Simeon Woods Richardson: The Latest Testament to the Minnesota Twins Pitching Pipeline

[Dman]

I don't know.  Pipeline to me means you have connected pipes from the lower levels of your org to the MLB level where you are developing starting pitching.  If you want to include Pablo and Gray and Ryan who essentially were already developed then I don't think pipeline is really the word to use.  Just say the Twins have found ways to field a good rotation. 

When this concept first came out it was related to Falvey coming onboard to create better pitching development throughout the system and at the time it intimated that pipeline mainly meant draft and develop.  Sure if they traded for some young arm at A ball or below that would count IMO as well but much beyond that and most of the development has already come from another org.

Sure the Twins continue to develop arms at the MLB level. Pablo and Ryan and all the rotation arms are constantly looking for ways to improve.  All teams do this with varying degree's of success.  Also not sure how that development relates to pipeline as the pipeline is what feeds your MLB team.  Players that are already there aren't in the pipeline anymore they have arrived. So they are out of the pipeline.

To me pipeline is mainly building via draft and develop so that you don't have to trade for pitching as it is expensive to trade for good pitching.  If you are mainly trading for your pitching "pipeline" isn't the right word IMO it should be trades are the way to get developed pitching outside the org that can't develop it on its own.

 

[TwinsDr2021]

44 minutes ago, JDubs said:

It's weird how people discount pitchers traded for as part of the pipeline.

Who is doing this? The title of the article is - "The Latest Testament to the Minnesota Twins Pitching Pipeline"

and the first line of the article is - "They brought in Derek Falvey to create a reliable pipeline of young pitching, and this week has brought confirmation that the project is succeeding. "

I don't see people complaining about the FO and the job they are doing with the major league roster, I see people commenting on the article and how it was written.

Then look at @USAFChief post, I believe the comments are based on the article not at the current state of the Twins!

[bean5302]

47 minutes ago, CCHOF5yearstoolate said:

Joe Ryan was a question mark if he'd even stick in a major league rotation when they traded for him. 14th in the Rays organization and below multiple pitchers who have not sniffed the majors.

Yes, he was in AAA, but the Twins should definitely get credit for developing him into a #2/3 and helping him to find what were previously elusive secondaries to complement the funky fastball. 

He has not been a #2-3. Ryan has been a #4.
Career ERA / FIP / xFIP coming into this year? 4.05 / 4.01 / 4.01

For playoff caliber teams
Ace = 0.00-3.40
#2 = 3.41-3.69
#3 = 3.70-3.94
#4 = 3.95-4.19 <--- Joe Ryan
#5 = 4.20-4.49
Something like that.

[jmlease1]

having a pipeline doesn't necessarily mean that all your starters are homegrown and that you're pumping out a new star pitcher every year. What it does mean is that you're consistently creating options for your team and having organizational depth available to you that can be reasonably expected to perform when called on, and we're seeing more of that now. It's hardly a completed project (it's never "complete", right?) but I'm feeling better about our prospect levels and pitching development than I did previously.

I look back to where we were on the rotation 5-6 years ago and we were not only hoping for career years out of guys, but were filling in slots out of the bargain bin or throwing everyone into the fire to hope that we could cobble together enough innings. The prospects weren't that highly rated and were falling off the radar by the time they hit AAA and we were all talking ourselves into these guys being good enough (Gonsalves, Stewart, fernando Romero, Mejia, etc). we had 16 guys get starts in 2018. In 2021 we were still hoping JA Happ or Matt Shoemaker had something in the tank and again had 16 guys make starts.

I'm a lot happier with a rotation where no one is over 30, we have a guy like SWR ready to go if a Varland falters, with someone like Festa available if Varland falters again in his next opportunity. We have guys like Raya, Matthews, and Ohl in AA right now...and it's not a total disaster that Lewis hasn't pitched yet this season.

[Fat Calvin]

I don't see much of a pipeline of starting pitchers coming through the minor leagues.  We got Varland who's starting to pitch a little better, but beyond him, who is there?  Festa?  He hasn't done much this year.  Who else? Raya?  He hasn't done much either.  Everyone else is hurt, Cantarino, for the umteenth time, the knuckleballer, Lewis.  He just went on the 60 day IL.  I guess Zebby's pitching pretty good.  This doesn't seem like much of a pipeline to boast about.  It's not exactly flowing.

[Road trip]

3 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

He has not been a #2-3. Ryan has been a #4.
Career ERA / FIP / xFIP coming into this year? 4.05 / 4.01 / 4.01

For playoff caliber teams
Ace = 0.00-3.40
#2 = 3.41-3.69
#3 = 3.70-3.94
#4 = 3.95-4.19 <--- Joe Ryan
#5 = 4.20-4.49
Something like that.

That's an awfully high standard.  Plenty of teams will make the playoffs with less than that.  Rangers last year, top 5 starters for most of the year only had one guy with a FIP under 4 (Eovaldi).  They did add Montgomery late which certainly helped.  Their season turned out ok...

Ryan is a solid enough starter.  Not an ace, but a guy who is part of the rotation on any MLB team lucky enough to have him.  Call him a 2, a 3, a 4, whatever... just give him the ball every 5 days and he will put you in a position to win more often than not.

Regarding the "pipeline", sure, I wish there were more guys ready in the minors, but the caliber of Twins mlb pitching is so much better now than it was a decade ago.

 

 

[Dman]

3 minutes ago, jmlease1 said:

having a pipeline doesn't necessarily mean that all your starters are homegrown and that you're pumping out a new star pitcher every year. What it does mean is that you're consistently creating options for your team and having organizational depth available to you that can be reasonably expected to perform when called on, and we're seeing more of that now. It's hardly a completed project (it's never "complete", right?) but I'm feeling better about our prospect levels and pitching development than I did previously.

I look back to where we were on the rotation 5-6 years ago and we were not only hoping for career years out of guys, but were filling in slots out of the bargain bin or throwing everyone into the fire to hope that we could cobble together enough innings. The prospects weren't that highly rated and were falling off the radar by the time they hit AAA and we were all talking ourselves into these guys being good enough (Gonsalves, Stewart, fernando Romero, Mejia, etc). we had 16 guys get starts in 2018. In 2021 we were still hoping JA Happ or Matt Shoemaker had something in the tank and again had 16 guys make starts.

I'm a lot happier with a rotation where no one is over 30, we have a guy like SWR ready to go if a Varland falters, with someone like Festa available if Varland falters again in his next opportunity. We have guys like Raya, Matthews, and Ohl in AA right now...and it's not a total disaster that Lewis hasn't pitched yet this season.

I agree with you.  I think our pitching development is much better.  Probably better than it ever has been and this FO has identified and brought in good starting pitching.  Pipeline can be defined anyway a person wants to define it and I get that, but I think if you are being honest draft and develop should be the largest part of it otherwise why keep this FO or group that looks for and develops talent if they aren't successful at it?  I could be GM and fail to draft and develop just as easily as they can.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I think for most fans who just want to be a fan and cheer on the Twins, then no, it probably doesn’t matter how your team acquires its pitchers.

Otherwise, yes it might be worthwhile to think about scouting and how pitching is acquired. Trades and free agency are far more risky and expensive than the amateur draft. 

 

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, Major League Ready said:

What percentage of RPs are failed starters? 

Like 100%. I agree that producing a steady supply of competent relief pitching is key to competing on a low budget.

[DJL44]

23 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

He has not been a #2-3. Ryan has been a #4.
Career ERA / FIP / xFIP coming into this year? 4.05 / 4.01 / 4.01

For playoff caliber teams
Ace = 0.00-3.40
#2 = 3.41-3.69
#3 = 3.70-3.94
#4 = 3.95-4.19 <--- Joe Ryan
#5 = 4.20-4.49
Something like that.

Looking at pitching wins above average Joe Ryan has 1.1 - just slightly above average for 4 seasons. Slightly above average has to equal at least a #3 starter. Your scale does not match up with actual league performance - it would say that 2/3 of starting pitchers are below average.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

1 hour ago, IndianaTwin said:

For example, Cleveland used trades as part of the "pipeline" Falvey was considered to be a part of.

When Falvey came over from Cleveland, it was very exciting. Cleveland had Kluber and some other guys, picked up Andrew Miller, and turned Cody Allen into a top closer. Maybe we thought Falvey could do the same thing here.

When Falvey came over from Cleveland, nobody had even heard of Shane Bieber yet—and now Bieber is a washed up veteran already on his way out to make room for the new guys. 🙂

[arby58]

2 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

I really like and hope SWR continues to improve and becomes a main stay in the Twins rotation for years to come. But lets be real here, he has faced Det, White Sox (2) and Seattle, 3 of the worst 8  hitting teams in the league, lets let him settle in before anointing him a MLB starter ( I would hope we would have learned that from Varland)

 Both Detroit and Seattle have winning records, and both have scored plenty of runs in games with the Twins, so I'm not entirely buying this point (granted, Chicago is a different story). BTW, in two starts in St. Paul, Varland has pitched pretty well - 12 IP, 1 earned run, 13 Ks, 1 walk, 0.67 WHIP. There is certainly hope that he will be back and a competitive starter for the Twins. 

[TwinsDr2021]

2 minutes ago, arby58 said:

 Both Detroit and Seattle have winning records, and both have scored plenty of runs in games with the Twins, so I'm not entirely buying this point (granted, Chicago is a different story). BTW, in two starts in St. Paul, Varland has pitched pretty well - 12 IP, 1 earned run, 13 Ks, 1 walk, 0.67 WHIP. There is certainly hope that he will be back and a competitive starter for the Twins. 

Det OPS - 23rd - .662

CWS OPS - 30th - .598

Sea OPS - 24th - .667

do you like BA better, 23rd, 25th, 29th,  or maybe you like K's better 1st, 7th, 15th, or maybe OBP 22nd, 22nd, 30th,  or maybe SLG 21st, 23rd, 30th.

You may not buy it the the facts and stats are what they are.

And wonderful a 26 year old doing well in AAA, I hope Varland get things figured out but until he does, it don't me a thing.

[CCHOF5yearstoolate]

36 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

He has not been a #2-3. Ryan has been a #4.
Career ERA / FIP / xFIP coming into this year? 4.05 / 4.01 / 4.01

For playoff caliber teams
Ace = 0.00-3.40
#2 = 3.41-3.69
#3 = 3.70-3.94
#4 = 3.95-4.19 <--- Joe Ryan
#5 = 4.20-4.49
Something like that.

Jose Berrios has a 4.00 ERA since 2021. Jose Urquidy has a 3.96. Those are #4 starters too?

[arby58]

3 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Det OPS - 23rd - .662

CWS OPS - 30th - .598

Sea OPS - 24th - .667

do you like BA better, 23rd, 25th, 29th,  or maybe you like K's better 1st, 7th, 15th, or maybe OBP 22nd, 22nd, 30th,  or maybe SLG 21st, 23rd, 30th.

You may not buy it the the facts and stats are what they are.

And wonderful a 26 year old doing well in AAA, I hope Varland get things figured out but until he does, it don't me a thing.

In 3 games against the Twins, Seattle has scored 14 runs (4.7 runs a game)  - Richardson was charged with none of them. In 7 games against the Twins, Detroit has scored 32 runs (also 4.7 runs a game), and Richardson was charged with 1 of them. You can play with cumulative statistics all you want, but those teams have had plenty of offense against the Twins - except practically none with Richardson is pitching. 

[Rod Carews Birthday]

51 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

He has not been a #2-3. Ryan has been a #4.
Career ERA / FIP / xFIP coming into this year? 4.05 / 4.01 / 4.01

For playoff caliber teams
Ace = 0.00-3.40
#2 = 3.41-3.69
#3 = 3.70-3.94
#4 = 3.95-4.19 <--- Joe Ryan
#5 = 4.20-4.49
Something like that.

Or maybe not exactly like that.  Those ERA targets are placed pretty low.  Last year's league average pitcher had a 4.28 ERA.

So. . . there are 30 MLB teams.  Each of them have five starters.  That's 150 starting pitchers.  You're telling me that you would take 90 of those 150 starters before you would take Joe Ryan?  That seems pretty ridiculous to me.  Maybe (maybe!) you could argue that you would take 60 of them before you would take him, but even that seems like a stretch to me and that would at least make him a number three.  I would argue that calling him a number two might be debatable but it isn't crazy either.

[LyleCole]

3 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

I will say this read like a article where somebody requested, go write an article and try to convince the reader that the Twins have a pitching pipeline.

I really like Joe Ryan, the Twins traded for a major league ready starter who at times has been amazing and at times not. It was an amazing trade regardless of how Ryan's future goes. But it is weird to include him in the pipeline topic and leave out Gray, Lopez and Maeda (maybe even Paddack) for example both were also traded for and both were also MLB ready pitchers.

To be honest I generally don't include relief pitchers in teams pipeline, mostly because the best relief pitchers are former starters that didn't make it for whatever reason, then harness a couple of those pitches into much shorter times and succeed and generally every team does this to different levels of success. 

I really like and hope SWR continues to improve and becomes a main stay in the Twins rotation for years to come. But lets be real here, he has faced Det, White Sox (2) and Seattle, 3 of the worst 8  hitting teams in the league, lets let him settle in before anointing him a MLB starter ( I would hope we would have learned that from Varland)

IMO - Ober is the starting pitching pipe line as of 5/9/24, with that said this FO has done a pretty good job of bringing in starter pitchers have having them do well. (minus 2022)

Pretty much what I was thinking.  Maybe my definition of "pipeline" is a bit different. To me that refers to a process were the team drafts and develops players for their major league roster.  I thought that is the standard definition, but it certainly isn't in the Twins case.  

If you look at the Twins pitching staff just 4 of them were drafted and developed by the Twins:  Bailey Ober, Griffin Jax, Cole Sands, and Kody Funderburk.  Of those four, I would argue only two (Ober and Jax) have truly established themselves in their roles.  Sands and Funderburke are fringe level relievers, although Sands has had reasonable effectiveness as a converted starter this season.

The strength of this team has not been drafting and developing pitching prospects, although I would argue that since their first draft (the Royce Lewis Draft) they havent really emphasized developing pitching at the top of the draft.  Since the 2017 draft, outside of Centorino and Prielipps who both have major injuries and Charlie Soto (2023 draft pick), they have traded every other pitching draft choice selected in the first 3 rounds (all in 2021 Chase Petty, Steve Jaijar, Cade Povich).  Top of the draft pitching isn't a priority and they appear to see these choices as trade assets rather than pipeline development.

The strength of this front office era has been making trades that brought in quality veterans and selecting very good hitters (although a weakness in this organization might be its training staff who cannot keep their star players on the damn field).  IF we ever get a full season of a healthy Byron Buxton and Royce Lewis it will be a miracle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

One potentially valuable knock-on effect from promoting SWR is undercovering Varland's highest-and-best use.  Varland can kill it for once through the order.  He has the potential to be Duran-like for one inning.  And the bullpen has taken recent hits.  Bringing Louie back to the 'pen is a win-win.

[CCHOF5yearstoolate]

8 minutes ago, Rod Carews Birthday said:

Or maybe not exactly like that.  Those ERA targets are placed pretty low.  Last year's league average pitcher had a 4.28 ERA.

So. . . there are 30 MLB teams.  Each of them have five starters.  That's 150 starting pitchers.  You're telling me that you would take 90 of those 150 starters before you would take Joe Ryan?  That seems pretty ridiculous to me.  Maybe (maybe!) you could argue that you would take 60 of them before you would take him, but even that seems like a stretch to me and that would at least make him a number three.  I would argue that calling him a number two might be debatable but it isn't crazy either.

Of the 104 qualified pitchers since 2021 there are:

27 Aces (26%)

17 #2s (17.3%)

12 #3s (11.5%)

15 #4s (14.4%)

18 #5s (17.3%)

17 replacement level (16.3%)

If we lower the IP threshold to 200 there are 157 eligible starters and it breaks down to

20.4% Aces, 12.7% #2s, 9.6% #3s, 12.1% #4s, 23.6% #5s, 23.6% replacement

[wabene]

1 hour ago, bean5302 said:

The Twins did not "develop" Joe Ryan. He's been largely the same pitcher as he was when they got him. He was a MLB-ready pitcher with an excellent fastball and questionable breaking/offspeed stuff. He's the same as he was. The Twins have tinkered here and there with Ryan, changing his pitch mix

When the Twins got Ryan he was throwing 4 seam fastballs 60% of the time and now that number is in the 40's. They have had him try multiple pitches, he didn't even have the splitter when they got him. Developmental success.

 

1 hour ago, bean5302 said:

The Twins may have stumbled into a recipe for success with SWR, but it took them years to get it done on a pitcher who was acquired and was thought to be near MLB ready at the time

He was a 20 year old rushed into AA that was so ready he wasn't even used in the Olympics.

Yes it's been fits and starts, but development nonetheless.

1 hour ago, bean5302 said:

Cleveland was known for great pitching, and while that pitching didn't necessarily come from a draft/development pipeline model, young, effective, cost controlled starting pitching was the hallmark of the franchise, and it doesn't take a genius to connect the dots.

This is a creative way to keep the pitching pipeline definition in line with your desires. 

Bottom line the vaunted Cleveland pitching pipeline is littered with pitchers acquired in many ways.

They did identify, acquire and develop them which fits my definition.

[TwinsDr2021]

26 minutes ago, arby58 said:

In 3 games against the Twins, Seattle has scored 14 runs (4.7 runs a game)  - Richardson was charged with none of them. In 7 games against the Twins, Detroit has scored 32 runs (also 4.7 runs a game), and Richardson was charged with 1 of them. You can play with cumulative statistics all you want, but those teams have had plenty of offense against the Twins - except practically none with Richardson is pitching. 

Seattle and Detroit have both played 37 games this year, so by all means totally discount 34 and 30 games. Not sure, but are you saying the Twins staff is the one that isn't very good?

Varland had a 3 games stretch against Houston, LAA and SD last year would we ignore all his other starts as well.

It is like you didn't even read what I wrote and piped to defend something that didn't need defending and then did it with out any facts to back it up? When in reality this article was about the Twins Latest Testament to the youth pitching pipeline.

Here is what I wrote to remind you - But lets be real here, he has faced Det, White Sox (2) and Seattle, 3 of the worst 8  hitting teams in the league, lets let him settle in before anointing him a MLB starter ( I would hope we would have learned that from Varland)

 

 

 

[Fire Dan Gladden]

All of this debate about "pipeline" :  the word, what it means, institutional depth, etc...  There are some questions I am curious about:

1) Across the league, what is the % of home-grown pitching talent currently on each teams roster?  Probably broken down by: drafted, acquired as a MiLB, acquired as a MLB, signed as a FA.

2) Is the depth argument about MLB ready pitchers in the minors, or AAAA replacement pitchers ready to step in due to injury?  I would wager few to no MLB teams have anything of quality waiting in the minors except for untested prospects (hyped or not) or prospect projects (like Varland).

3) What are the expectations for an "acceptable pipeline"?  Volume (i.e. constantly pumping out SP3), quality (getting and SP1/SP2 every year), a combination of both?  Drafting or acquiring? A zillion other factors? (Yes this a hugely ambiguous question)

Personally, I don't really care.  I was mad they didn't sign Gray or Maeda.  I did not want 3/5 of the rotation to be question marks, with no real options behind them.  The returns thus far are mixed and I will wait to see how it plays out...  Every year is different, I just want the team to be in the mix every year.

[Parker Hageman]

Quote

Coming into the 2024 season, though, Woods Richardson and the coaching staff were bullish. The velocity numbers in Spring Training were up from 89-90 MPH the previous year to 93-94 MPH, after a tweak to his arm slot gave Woods Richardson the extra boost that had been missing. 

What I think is interesting about this change is that the Twins basically moved him back to his natural slot. It goes to the notion that he was coached out of it at some point in the minor leagues. 

 

[JD-TWINS]

2 hours ago, Dman said:

I am going to agree with others and say it premature to call SWR a success this early in.  I mean he owns 6.08 ERA in AAA this year so he hasn't been dominant everywhere.  Don't get me wrong I am super pumped by how well he is pitching at the MLB level and he has really helped the Twins get back in the race.  I hope he can keep this up, but adjustments will be made and we'll have to wait and see how he does once they are made.  

The Twins might be on the way to a pitching pipeline but right now Ober is the only real success story who was home grown.  We are still waiting on Varland and SWR to some degree.  It is hard to include pen arms as every org has a decent level of success with those types of arms.  Even Terry Ryan's group did well with developing those types of arms.

Maybe Varland and SWR work out long term.  Maybe Festa and Raya join them at some point.  There is a lot of  potential arms at High A right now that could be difference makers and If Canterino and Prielipp ever get healthy maybe they can be impact arms or maybe they will end up as just pen arms as well.  At any rate it still doesn't seem like much of a pipeline to me at this point in time,

Not personal here, general observations:

Canterino & Prielipp are WAY out on the fringe of being contributors, ever ……..IMO, they’re on a par with decent A ball guys when considering their potential to add value…….they don’t actually play/pitch!

SWR is going to have to throw more innings than was anticipated in January. If he holds up (regardless of AAA previous ERA, his stuff plays in MLB) I like the prospects of him being the 4th starter in Playoffs, when needed.

Paddack - Varland - (maybe Topa) added to Stewart - Jax - Duran - Sands - two of our 3 lefties in the Pen in October (9 relievers). This would be a lights out Pen capable of picking up a starter whenever needed.

Festa will certainly get a look to give guys a skipped turn as soon as June. Raya maybe up for a spot start or three in later July/August.

The idea that the organization should kick up a “good starter” every other year from the Pipeline is a tall order……,difficult to imagine. A team would continuously have 4 home grown “good starters” under their control at all times. My expectation might be 4 relievers from inside system on a staff as guys slip out of the running to be a starter for health reasons or other issues. Then maybe a reliable starter every 2-3 years from inside the system.

Now - forward in short-term….1) Ober is a guy. SWR was obtained, purposefully, at age 20 and is succeeding……2) he’s a guy. If Festa or Ryan work out by ‘26 & maybe Varland later this year or even in ‘25…….3) a third guy. The team is developing arms at a solid rate IMO.

Smoltz started outside of Atlanta, Maddux was obtained, Liebrandt was obtained, …….Glavine was 2nd round pick & Avery was 1st round pick. Seems normal to have a mix of how to put together a successful staff.

[Major League Ready]

1 hour ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Caring here the pipeline comes from, is that what people are saying or what you are reading into? I based my comments off the article, which IMO is trying to say this FO is producing pitchers though the minor leagues (since that is the players listed). Joe Ryan pitched 9 innings in the Twins minor league system and stepped into the rotation for good after that (The Twins should get credit for that)  I give the FO major props for the trade, it was an amazing trade. IMO isn't a whole lot different than Gray, Maeda, Lopez, and Paddack, which are also turning into or was a great trade. Last year and this year the FO has done a incredible job of filling the rotation and I don't care where they came from. I don't think anybody is expecting the Twins rotation to be completely homegrown or even pitchers like Duran and SWR who where acquired as minor league players, but I also think those two things are what people expect when you are talking about a pipeline.

As for relief pitchers isn't that the minimum expectation of every front office, sure there may not be many as good as Duran or there is, that is probably for a different conversation, but there are RP like Jax all over the major leagues.

I am not complaining about what this FO has done to fill a pitching staff or how they have done it, but this article wasn't about that it was about The Latest Testament to the Minnesota Twins Pitching Pipeline, which in 2024 could be considered mis-information.

I understand an agree that the Twins should not get credit for developing Joe Ryan although someone earlier in the thread pointed out that he was not exactly a top prospect so perhaps they get some credit for him succeeding at the ML level.  I think they have been mediocre in drafting and developing.  However, I don't think the pipeline should be defined in terms of players that were drafted.  The pipeline of talent should utilize every means available so I guess I disagree with the premise of the article and those who define the pipeline in terms of players we draft.

[TwinsDr2021]

Just now, Major League Ready said:

I understand an agree that the Twins should not get credit for developing Joe Ryan although someone earlier in the thread pointed out that he was not exactly a top prospect so perhaps they get some credit for him succeeding at the ML level.  I think they have been mediocre in drafting and developing.  However, I don't think the pipeline should be defined in terms of players that were drafted.  The pipeline of talent should utilize every means available so I guess I disagree with the premise of the article and those who define the pipeline in terms of players we draft.

100% agree they should get credit helping Ryan become the starter he is and the trade, but you are correct they didn't develop him. If people think that the pipeline is only about drafting player, than IMO they are wrong. All teams need to trade for young guys and develop them as well as drafting them (Gil, Alcala, SWR, Duran for example ) and possibly get guys that other teams see as relief pitchers and develop them into starters. If others want to say they used their pipeline (Petty) for example to shore up the major league roster, I think that would be a valid argument (Developing guys other teams see as viable pieces), I don't believe it is a sustainable long term strategy but can be a home run short term. Like I mentioned before this isn't a complaint on the Twins it is criticism of the article and its timing.

[Road trip]

I don't personally believe that a pitcher must be drafted in order to "pipeline-qualify", but the draft record hasn't been terrible.  They've hit on one or two good/useful pitchers every year that remain with the club:

2016: Jax
2017: Ober
2018: Sands, Funderburk, 
2019: Varland
2020: only 5 rounds, weird Covid draft, anything more recent is too soon to judge.

Meanwhile, they used a bunch of high picks to grab Lewis, Jeffers, Larnach, Julien, Miranda, Kirilloff, and Wallner.  

Sure, there have been some misses too, but I'm reluctant to complain too much about the draft and development record of this front office.  I've seen worse eras.

[arby58]

43 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Seattle and Detroit have both played 37 games this year, so by all means totally discount 34 and 30 games. Not sure, but are you saying the Twins staff is the one that isn't very good?

Varland had a 3 games stretch against Houston, LAA and SD last year would we ignore all his other starts as well.

It is like you didn't even read what I wrote and piped to defend something that didn't need defending and then did it with out any facts to back it up? When in reality this article was about the Twins Latest Testament to the youth pitching pipeline.

Here is what I wrote to remind you - But lets be real here, he has faced Det, White Sox (2) and Seattle, 3 of the worst 8  hitting teams in the league, lets let him settle in before anointing him a MLB starter ( I would hope we would have learned that from Varland)

A person who has to repeat their own argument isn't going to win many debates. My complaint with your perspective is it puts far too much emphasis on rank order of teams and not on outcomes. The Tigers have scored 149 runs in 37 games and the Mariners 138 in 37 games. That equates to 4.0 and 3.7 runs per game - hardly anemia compared to the 0 and 1 runs they scored in their outings against Richardson. 

Feel free to repeat yourself again if it will make you feel better.

[TwinsDr2021]

44 minutes ago, Road trip said:

I don't personally believe that a pitcher must be drafted in order to "pipeline-qualify", but the draft record hasn't been terrible.  They've hit on one or two good/useful pitchers every year that remain with the club:

2016: Jax
2017: Ober
2018: Sands, Funderburk, 
2019: Varland
2020: only 5 rounds, weird Covid draft, anything more recent is too soon to judge.

Meanwhile, they used a bunch of high picks to grab Lewis, Jeffers, Larnach, Julien, Miranda, Kirilloff, and Wallner.  

Sure, there have been some misses too, but I'm reluctant to complain too much about the draft and development record of this front office.  I've seen worse eras.

2015 – Moran, Stashak

2014 - Nick Burdi, Sam Clay, Jake Reed, John Curtiss, Trevor Hildenberger

2013 – Aaron Slegers

2012 – Berrios, Luke Bard, JT Chargois, Tyler Duffey, Taylor Rogers

Added a few years

[Riverbrian]

1. Do we have to sign free agents or trade from other organizations to fill out our pitching staff? If not... you have yourself a real nice pipeline.

2. If So... If we need to acquire pitching from outside the organization... How much does the degree of outside help needed compare to other organizations. 

3. Trades are not just outside help... they can work both ways. Gray was certainly not a pipeliner but it took someone in the pipeline in Chase Petty to acquire him. Maeda wasn't a pipeline production but Brusdar was. 

I look at the arms starting to come out of the system and it looks like we got some flow in the pipe.