Twins sign Jake Cave to 2022 contract for $800k

[Richie the Rally Goat]

28 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Is that all OF or was Cave actually average in CF? I always assumed he was well below average in center. 

Center Field! 2019-2021

[Brock Beauchamp]

37 minutes ago, Sconnie said:

Center Field! 2019-2021

[yeahyabetcha]

5 hours ago, Greglw3 said:

I'm growing weary of this. My dream of an outfield of Canha, Buxton, Kirilloff seems to be in danger! That would be a vastly improved OF. Mark Contreras deserves a chance as 4th OF. I’d signed the supremely dominant CF, Billy Hamilton as the 5th outfielder and Buxton insurance policy. No room for Jake Cave.

I see opening the season with Kepler, Buxton and Kirilloff as starters and Cave and Rooker as bench players.  Not horrible, and it doesn’t mean it has to be that way all season.

[saviking]

I am sick and tired of watching Cave and was disappointed we didn't try to trade him or release him. Guess we still could trade him before the season. 

With all the talent coming up I just don't see what they see in Cave ..

[Brock Beauchamp]

2 minutes ago, saviking said:

I am sick and tired of watching Cave and was disappointed we didn't try to trade him or release him. Guess we still could trade him before the season. 

With all the talent coming up I just don't see what they see in Cave ..

I don't get what they see in him but this contract isn't guaranteed. They can still cut Cave and only be out a portion of the $800k, I believe.

And in that case, he's not a terrible insurance policy but I'll be disappointed if he's on the roster when 26 head north to Minnesota at the end of March.

[Doctor Gast]

Cave was was an ok 4th OF especially with the aid of the juiced ball in 2019. But my biggest gripe about Cave is FO's delusion that he was a good replacement at CF. That blocked the path for any better substitution. Cave got the bulk of playing time ahead of Wade although Wade had a better glove and  eye. At SF, Wade got to prove himself as a clutch hitter, although SF didn't play him much in CF having 4 players ahead of him but got a lot of playing time at the corners and even a little at 1B.

LF was vacant this last ST and should've been wide open for anyone to win. Broxton had well excelled over Cave in every conceivable way but LF was handed over to Cave????. Some would debate that ST doesn't count. In this case LF was vacant it was most certainly should've count. Some may debate past stats, although stats can be useful to evaluate, stats can be twisted and if potential, factors and conditions (positive and negative) are not considered IMO they are useless. Here again like Wade, Broxton wasn't given the opportunity to prove himself on the MLB level.

Baddoo was left unprotected last off season because they thought wrongly  that we had plenty of depth at CF. Here we lost a great potential at CF. Now that Wade, Baddoo and most likely Broxton are gone and Celestino is not ready. By FO's delusion securing Cave, once again potentially blocking any attempts to obtain any adequate CF outside the organization. I can't trust this FO's ability to evaluate objectively, I'm afraid that if we trade Buxton (heaven forbid) Cave would be subjectively be promoted to CF. Cave should've been released as their 1st transaction instead of Colina. Their actions shows me that they have no ability to evaluate players which affects their negotiations in big trades, extensions and signing FAs and to see the need of the team. I mentioned last off season to let Levine go, I'm more adamantly advocating this now.

[jmlease1]

9 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I don't get what they see in him but this contract isn't guaranteed. They can still cut Cave and only be out a portion of the $800k, I believe.

And in that case, he's not a terrible insurance policy but I'll be disappointed if he's on the roster when 26 head north to Minnesota at the end of March.

Same. Feels like Jake Cave just got a scholarship for 2022. I get that he's been injured and assuming the last two season are reflective of his real ability is probably foolish. But Cave still feels eminently replaceable and it feels like he's going to get a roster spot on scholarship for his contract and "veteran-ness" rather than being one of the best 26.

Hope I'm wrong. It's a marginal move, but making bad choices on the margin still hurts and can lead to making bad calls on the bigger things.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

6 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

Cave was was an ok 4th OF especially with the aid of the juiced ball in 2019. But my biggest gripe about Cave is FO's delusion that he was a good replacement at CF. That blocked the path for any better substitution. Cave got the bulk of playing time ahead of Wade although Wade had a better glove and  eye. At SF, Wade got to prove himself as a clutch hitter, although SF didn't play him much in CF having 4 players ahead of him but got a lot of playing time at the corners and even a little at 1B.

LF was vacant this last ST and should've been wide open for anyone to win. Broxton had well excelled over Cave in every conceivable way but LF was handed over to Cave????. Some would debate that ST doesn't count. In this case LF was vacant it was most certainly should've count. Some may debate past stats, although stats can be useful to evaluate, stats can be twisted and if potential, factors and conditions (positive and negative) are not considered IMO they are useless. Here again like Wade, Broxton wasn't given the opportunity to prove himself on the MLB level.

Now that Wade and most likely Broxton are gone and Celestino is not ready. By FO's delusion secured Cave, once again potentially blocking any attempts to obtain an adequate CF outside the organization. I can't trust this FO's ability to evaluate objectively, I'm afraid that if we trade Buxton (heaven forbid) Cave would be subjectively be promoted to CF. Cave should've been released as their 1st transaction instead of Colina. Their actions shows me that they have no ability to evaluate players which affects their negotiations in big trades, extensions and signing FAs and to see the need of the team. I mentioned last off season to let Levine go, I'm more adamantly advocating this now.

Wade statistically speaking is almost exactly equal to Cave as a fielder.

in terms of hitting Wade’s cumulative wRC+ of 111 is better than Cave’s 94, but not a ton better. Cave also posted a 49 wRC+ in 21 as a lost injury season that weighs down his 94 cumulative.

they aren’t that different of players, statistically speaking.

im not thrilled with Cave either, and another Lefty outfielder has me scratching my head… but I don’t get the angst here

[Johnny Ringo]

This is plan B if Buck walks. What a depressing thought. Drinks are on me. 

[Five minute major]

After everything the FO has already invested in him regarding the initial trade and the various players not protected on the 40,  there is no way they are going to simply cut him loose as they look to save face.   And the more they invest in him, the more desperate they seem to be getting in hopes he turns in something.

 

 

[dxpavelka]

On 11/19/2021 at 10:59 PM, Rosterman said:

Well, another team could claim him if the Twins need to 40-man remove him. They would pay his salary.

 

He could pass thru waivers and be assigned to AAA baseball, still get paid. Kinda what the Rays did with Aaron Slegers. You keep them oin the team, less likely to be claimed. And the player gets paid mroe than a standard minor league free agency contract or a major/minor split.

 

Not sure if he could refuse an assignment. Still.....the Twins didn't need to give him a roster spot.

 

Is it true that he could be cut for a pro-rated salary in spring training?

 

 

Last year we lost Wade and Baddoo because we kept Cave. Or so we want to think. We also managed to sign Refsnyder, Garlick and Broxton, with two making the team and playing better than Cave, and one having a great spring but stunk at AAA. So there is no shortage of outfielders looking for work.

 

The Twins have Kerrigan and Contreras who could probably be decent 4th outfielders in a pinch, and they allowed Whitefield to walk away. They still have Rooker, Celestino and Larnach on the roster, and if they sign a shortstop have to figure out wants to play Arraez and Gordon.

 

Or, maybe Cave is just the retool replacement if the Twins trade away Buxton for a lot of prospects who won't need to be 40-man protected.

 

If they trade Buxton for prospects one of those prospects better be ready to play CF cuz I damn sure don't want to see cave (or Garlick or Refsnyder) playing there and I don't see any of our current other options (possible exception being Celestino taking a step forward) as being ready.

[dxpavelka]

5 minutes ago, Johnny Ringo said:

This is plan B if Buck walks. What a depressing thought. Drinks are on me. 

I question whether your bank account could handle the needed number of drinks.

 

[dxpavelka]

8 minutes ago, Sconnie said:

Wade statistically speaking is almost exactly equal to Cave as a fielder.

in terms of hitting Wade’s cumulative wRC+ of 111 is better than Cave’s 94, but not a ton better. Cave also posted a 49 wRC+ in 21 as a lost injury season that weighs down his 94 cumulative.

they aren’t that different of players, statistically speaking.

im not thrilled with Cave either, and another Lefty outfielder has me scratching my head… but I don’t get the angst here

You don't get the angst??   Here, let me clear it up for you:  Jake Cave.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

3 minutes ago, dxpavelka said:

You don't get the angst??   Here, let me clear it up for you:  Jake Cave.

Do you have any objective evidence that 800k is a bad contract for an average hitting, average fielding thoroughly Joe Bauers 4th outfielder? In what way will this maneuver impede the FO’s ability to acquire better players? Why is this bad?

[stringer bell]

17 minutes ago, Johnny Ringo said:

This is plan B if Buck walks. What a depressing thought. Drinks are on me. 

Buxton isn’t walking in 2022. I think the most likely internal replacement for Buxton is Martin. 

[Doctor Gast]

4 minutes ago, Sconnie said:

Wade statistically speaking is almost exactly equal to Cave as a fielder.

in terms of hitting Wade’s cumulative wRC+ of 111 is better than Cave’s 94, but not a ton better. Cave also posted a 49 wRC+ in 21 as a lost injury season that weighs down his 94 cumulative.

they aren’t that different of players, statistically speaking.

im not thrilled with Cave either, and another Lefty outfielder has me scratching my head… but I don’t get the angst here

Thank you Sconnie for bringing that out. If you read my entire comment, my point is FO's delusion of Cave's  ability to play CF blocks any player the chance to do a better job at subbing Buxton. I agree that Wade isn't much better than Cave at CF but Cave got the lion's share which prevented Wade from showing his true potential. I don't like either of them at CF and SF agreed w/ me because Wade was their 5th choice there. That shows what others rate Cave as a CF due to association.

[stringer bell]

3 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

Buxton isn’t walking in 2022. I think the most likely internal replacement for Buxton is Martin. 

To expand further, if Buxton is traded in the next eight months, the Twins are rebuilding. Martin is a top 5 Twins prospect who played CF more than SS at Wichita. If the Twins wouldn’t get a replacement center fielder in a Buxton trade, I expect the rebuilding Twins to give Martin the opportunity. 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

9 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

Thank you Sconnie for bringing that out. If you read my entire comment, my point is FO's delusion of Cave's  ability to play CF blocks any player the chance to do a better job at subbing Buxton. I agree that Wade isn't much better than Cave at CF but Cave got the lion's share which prevented Wade from showing his true potential. I don't like either of them at CF and SF agreed w/ me because Wade was their 5th choice there. That shows what others rate Cave as a CF due to association.

If you want other players to get reps at CF, why have them ride the pine in the bigs? Isn’t it better for Martin or Celestino to play every day in AA/AAA than not play in the bigs

[Doctor Gast]

35 minutes ago, Sconnie said:

If you want other players to get reps at CF, why have them ride the pine in the bigs? Isn’t it better for Martin or Celestino to play every day in AA/AAA than not play in the bigs

???????????????? I have no idea what you're talking about. I stated that Celestino isn't ready this year to sub CF. Even more so Martin. I said Cave blocks any outside the organization CF to be considered because of the FO's delusion. Maybe I didn't make myself clear or you still haven't completely read my 1st comment

[ashbury]

Does this contract give Cave any slight trade value, if and when a suitable replacement/improvement for backup CF is obtained?  Maybe it turns out this recent move is better for the team than just cutting him, when the time comes.

Dang, even when I'm grouchy about this team's immediate future, I can't help looking for rays of sunshine.

[Linus]

2 hours ago, ashbury said:

Does this contract give Cave any slight trade value, if and when a suitable replacement/improvement for backup CF is obtained?  Maybe it turns out this recent move is better for the team than just cutting him, when the time comes.

Dang, even when I'm grouchy about this team's immediate future, I can't help looking for rays of sunshine.

Good point. Maybe we can trade him to San Francisco for a reliever……uh never mind.

[Major League Ready]

On 11/19/2021 at 8:06 PM, bean5302 said:

I just... why? Is Jake Cave really better than Nick Gordon as a utility outfielder at this point?

I've defended Cave quite a bit in regard to giving him some leash, but it was obvious he's probably done by the end of last year. It's not only his results, but the metrics and batted ball data behind the results have been trending backwards the last couple years and the sample size of his struggles at the plate are getting big enough to take notice.

Jake Cave was a starter caliber CF in 2018, then a borderline utility infielder in 2019, then unplayable in 2020-2021.

Is he better than anyone as a utility player at this point?

[yeahyabetcha]

1 minute ago, Major League Ready said:

Is he better than anyone as a utility player at this point?

Yes.  He is better than Austudillo.

[RpR]

10 minutes ago, yeahyabetcha said:

Yes.  He is better than Austudillo.

Oh really, they played a similar number of games and even with Willians drop at the end of the year, his number are far better than Jake.

 

[yeahyabetcha]

5 minutes ago, RpR said:

Oh really, they played a similar number of games and even with Willians drop at the end of the year, his number are far better than Jake.

 

I take it you never saw him play defense 

[Brock Beauchamp]

7 minutes ago, yeahyabetcha said:

I take it you never saw him play defense 

Also, while I’m no Cave fan, he literally fractured his back. I’ll give him something of a pass on 2021. 

[RpR]

24 minutes ago, yeahyabetcha said:

I take it you never saw him play defense 

Willians is not an outfielder and Jake is not an infielder, at that neither numbers fielding are great though Willians did fine as a catcher and first baseman.

[USAFChief]

I'll take "indicators this was a bad signing for $1000, Alex."

 

"What is "can be released before ST ends and you won't owe him the entire $800k is the best justification for the signing anyone can come up with."

[yeahyabetcha]

59 minutes ago, RpR said:

Willians is not an outfielder and Jake is not an infielder, at that neither numbers fielding are great though Willians did fine as a catcher and first baseman.

We will just have to agree to disagree as to what “did just fine” means

[dxpavelka]

6 hours ago, Sconnie said:

Do you have any objective evidence that 800k is a bad contract for an average hitting, average fielding thoroughly Joe Bauers 4th outfielder? In what way will this maneuver impede the FO’s ability to acquire better players? Why is this bad?

He's a career .230 hitter.  Not sure what world that is average in.  And, no I have no evidence that $800k is a bad contract for a 4th OF  I DO, however, have a firm belief that having a .230 hitter as a 4th OF (or anywhere else you choose to put him.) is a recipe for another disappointing season in 2022.