Article: DET 5, MIN 3: Is There Anything Left?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

You're right.  They should've gone all in on the 48-56 team.  We were just lying in wait.

 

Maybe your points about earlier in the season are valid, seems worth talking about.  But any points about July 29th are flat out ridiculous.  And so were Ervin's comments about "giving up".  That nonsense needs to end.  It's over.  The right thing was done.  Move on.

I am fine with him answering the question that way. If I were in that locker room I'd be pissed too. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

After the game, Santana did what you'd expect a professional veteran ballplayer to do. He took responsibility for his shortcomings and ... oh wait, no, he didn't. Jump head to about the 1:20 mark on this postgame interview:

 

I didn't hear that as Ervin passing the buck on this game. He addressed this game at the start of the video. Here, he was asked specifically about losing Rodney, and he was answering in general about the difficulty and frustration of the whole situation.

 

And it's tough. The front office DID give up, even if you think it was the right decision, even if you think the players are ultimately to blame for putting themselves in that position. The front office still had to pull the trigger, and I don't think that can just be ignored, or we can expect everyone -- especially players -- to have gotten past that in just 2 weeks. It was a difficult and complex situation. The front office even felt it necessary to address the situation in a letter to season ticket holders. I am not sure how they have addressed it to the team behind closed doors, but that is probably informing Ervin's reaction here too. I am sure it has been tough for the front office -- heck, it's been a mildly tough situation for some of us fans -- and I imagine it's even tougher as players who are ultimately closest to its immediate ramifications.

 

I may not agree with Ervin, but I'm not going to criticize him for expressing his frustration in this way, in this context. Likewise, I'm not jumping down the throat of the front office either (even if I attempt Airplane! and Spinal Tap jokes at their expense ). I think there is still room for different feelings in this conversation, especially as moves are still happening (like Rodney).

Edited August 11, 2018 by spycake

[Platoon]

First off I don't think the FO gave up anything. There was nothing to give up. In the context of the Twins orginisation, the FO went as far as "all in" as they could this spring. And then some bad luck, and bad performances happened. They are well documented. But what does surprise me is that some of the players who were the cause of the sell of, are the most vocal about giving up.

 

There was no reason to continue the present course any further. Expiring contracts for next year made that inevitable. For those who thought we could resign Dozier, the only way that was going to happen is if nobody else took him. For amateur GM's like me, that should be a non analytical value of his services.

 

Time will tell if the Twins have enough MiLB talent to put together a competitive team. But at least this FO made the move to find out. I say this with the expectation that as time goes on they will continue to transition the lineup. I don't expect them to wave a magic wand. 40 and 25 man roster issues, and frankly service time issues impact those decisions, far more than I can comprehend. Yes I want to see Belisle gone, and guys like Rooker and Romereo up for a look see, but not if it costs a year of control. As for Gordon, no. He doesn't seem to be able to handle AAA yet.

 

Finally, Molitor has to go, period, full stop! His lack of any sort of enthusiasm for any player under thirty without ten years in the league is non conducive with the direction this team is going. His BP usage is ridiculous, he has pitchers sitting while he puts catchers on the mound. No, that didn't impact that game, but I bet they loved him in the pen. He has to go, you cannot do a rebuild with someone like him in the dugout. I just hope that his continued employment is not determined by Pohlad. Sadly we will never know. JP forever poisoned that well with his "Molitor will stay" proclamation!

[wsnydes]

I think the point being missed, including by Erv, is that they weren't winning with their best pieces. So, complaining about not being able to win without your best pieces is really misguided and silly.

 

I don't really care so much about what he said as it relates to the sell off, I like to see frustration with how this season has gone. Their job is to win games with the players available and they didn't do that, which is why the current situation exists.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I think the point being missed, including by Erv, is that they weren't winning with their best pieces. So, complaining about not being able to win without your best pieces is really misguided and silly.

 

I don't really care so much about what he said as it relates to the sell off, I like to see frustration with how this season has gone. Their job is to win games with the players available and they didn't do that, which is why the current situation exists.

I think you are being a bit too critical of a few sentences given at the end of a postgame interview in response to a specific question about losing Rodney. For all we know, if there had been a follow-up question about the team's poor record through 4 months, Ervin might have acknowledged how the players contributed. That wouldn't really invalidate his previous response, though.

 

It's still a tough situation. Especially for Ervin, he didn't even get to play until late July -- I wouldn't be surprised if, as a competitor, he imagined his absence contributed to us falling behind Cleveland, and his return could help us catch them. That's probably misguided given his current stuff, but is understandable given the pro athlete's mindset. For better or worse, these guys generally don't get where they are by admitting long odds or dwelling on their failures.

 

Back to Tom's implications, I don't think Ervin got unprofessional here at all, given the context.

[Riverbrian]

 

Was he paying attention to the game?

 

Logan Forsythe, Brian Dozier's replacement, had two hits. Ehire Adrianza, playing Eduardo Escobar's old position tonight, had three hits. But it's too bad the deflated bullpen blew it. Oh wait, no, Oliver Drake threw two no-hit innings.

 

Hell of a thing for him to say on a night where the replacement guys were great.

 

He was asked this question "The Trade of Fernando. How tough is that for...  you as a friend and how tough is that as a team"? 

 

That question was an abrupt segue from the game. 

 

He answered the question. 

 

If you ever wonder why we need PR departments, or why players should stay off social media. Please consider your reaction to his answer and how counter productive it is to getting actual inside information. 

 

He left the public relations handbook for a brief moment and you were right there to quickly slap him for it. 

 

Sorry for slapping you back. 

 

 

[wsnydes]

I think you are being a bit too critical of a few sentences given at the end of a postgame interview in response to a specific question about losing Rodney. For all we know, if there had been a follow-up question about the team's poor record through 4 months, Ervin might have acknowledged how the players contributed. That wouldn't really invalidate his previous response, though.

 

It's still a tough situation. Especially for Ervin, he didn't even get to play until late July -- I wouldn't be surprised if, as a competitor, he imagined his absence contributed to us falling behind Cleveland, and his return could help us catch them. That's probably misguided given his current stuff, but is understandable given the pro athlete's mindset. For better or worse, these guys generally don't get where they are by admitting long odds or dwelling on their failures.

 

Back to Tom's implications, I don't think Ervin got unprofessional here at all, given the context.

I guess that I don't feel that I'm being all that critical. It's not like I'm destroying him for his comments and I even stated that I didn't really care about what he said. I don't think he was really unprofessional, just missing the point regardless of the question asked. He has a right to be frustrated and nobody likes to see a sell off. Fact of the matter is that they didn't do their job earlier in the season and that is what put them in this position to begin with. Like I said in my first post, I like to see the frustration. It shows they care. But ability to win games based on the pieces presently around him, or the others, is a moot point when they didn't win when the best pieces were here. Edited August 11, 2018 by wsnydes

[slash129]

Insanity = Doing the same thing over and over again (posting discontent over Gonsalves not getting a look and misguided discontent over Gordon not getting a look) and expecting different results.

 

The grumpy posts regarding these two are becoming borderline spam.

[Mr. Brooks]

NOT disagreeing with you at all!

 

This team has a nucleus that shouldn't be denied. Just to be accurate, Santana would be 36 next season.

 

My whole point was, forget age for a moment, what has Santana been most of his career, and what has he been the last 2 years for the Twins? Easy answer, pretty damn good. Is he done? Yeah, maybe he is. But again, lots of variables, we are not talking about a surgery and recovery for TJ or TOR or a hip or knee. Is he worth, maybe, a flier on a 1 year deal with incentives?

 

Look, Gonsalves should already be up. Romero should be up and getting ready for 2019 as well. Pineda could be a big boost, but could find himself in the pen with May. (Not necessarily a bad thing) Mejia will be with the club as a starter, or in the pen. Thorpe has the potential to be as good or better than Gonsalves or Mejia. But unless we make some BIG FA move or trade move, we have some guys to work with and build around.

 

Audition Santana for the rest of the season or not. Bring him back on a 1 year flier or not. Isn't it worth considering at least?

I'd be fine with a minor league deal with a May 15th opt out. Not interested at all in a guaranteed mlb spot, no matter how favorable the financial terms are.

 

It's one thing to learn how to pitch with moxy when you lose your stuff over time. It's completely different to try to figure it out when you lose your stuff overnight.

I opined that Santana's effectiveness was likely over as we knew it when the surgery was announced. That opinion was of course heartily denounced, but I've seen nothing in the months since to change my mind.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I am fine with him answering the question that way. If I were in that locker room I'd be pissed too. 

 

I'm ok with him being pissed.

 

I guess I would've preferred the team had gotten this upset about their fate back in May.  It would've been nice if Dozier hadn't been a hole in the lineup for the entire year.  Or if Buxton could stay on the field.  Or if Sano could've been better prepared to help.  Or if LoMo or Lynn would've justified their signing.  I could go on.

 

Being mad at the FO for selling at 48-56?  That's just ridiculous.  It really is.  

[jtkoupal]

Despite Ervin's great 2017, he greatly overperformed his 4.77 xFIP and 4.60 SIERA. 

 

He was destined for regression anyway. 

 

Factor in the surgery that has diminished his velocity, and here we have 2018 Ervin Santana.

 

One thing is almost a guarantee... that Ervin Santana will NOT be back at his $14M option next season.

 

He is probably not back at all. Quite truthfully, the Twins don't need him back.

[Riverbrian]

 

I'm ok with him being pissed.

 

I guess I would've preferred the team had gotten this upset about their fate back in May.  It would've been nice if Dozier hadn't been a hole in the lineup for the entire year.  Or if Buxton could stay on the field.  Or if Sano could've been better prepared to help.  Or if LoMo or Lynn would've justified their signing.  I could go on.

 

Being mad at the FO for selling at 48-56?  That's just ridiculous.  It really is.  

 

There is plenty of blame to go around. 

 

The Players did not do their job. They need to look in the mirror. 

 

The Manager allowed the players who didn't do their job to keep doing their job. He needs to look in the mirror. 

 

The Front Office did not prepare for the possibility that the players would not do their job. They need to look in the mirror. 

 

1 Twins Way should really have one big GIANT MIRROR that stretches across the entire facility. 

 

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

I don't think he was really unprofessional, just missing the point regardless of the question asked.

So his response to the question asked suggests he is missing the point... of a question not asked?

[DocBauer]

I guess I am a bigger let the kids play kinda guy considering what we have. I suppose if we could get Santana for under $10 million it may be tempting but I also hope that the Twins alleviate the log jam of minor league arms. I see Fernando Romero at the point of his career that Berrios was in 2016, the only difference is Romero has pitched more capablely in his 1st year in the bigs than Berrios did so conventional wisdom should be that he’ll be even more ready next year and with his immense skill set I don’t want to see him even start the year in AAA. That will set up Lewis Thorpe being moved up to a crowded Rochester rotation and give some mid season promotion opportunities for the likes of Sean Poppen, Tyler Wells, and Brusdar Graterol.

I also want the kids to play, FWIW. I'd have Romero and Gonsalves in the rotation today. Mejia too, when off the DL.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Being mad at the FO for selling at 48-56? That's just ridiculous. It really is.

I agree that would be ridiculous, since they actually sold at 48-53.

 

I think Ervin's comment is being used to rehash the same old debates, so I will digress. I don't want to do that again.

 

I just think Tom was overreacting wildly to a pretty understandable response to a pretty specific question. Tom's characterization of the clip doesn't seem fair. I strongly disagree that Ervin was being disrespectful or unprofessional, and in no way should it be considered a factor in his future with the club. (Not that I necessarily want him re-signed, but Tom seems to be advocating for his immediate trade/release based in part on this comment. That's what I am reacting to here, not more general trade deadline discussion.)

[Tom Froemming]

 

He was asked this question "The Trade of Fernando. How tough is that for...  you as a friend and how tough is that as a team"? 

 

That question was an abrupt segue from the game. 

 

He answered the question. 

 

If you ever wonder why we need PR departments, or why players should stay off social media. Please consider your reaction to his answer and how counter productive it is to getting actual inside information. 

 

He left the public relations handbook for a brief moment and you were right there to quickly slap him for it.

 

Sorry for slapping you back. 

He absolutely deserves it. Ervin Santana should be grateful he has an opportunity to keep pitching in the major leagues right now. This isn't the media using Santana to obtain inside information, I don't think Mike set him up to take a cheap shot at the front office, this is Ervin using the media to be a cry baby.

 

It's good that he's frustrated about how the season went, he should be, but that's not the way to go about voicing frustrations. He also should also be able to acknowledge a part of what's unfolded lies upon his own shoulders.

 

If this is what comes out when he ventures outside of the "PR handbook," then he should probably stick to the script.

[Riverbrian]

 

I also want the kids to play, FWIW. I'd have Romero and Gonsalves in the rotation today. Mejia too, when off the DL.

 

It's time to start weening the playing time from the players who won't be back next year but I suppose they do have to showcase a little bit for possible August deals. 

 

Santana:

 

Since he is coming off injury. I think it makes sense to let him make a couple of more starts for the scouts of other clubs to form opinion. 

 

Forsythe:

 

I suppose he could get traded for something this month but how necessary is an audition? wouldn't the book on this guy be already written. How much damage can you actually do to his trade value by asking him to share playing time with Adrianaza or ROSARIO on a team that is not in contention. Hard to find that 2B hole with the contenders so he probably won't bring high value no matter how hot he gets in an everyday role. BTW... if he is doing some auditioning for trade value (I don't think he is), Play him at 3B on occasion. Open the market up past the limited 2B suitors. If Molitor is playing Forsythe simply because he thinks he is better than Adrianaza. He may be right but... well... it's gonna be hard to explain to forward thinking GM's in job interviews down the road. 

 

Morrison: Will the Twins pick up his option? If Yes: I don't know how to respond to that. Then whatever. 

If No: Move on. Turn it over to Tyler Austin right now. 

 

Mauer: Will not play for another club. He might be back next year. Let him play... let him rest.

 

 

 

 

 

[Riverbrian]

 

He absolutely deserves it. Ervin Santana should be grateful he has an opportunity to keep pitching in the major leagues right now. This isn't the media using Santana to obtain inside information, I don't think Mike set him up to take a cheap shot at the front office, this is Ervin using the media to be a cry baby.

 

It's good that he's frustrated about how the season went, he should be, but that's not the way to go about voicing frustrations. He also should also be able to acknowledge a part of what's unfolded lies upon his own shoulders.

 

If this is what comes out when he ventures outside of the "PR handbook," then he should probably stick to the script.

 

You are right... He should have stuck to the script. 

 

Last night... He didn't and look at what happened.

 

This is why Falvey and Lavine can't be transparent like we want them to be? 

 

This is why Santana can't be transparent like we want him to be? 

 

This is why the Ball Boy signs a confidentially agreement at the age of 15. 

 

Just put down your indignation and think about it.

 

Then take your responsibility as part of the mentality that has created the repeated safe soundbites from every major league player that has led to the same repeated safe questions from the reporters who report.

 

It's pretty sterile and it's been pretty sterile for a while. Last night, we get one mud print on the nice clean floor and you are pissed. 

 

Please Tom... Think about it. 

 

 

[wsnydes]

 

So his response to the question asked suggests he is missing the point... of a question not asked?

I think you're reading into my comment far more than how I meant it. He said that it's difficult to win without your best pieces. His words, not mine. I simply stated that they didn't win with those "best pieces", so stating that it's difficult to win while not having them, while true, is missing the point. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm not attacking him or his comments. Clearly he's frustrated by the sell off, as he should be. I figured Erv to have a little more perspective I guess.

[Tom Froemming]

You are right... He should have stuck to the script. 

 

Last night... He didn't and look at what happened.

 

This is why Falvey and Lavine can't be transparent like we want them to be? 

 

This is why Santana can't be transparent like we want him to be? 

 

This is why the Ball Boy signs a confidentially agreement at the age of 15. 

 

Just put down your indignation and think about it.

 

Then take your responsibility as part of the mentality that has created the repeated safe soundbites from every major league player that has led to the same repeated safe questions from the reporters who report.

 

It's pretty sterile and it's been pretty sterile for a while. Last night, we get one mud print on the nice clean floor and you are pissed. 

 

Please Tom... Think about it.

 

We who? You're assuming we want the same things. Think about that.

[Riverbrian]

 

We who? You're assuming we want the same things. Think about that.

 

I have thought about it quite a bit. I make no such assumptions. I'll be careful next time to type "Others and I" instead of "We" for perfect clarity. 

 

Some people just want to watch the world burn. 

 

http://twinsdaily.com/topic/30721-does-the-front-office-owe-us-an-explanation/

 

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

He absolutely deserves it. Ervin Santana should be grateful he has an opportunity to keep pitching in the major leagues right now. This isn't the media using Santana to obtain inside information, I don't think Mike set him up to take a cheap shot at the front office, this is Ervin using the media to be a cry baby.

 

It's good that he's frustrated about how the season went, he should be, but that's not the way to go about voicing frustrations. He also should also be able to acknowledge a part of what's unfolded lies upon his own shoulders.

 

If this is what comes out when he ventures outside of the "PR handbook," then he should probably stick to the script.

Tom, respectfully, I can't disagree with this enough.

 

I don't think it was a cheap shot at all. I don't hear it as him placing undue blame on the front office, or even saying they necessarily did anything wrong. It is really just an acknowledgement of the fact that the front office and players are in very different roles. The front office can sell assets when they feel it is strategically wise to do so, and they can send a letter to season ticket holders explaining themselves. But the players can't do any of that. They have to keep playing. They have to keep working toward the same goal of winning games (and divisions), same as always.

 

And sometimes these different roles will come into conflict. Like right around a trade deadline when we were a long shot but not quite a "no shot" and we we were coming up on a bunch of games with our chief rival (the most recent two having been walk-off losses where perhaps Rodney was unavailable due to trade talks/agreements).

 

If the front office addressed the team right now, I am 100% sure they would acknowledged responses like Ervin's as perfectly valid. I bet his teammates would too, they are all caught up in the same conflict.

[ashbury]

Being mad at the FO for selling at 48-56?  That's just ridiculous.  It really is.  

 

I agree that would be ridiculous, since they actually sold at 48-53.

This is a very fair counterpoint to 48-56. The die was not cast, until the moment Escobar was traded.

 

(And how pathetic is it, if trading your super-sub utility infielder is what constitutes raising the white flag of surrender?)

 

But trades don't happen overnight, and decisions to raise that white flag even less so. Escobar's trade on July 27 happened to come at an awkward moment, following a four game winning streak. But, on July 22 the team's record was 44-53, and I'm going to infer that it was on this date or shortly afterward that the front office put their stake in the ground and decided the plug was to be pulled. Several trade discussions no doubt had to be put into high gear before the first one was signed. We fans can't look at July 27 as a simple go/no-go date. 44-53 looms large, to me.

 

(And how pathetic is it, if 44-53 followed by 48-53, followed by 48-56, constitutes differences in how the team's chances at post-season play are viewed?)

[TheLeviathan]

With all due respect spycake, I think you're spinning this way too positively.  Given the question he was asked, he had no sound basis to say the FO "gave up on them".  I especially love the line of "We were only 10 games back".

 

That comes off as willfully ignorant.

 

Ervin Santana is an adult who, by now, should know that the game he plays is also a business.  He is absolutely welcome to feel upset that many of his teammates and friends were traded away, but he should also understand the context.  He had many avenues to answer that question candidly while also understanding the predicament the FO was in at the deadline.  He chose instead to use that question as a sounding board to unfairly attack the FO.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

This is a very fair counterpoint to 48-56. The die was not cast, until the moment Escobar was traded.

 

(And how pathetic is it, if trading your super-sub utility infielder is what constitutes raising the white flag of surrender?)

 

But trades don't happen overnight, and decisions to raise that white flag even less so. Escobar's trade on July 27 happened to come at an awkward moment, following a four game winning streak. But, on July 22 the team's record was 44-53, and I'm going to infer that it was on this date or shortly afterward that the front office put their stake in the ground and decided the plug was to be pulled. Several trade discussions no doubt had to be put into high gear before the first one was signed. We fans can't look at July 27 as a simple go/no-go date. 44-53 looms large, to me.

 

(And how pathetic is it, if 44-53 followed by 48-53, followed by 48-56, constitutes how the team's chances at post-season play are viewed?)

 

Exactly, this team was flirting with 10 games under and 6-10 games back in their division.  The FO didn't have the luxury to wait out the games with Cleveland.  We'd have all loved to have those games before the deadline, but the decision makers didn't have that luxury.  

 

Yet it feels like a repeated hammer against their decisions that they didn't "wait" for those games.  The problem with a lot of the criticisms on this board, and Ervin's, is a complete omission of the larger context of how and why the decisions had to be made.

 

And, just like Ervin, frustration is totally fair.  But without the context, the criticisms that stem from that frustration are often ridiculously unfair.

[Rigby]

Anyone who deems Ervin's comments insensitive may want to steer clear of locker rooms in general.......

[ashbury]

Anyone who deems Ervin's comments insensitive may want to steer clear of locker rooms in general.......

That was my reaction. I simply have no way of guessing whether ESan's remark crosses a line or not. The same words could have a different impact, depending on a dozen individual factors in that particular clubhouse. I'm not there, regardless of whether I'm qualified to judge or not. This is one of a manager's primary jobs, to gauge this and a thousand other things that get said or done over the course of a season, and take decisive steps, or subtle steps, in the rare case he deems it necessary - or, more likely, do nothing. Molitor, Glynn, etc, have seen it all by now. As a fan, I'll merely note this instance, and remember it if some kind of fallout occurs in a week or two. It probably falls in the large category of "do nothing".

[The Wise One]

 

Pitching is about ability and pure stuff, at the end of the day. It's also about experience and knowledge. How many dynamic arms, over the years, have we all just seen flame out due to the inability to throw secondary stuff, or learn "how to pitch"? And how many guys have we seen that weren't flamethrowers but had that secondary stuff to succeed? And how many guys have we seen who used knowledge and command to offset a loss of velocity over time?

Your answer would undoubtedly depend on age and how long you've been a baseball fan. The ultimate example, IMO, would be Greg Maddux, who began his career with dominate stuff, and finished with dominate stuff based on said control and pitchability.

So where does Santana fit in this conversation? He's had a long and great career. He's been mostly steady his whole career. If you look at his numbers, his brief Twins career he has performed about as well as he ever has. I would never diminish a pitcher, or any athlete, undergoing surgery. Something is wrong/hurt, and you are attempting to correct it. But physically, Santana has always been in shape. Mentally, he's always been strong. I've heard rumors and whispers for some time now that age will catch up, and that he has a tendon just waiting to give out.

A pitcher doesn't just need a healthy shoulder and elbow...along with hips, knees, etc...but something as simple as a wrist and fingers to control the ball and snap off his stuff. Considering his career, and his season last year...not to dimish surgery...but is it possible the velocity and such are still there waiting for a normal prep time?

The Twins have financial flexibility, and prospects to trade, and talent in their nucleus to work with, that they could afford to bring Ervin back. Not at his $15M to be certain, but maybe on a cheaper 1 year deal with incentives. Unless there is something else going on physically, would it be such a bad move? Would you bet against him?

This year the comp might be Mike Maddux. While Greg Maddux preformed well his last half decade of his career, he was at an over 4 ERA. 

[BJames]

Frustrating year, with all three areas breaking down- Players,Manager,F.O.  Let see where we go from here, but I'm for playing out the rest of the season looking towards next year.  To me Spring Training starts today.  

[The Wise One]

The Twins traded a few of their under performing assets and a lefty reliever. That is not quiting