Twins DH

[baul0010]

Is the Twins DH already on the roster?  I love watching Nelson Cruz, but we are going to jam up the pipeline of prospects if we keep Cruz.  

 

We are already paying Sano 10 Mil a year.  Why not move him to DH.  Let him focus of what he does best, MASH THE BASEBALL!  We could start getting Kirilloff set at First Base where he might be better defensively and also an upgrade over Sano.   

 

We could also use Kirilloff/Rooker/Sano combo in LF, 1st, and DH until Larnach is ready to step into LF.

 

But then again, I wouldn't mind watching Cruz for another year.    

[Brock Beauchamp]

There's little concern about a logjam now that Rosario is gone. That's one of three prospects for LF and there's a good chance the Twins have to cycle through them all to find a good fit.

 

I'm in favor of bringing back Cruz but only on a one year contract or a one + option contract, perhaps with a healthy $1-2m buyout in 2022.

[Physics Guy]

 

Is the Twins DH already on the roster?  I love watching Nelson Cruz, but we are going to jam up the pipeline of prospects if we keep Cruz.  

 

We are already paying Sano 10 Mil a year.  Why not move him to DH.  Let him focus of what he does best, MASH THE BASEBALL!  We could start getting Kirilloff set at First Base where he might be better defensively and also an upgrade over Sano.   

 

We could also use Kirilloff/Rooker/Sano combo in LF, 1st, and DH until Larnach is ready to step into LF.

 

But then again, I wouldn't mind watching Cruz for another year.    

I don't think this is an outrageous idea. I would not move Sano to DH full-time yet. He was passable/average at 1B in his first season.  Keep players in the field as long as you can. While I love having Cruz in the 3 spot in the order, I think rotating players through the DH spot to keep the healthy would be a wise option as well. Donaldson is still a stellar 3B, but putting him at DH every 4 days might help keep him in the lineup. Also, using a rotation of Kirilloff, Rooker and Cave at DH wouldn't be horrible either. We have options and aren't over a barrel in the Cruz negotiations. If he insists on more than $15M or two years it might be wise to move on. 

[baul0010]

I agree.  I'd rather not move Sano but like you said, he is mostly passable at first.  I would hope Kirilloff could be better then average at first.  I was wondering if letting Sano focus on hitting could help him prevent from going into week long slumps with insane strikeout numbers.  It worked out pretty well for David Ortiz.

[High heat]

I like the idea of rotating guys through the DH spot on paper but the game isnt played that way.  Some guys thrive on just focusing on hitting some guys think to much or get frustrated and need the field to stay engaged. 

 

Some of the twins issue is they have a lot of guys who are very similar( left handed hitting corner outfielder) who dont offer a lot different from each other.  Maybe they will find a utility man who can play everyday and fill in as well or maybe find a trade partner for a Cave or Wade and bring in someone who offers up another skill set.  

 

I just dont want to se Sano get injured and Rooker struggle or get injured and all we have is average left handed bats all over the place.  

[strumdatjaguar]

In today’s Strib, team brass stated it is considering using Donaldson sometimes at DH to reduce injury risk. Looks like No Nelly and a rotation instead at DH.

[RedBull34]

 

In today’s Strib, team brass stated it is considering using Donaldson sometimes at DH to reduce injury risk. Looks like No Nelly and a rotation instead at DH.

While it might be true, I suspect gamesmanship.  Trying to get Nelly to lower his price a bit.

[Shaitan]

Too many good players is never a problem. I don't believe in logjams.

 

Even in the rare case where a prospect is a sure thing, plans wills will suddenly change. See Mauer's rookie season...all 20 AB of it.

 

Make the prospects force their way onto the roster; don't hand it to them.

 

That said, this roster is built in a way that Cruz is not essential. They'd get by without him. But they'd be better with him.

[baul0010]

 

In today’s Strib, team brass stated it is considering using Donaldson sometimes at DH to reduce injury risk. Looks like No Nelly and a rotation instead at DH.

 

It seems Donaldson always gets hurt running the bases.  Shouldn't we DH him to keep his defense at 3rd base?

[Physics Guy]

 

In today’s Strib, team brass stated it is considering using Donaldson sometimes at DH to reduce injury risk. Looks like No Nelly and a rotation instead at DH.

Nelson Cruz played 120 games in 2019 and isn't getting younger. Maybe he plays 130, but he needs days off as well. Plenty of room to get Donaldson some games there as well.

[TopGunn#22]

I agree with Physics Guy.  

Cruz at his BEST will give you 120 games in a 162 game season.

And it's starting to look like they won't be playing 162 in 2021.

It's also looking like there is a STRONG push to make sure the N.L. adds the DH permanently.  

This "helps" Nellie's value, but you can't deny that he's probably good for 100-110 games tops next year.

We have young talent that can hit and WILL hit.  

However, the elephant in the room is that Cruz is our BEST hitter.  And it ain't even close.

The lineup is already down Rosario.  

This is why I keep suggesting the Twins trade Sano----so they can keep Cruz.

Nellie gives them one more GOOD year and there is a team & player option for year #2.

In the two years the Twins are without Rosario and Sano they will counter with Cruz and a full seasons from Donaldson.  

Plus, you're giving Kiriloff, Larnach and Rooker a year to figure things out with Studs like Cruz and Donaldson to take the pressure off them and show them the way.

Sano might hit a few BOMBS, but he's also going to strike out 180 times---minimum.  

Let the Colorado Rockies fill their hole at 1B and enjoy Sano's HR's.  They aren't contending anyway so let them deal with his K's as well.

The Twins need Cruz in their lineup in 2021 to build a bridge to 2022 when Kiriloff, Larnach and Rooker are vital pieces of the everyday lineup.  

Sano and Rosario were good at the traditional stats---HR's and RBI's.

But by every modern metric they are inefficient.  The lineup get's better eventually without them and WITH Kiriloff, Larnach and Rooker.

But you need Cruz to be that bridge.

[DocBauer]

I'm still betting on a 1yr deal with MAYBE some 2nd year option based on AB/PA and with incentives. The reality is, even with a unified DH, there is still a limited number of teams that want/need/can afford a bat only 41yr old DH. I think $18M is a no go. I think $12M-ish probably won't get it done. Betting $14-15M for 1yr gets it done and everyone is happy.

[specialiststeve]

 

It seems Donaldson always gets hurt running the bases.  Shouldn't we DH him to keep his defense at 3rd base?

 

He needs a ghost runner.....  

 

[RedBull34]

 

He needs a ghost runner.....

That or an understanding that he isn't 25 any more and might need to take it a little slower.

 

I'm sure it's not the straight line running that's injuring him, but rounding 3rd at full speed to go headfirst into home.

[baul0010]

 

That or an understanding that he isn't 25 any more and might need to take it a little slower.

 

I'm sure it's not the straight line running that's injuring him, but rounding 3rd at full speed to go headfirst into home.

 

I feel like the one that sticks out for me last year he was leaving the batter's box.  But, like you were saying, it's usually not running straight line when he's already up to speed.  I hope he stays healthy this year.  He is fun to watch.

[goulik]

 

I agree with Physics Guy.  

Cruz at his BEST will give you 120 games in a 162 game season.

And it's starting to look like they won't be playing 162 in 2021.

It's also looking like there is a STRONG push to make sure the N.L. adds the DH permanently.  

This "helps" Nellie's value, but you can't deny that he's probably good for 100-110 games tops next year.

We have young talent that can hit and WILL hit.  

However, the elephant in the room is that Cruz is our BEST hitter.  And it ain't even close.

The lineup is already down Rosario.  

This is why I keep suggesting the Twins trade Sano----so they can keep Cruz.

Nellie gives them one more GOOD year and there is a team & player option for year #2.

In the two years the Twins are without Rosario and Sano they will counter with Cruz and a full seasons from Donaldson.  

Plus, you're giving Kiriloff, Larnach and Rooker a year to figure things out with Studs like Cruz and Donaldson to take the pressure off them and show them the way.

Sano might hit a few BOMBS, but he's also going to strike out 180 times---minimum.  

Let the Colorado Rockies fill their hole at 1B and enjoy Sano's HR's.  They aren't contending anyway so let them deal with his K's as well.

The Twins need Cruz in their lineup in 2021 to build a bridge to 2022 when Kiriloff, Larnach and Rooker are vital pieces of the everyday lineup.  

Sano and Rosario were good at the traditional stats---HR's and RBI's.

But by every modern metric they are inefficient.  The lineup get's better eventually without them and WITH Kiriloff, Larnach and Rooker.

But you need Cruz to be that bridge.

Trade Sano to build your bridge to 2022? No, No, NO, NO, NO!!

 

We are in the window of winning and going for it now. We are not in Bridge Building mode anymore. Just, No!! We go out with a plan to win for the next few seasons and build bridges when we need to build bridges. We don't need bridges, we need Pennants, Trophies and Rings. Trade Sano? No! WIN now.

[Dodecahedron]

 

Trade Sano to build your bridge to 2022? No, No, NO, NO, NO!!

 

We are in the window of winning and going for it now. We are not in Bridge Building mode anymore. Just, No!! We go out with a plan to win for the next few seasons and build bridges when we need to build bridges. We don't need bridges, we need Pennants, Trophies and Rings. Trade Sano? No! WIN now.

 

We are already seeing pieces from last year move on. I doubt the team is looking at trading Sano, but we should also look at who will be gone next year.

 

Like it or not, this feels more and more like a retooling year. 

[lecroy24fan]

 

 

Like it or not, this feels more and more like a retooling year. 

 

Not aimed directly at you here . I'm sick of hearing this or things close to it. Yes the Twins haven't done much but the same can be said for just about every team. If players were signing and lots of trades were being made I'd get it. But we need to be patient and wait until things start to happen all across the majors.

[h2oface]

A .900-1.000 OPS hitter jams up the DH? In my book, replacing that with a rotation of batters that don't come close to that is ludicrous. That is exactly what you want as a DH. Jams up the DH? That's the best jam a team could have.

[baul0010]

 

A .900-1.000 OPS hitter jams up the DH? In my book, replacing that with a rotation of batters that don't come close to that is ludicrous. That is exactly what you want as a DH. Jams up the DH? That's the best jam a team could have.

The likelihood of Cruz being a .900 to 1.000 ops as a 40 year old are super slim!  I love him, but he's old and he was looking old at the end of last year.  That was with a 60 game schedule.  He won't keep this up forever.  You can't find the next Cruz by keeping the young fellas on the bench.

[h2oface]

 

The likelihood of Cruz being a .900 to 1.000 ops as a 40 year old are super slim!  I love him, but he's old and he was looking old at the end of last year.  That was with a 60 game schedule.  He won't keep this up forever.  You can't find the next Cruz by keeping the young fellas on the bench.

 

I agree. He looked a lot older than when he was 38. Totally. The chances were slim in 2017, and 2018, and 2019 and...... He looked a ton older than someone like, say, a 32 year old Brian Dozier, or a 25-26 year old Miguel Sano - and a ton older than Christian Yelich looked in 2020, and was just lucky to out perform just about any one in MLB. You can't find the next Cruz anywhere. He is a freak of nature. So freak-out! 1 or two more years is pretty far from forever.

[TopGunn#22]

Look guys, I'm all for trading Sano and getting a starting pitcher (Marquez or Gray from Colorado)? not because I want to "re-tool."

I want to move on from Sano because I think he's a rally killer with all the K's and that Kiriloff will instantly be better for the lineup.

I think Colorado isn't contending for YEARS with the Dodgers and the Padres and they need a BOMB once in a while to keep the fans interested.  And the Rockies have nobody at 1B.  But you put Marquez in our rotation and Kiriloff in our lineup and I think we're instantly BETTER than if we had Sano.  

[goulik]

So looking at the trade simulator, Sano has a Negative trade value so trading him is probably not going to get you what you think it will and also probably means many of us (including me) value him more highly than most of the baseball world.

[stringer bell]

Cruz' second half of 2020 (30 games) was very ordinary. Does that matter to anyone? 2020 was such a strange year maybe it shouldn't count for much, but then again maybe his insanely good stats in July and early August shouldn't count for as much either. 

 

I'd like to see Cruz with the Twins in 2021, but I do think a second year shouldn't be guaranteed.

[dxpavelka]

And by logjam you're really talking about 3 guys.  History says that in that situation what generally happens is that MAYBE one of the 3 meets expectations, one ends up being an average big league player and one fails miserably.  Letting your top two run producers walk and HOPING the guys you have waiting in the wings are ready to perform at their level from day one is a potential recipe for disaster.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I agree. He looked a lot older than when he was 38. Totally. The chances were slim in 2017, and 2018, and 2019 and...... He looked a ton older than someone like, say, a 32 year old Brian Dozier, or a 25-26 year old Miguel Sano - and a ton older than Christian Yelich looked in 2020, and was just lucky to out perform just about any one in MLB. You can't find the next Cruz anywhere. He is a freak of nature. So freak-out! 1 or two more years is pretty far from forever.

The problem is that Cruz, like all of us, is mortal. He's also at the age where decline comes in a hurry. The number of great hitters at age 40 is very small in the history of MLB... but the percentage of those same players who were out of baseball completely at age 42 is very high. Cruz is at the age where literally the best hitters in the history of the game stopped being good at baseball.

 

Jim Thome was a beast at age 39. At age 40, he was good. At age 41, he retired.

 

Frank Thomas was a beast at age 38, good at 39, and retired at 40.

 

When the fall comes, it comes in a hurry. I'm moderately comfortable with Cruz signing for his age 41 season but have absolutely no faith in guaranteeing his age 42 season.

 

My line in the sand would be a generous offer for 2021 with an option and generous buyout (say $3m) for 2022. Give him a nice incentive to stick around without risking $15m on a 42 year old hitter.

[AWOLNATION_11]

I wonder if Justin Turner would make sense as an alternative.  I'm not sure what kind of contract he's looking at next, but a productive bat and could play some 3B and 1B creating a bit of a 1B/3B/DH rotation with others also mixed in here and there.  

 

[Dodecahedron]

 

Not aimed directly at you here . I'm sick of hearing this or things close to it. Yes the Twins haven't done much but the same can be said for just about every team. If players were signing and lots of trades were being made I'd get it. But we need to be patient and wait until things start to happen all across the majors.

 

We are all sick of it.

 

But this is usually the right take.

[Physics Guy]

I've made mention of this on at least a couple of threads, but I really think the Twins should at least explore LeMahieu as a Util/DH player. MLBTradeRumors estimated him at 4/68, which is well below the 5/100M that is rumored to be his asking price. I could see a 5/85-90M contract midpoint working for the Twins. He would likely be a step down from Cruz's past two years, but might not be a downgrade from what we should expect from Cruz this year.  The big advantage I see with LeMahieu is that he could play  20-30 games in relief of Donaldson, Arraez and Sano, all of whom have had a difficult time staying healthy.  Even if DJ was a step down from Cruz, I think the added benefit of keeping the others healthy in the lineup could be a net positive for the Twins.  The Twins would only need to then sign a true backup SS for the hitting side of the roster.  Ultimately I don't think the Twins can outbid NY if they want to bring him back, but they should be exploring this option.  

[tony&rodney]

LeMatieu had a fine year in New York and received justified adulation from all. I'm not sure he is going to be ready to sign elsewhere unless the Yankees simply say no. Their crappy little park was designed for players like him and the NYY have the most money. both sides are being a little stubborn right now but everyone expects LeMatieu back in pinstripes. 

Nevertheless, i wholeheartedly agree that the Twins should at least be making a call and explore the possibility of a LeMatieu contract. He fills so many roles. It just seems like a real stretch for Minnesota.