the formula that has made Jeffers the most productive member of the entire team.

When Lewis is back and they can have Miranda be the RH DH then I could see using Jeffers more exclusively at C.

[tony&rodney]

6 hours ago, rv78 said:

To some extent I respectfully disagree. Margot, Santana, Correa, even extending an unreliable Buxton were all done with defense in mind. Add Gallo to that equation last year............ because his bat says he should've retired a long time ago. Plus this FO has been drafting or trading heavy for SS for years and SS are known for their defensive talent .... Lewis, Lee, Martin, Miller not to mention the later round picks. If they are drafting and trading specifically for bats and we now have players that can't hit then there is another aspect of the game they are trying to do that is missing or fundamentally wrong, because it isn't working. As I said in another article, most players need consistant playing time to be consistantly good. Rocco is consistantly platooning leftys and rightys based on pitchers faced and with that there is no consistancy of playing time for the Twins hitters. Why constantly do it when it doesn't work? Only a Manager that is blind, stubborn, or mentally incompetant would. There's the problem.

Naturally, we will view  players differently on occasions. Buxton and Correa were both drafted, signed , and developed as premier athletes and maintain obvious defensive value. Lewis, Lee, and Martin are all seen as offense first baseball players who could possibly be good defenders in time. Lewis is the best athlete but Lee is ahead of the other two defensively but still not anywhere near Correa level. Guys like Margot and Santana have had fine careers but it is just polite to be positive about their skills at this time. There is nothing wrong with the respect these veterans receive but they are not really above average any longer despite all attempts by our broadcasters and fans to view each as still strong gloves. Gallo? He was once a slugger worth avoiding, but the days of Gallo playing decent baseball are in the past by several seasons.

We can even look at their minor league system to see some weaknesses with playing in the field. Schobel, Ross, Keaschall, and others are a little weak with the glove. There are some who look decent though and I'm not down on the Twins system, but rather suggesting that the focus for the organization has rather pointedly been bat oriented.

Hey, I still hope the Twins win the World Series this year but when a team drafts guys like Rooker, Kirilloff, Wallner, Larnach, etc. it is not with the idea that they will be stellar in the field. 

You may have a point with the consistency issue of playing in one position. I'm not sure about this element.

[Fezig]

12 hours ago, Karbo said:

Wow, hitting is bad, fielding is bad, even the pitching has been bad lately. Looks a lot like a total system failure!

Time for a system reset. From the top down. 

[Seth Stohs]

MIranda has been healthy and I would say he's looked just fine at third base this year. 

I'm comfortable with Castro in LF, CF, 3B, SS... no worries there. 

And, it's impossible to believe that Martin has enough innings to be that low. Kinda destroys my confidence in these defensive stats. Not saying he's been good, but he's certainly not bad out there. If he had played short, maybe. 

[IndianaTwin]

7 hours ago, USAFChief said:

I believe one fundamental issue with defense in this organization is their belief that anyone can play anywhere, any time. Move guys around willy nilly, including in the minors. Infield to outfield, vice versa. Nobody ever learns a position.

Pick a spot, play it every day in the minors. Learn it.  

I agree, to an extent. 

But, what are you going to do when you've only got four bench spots, one of which is reserved for the backup catcher? Guys have to play multiple positions.

In reality...

• Jeffers, Vazquez, Julien, Miranda, Correa, Buxton and Kepler (and likely Lewis) only play one position.
• Farmer, Larnach, Margot and Martin have almost exclusively played two positions, with the latter three being two outfield spots. You could list Wallner as playing two spots when he was up, but he was really a LF who played some RF when Kepler was hurt. 
• Kirilloff has played two outfield spots and 1b, but half his starts have been in left. He's really a LF and backup 1B who played some RF when Kepler was hurt.
• Castro is really the only person who has moved around a lot, splitting time between 3B, SS, LF and CF, but most of his starts at 3B, SS and CF have been as an injury replacement. The intent wasn't for him to play much at any of those three spots, but fortunately, he's been able to.

In terms of the minors, I suspect you're especially referring to Martin.

• In 2021, it looks like Toronto was trying to decide whether he was a SS or CF, since he split time evenly. The Twins did the same after they acquired him.
• In 2022, the Twins tried to focus on SS. with 70 games at SS and 9 in the OF. That was at a time when they didn't have Correa signed for the future and Lewis was injured most of the year.
• In 2023, they had Correa signed long-term and they decided Martin wasn't a shortstop. They slid him down the defensive spectrum in terms of the infield to play half his games at 2B, which makes sense when you are thinking you may trade/non-tender Polanco and you aren't sure whether Julien is the long-term answer. But you hope Julien is the answer and you also have Lee and Miranda in addition to Lewis, so you use him the outfield. In the outfield, he split time between LF and CF, but that makes sense when you aren't sure how many games you're going to get from Buxton. You hope Martin doesn't have to play CF in the majors, but you want to be covered in case you need him there. And if you don't need him in CF because Buxton is healthy and you have Castro as the backup, then you want to get Martin some time in LF in case that's the only spot available.
• In 2024, from what we've seen, they've given up on him as an infielder. He's played both CF and LF, but his CF starts were mostly as backup to Castro when Buxton was out or as backup to Buxton when Castro was needed at SS for Correa. At best, Martin was intended to be the third string CF. In actuality, they wanted him to be fourth string, after Margot as well, but that hasn't happened.  

So yeah, they haven't committed to him playing a specific spot, but they almost couldn't. Had they done so and guessed wrong, they aren't covered in another spot. And with such a short bench, every team is going to need a Castro, so it makes sense to try grooming someone for that role. (Said another way, if Castro goes down, who gets his multi-position role?) 

I've only heard the radio and read the TD versions of Martin. I haven't seen him like you have. Frankly, it seems like he's never going to hit enough to be a regular, so focusing on one position wouldn't have been helpful unless he's going to be a Gold Glover. I don't think he was ever seen as that, even if he focused on one spot. Instead, being a utility guy is his most likely opportunity for success.

But from what I've heard and seen, I'm not sure that's even realistic. I assume the Twins are intending for the Lewis/Julien/Lee/Kirilloff/Larnach/Wallner group to make Martin irrelevant. Unfortunately, they haven't done that yet and injuries have happened, so we've been stuck with more Martin than intended/hoped for. 

I hope we don't see any more of Martin. That's not because I have anything against him, I just hope that guys stay reasonably healthy and perform even at the midrange of their expectations. If they do, I don't see a spot for Martin. Even at his best, he seems like a Niko Goodrum. 

(Sorry -- that got much longer than intended.)

  

[ashbury]

8 hours ago, USAFChief said:

Move guys around willy nilly,

Willi Nilli.

C'mon Chief, it was right there.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Quote

Ranking the Top 5 Worst Minnesota Twins Defenders in 2024

Wasn’t there a list of ‘honorable mentions’ we could also disparage? This thread had such potential. 🙂

I’ll just say that Kirilloff belongs at first base, not in the outfield. He has not been great at first base recently either, that I’ve seen, but first base is his position.

It’s probably too late but I’d like to see the team show more confidence in some of their young guys and give them run as full time players. Kirilloff seems like a guy who would respond well to that. It looks like he has overcome his wrist issues and we should be glad about that. See if we can lock him in, instead of hiding him on the bench every time a lefty comes around. 

The obsession with platoon splits is ridiculous too but I will save that for the ‘Rocco’s Top 5 Platoon Split Nightmares’ article. It’s amazing the guy gets any sleep at all.

[NYCTK]

18 hours ago, USAFChief said:

Stop it. 

Jeffers at CATCHER. 

Catcher. 120 games.

It's been done, and nobody died.

And it keeps Vazquez off the field another 40 games.

This makes sense if we had a DH option we had to get ABs. But Vazquez at C and Jeffers at DH is as valuable as Jeffers at C and Kiriloff at DH. If not more. 

[NYCTK]

13 hours ago, Seth Stohs said:

And, it's impossible to believe that Martin has enough innings to be that low. Kinda destroys my confidence in these defensive stats. Not saying he's been good, but he's certainly not bad out there. If he had played short, maybe. 

He's been pretty bad from my eye test. Not a butcher, but his defense opened the flood gates in a tie game against Seattle. 

[Schmoeman5]

14 hours ago, Seth Stohs said:

MIranda has been healthy and I would say he's looked just fine at third base this year. 

I'm comfortable with Castro in LF, CF, 3B, SS... no worries there. 

And, it's impossible to believe that Martin has enough innings to be that low. Kinda destroys my confidence in these defensive stats. Not saying he's been good, but he's certainly not bad out there. If he had played short, maybe. 

Mr. Stoh. I'm pretty sure you watch a lot of baseball. But I never look at defensive metrics. Castro has not looked good at SS LF or CF. Does he have the physical tools? Yes. Yet to say no worries. Really? His defense has been terrible. Martin? His has been even worse. I'm not a MLB manager. But I can see. Martin can play 2nd and Castro an OK 3rd. That's it. I wish fans would watch and be unbiased in their assessment of what they're really seeing. 

[RpR]

14 hours ago, Seth Stohs said:

MIranda has been healthy and I would say he's looked just fine at third base this year. 

I'm comfortable with Castro in LF, CF, 3B, SS... no worries there. 

And, it's impossible to believe that Martin has enough innings to be that low. Kinda destroys my confidence in these defensive stats. Not saying he's been good, but he's certainly not bad out there. If he had played short, maybe. 

Martin is not even an average fielder at this point; he needs to stay in AAA until he improves or stay there always.

[USAFChief]

8 hours ago, NYCTK said:

This makes sense if we had a DH option we had to get ABs. But Vazquez at C and Jeffers at DH is as valuable as Jeffers at C and Kiriloff at DH. If not more. 

I agree they'd be better off with an actual hitter at DH, but I'd rather have Kirilloff (or basically anyone) and Jeffers in the lineup than Vazquez and Jeffers. Trading out Vazquez for Kirilloff is an easy choice.

There's nothing all that valuable about Vazquez's defense, if that's what you're shooting for.

[stringer bell]

Several topics here. 

1) Keirsey Jr. is the bright, shiny object at St. Paul right now. I suspect he's most like Andrew Stevenson, except that he has no major league experience. That said (and this thread is about defense), he is probably the best defensive option not named Byron Buxton in the Twins' system.

2) Austin Martin is where he needs to be right now--getting experience in the outfield and raking at Triple A. Injuries have put Martin at a point where he is an "old" prospect without a defined position. If he can show top of the order on-base skills and abilities and be an elite base runner/stealer, he could be a regular. Otherwise, he's a "utility" player without a lot of utility (second base, left field and stretched in center). He hasn't put together his skill set to be even an average defender but the skills are there to be better than what he's shown.

3) Willi Castro should have been considered for a Gold Glove as a utility player last year IMHO. He was very good in left field and third base (where he'd previously hardly played) and satisfactory in center last year. This year, he's been called on to play shortstop and center in the absence of Correa and Buxton and has shown why he's not a big league regular at those positions. Playing Castro in center once a week is okay, but playing him there for five or six games a week isn't optimum.

4) Alex Kirilloff isn't a great outfielder, has never been projected to be a good outfielder and his eventual position has been pegged at first base. It's nice to have the versatility of having a first baseman that "can play" outfield, but having AK get 90% of his defensive reps as an outfielder don't serve him well. As a first baseman, I watched Kirilloff in ST work at the gateway and I thought he looked excellent as a 1B. Justin Morneau said the exact same thing on one of the broadcasts this year. I've always thought Kirilloff would be an elite hitter and that plus defense would be a bonus. So far we've gotten neither with a few glimpses of what is possible. Morneau has frequently pointed out the advantages a left handed first baseman provided and Kirilloff is a lefty. I'd like to see what he could do with an extended run at first base.

5) We don't know if Jeffers would hold up as a more regular catcher. I think we are at a point where that chance should be taken. Vázquez has given the Twins next to nothing as an offensive player.