When do the Twins cut bait with Phil Hughes?

[Rosterman]

Any way you cut it, he is owed and will be paid his full contract. The Twins can get the major league inimum repaid for the next two years...if someone else does sign him. Or, Hughes could jsut sit at home and collect a paycheck. He can't go to Asia, unless a team cuts a deal with the Twins.

 

The question is: can you writeoff the contract and does it count against this and next year?

 

Is it better to have a player who can pitch and contribute than one who can't?

 

I don't think he can go to Rochester (like Blackburn).

 

He'll egt a couple more opportunities. He could be disabled and if the Twins can recoup something that way, more power to them, but only if it frees a roster spot.

[FormerMinnasotan]

I’m guessing they’ll give him all of April to “find himself”. The only way he doesn’t pitch through April is if he lands back on the DL. If he is deemed healthy and pitches terribly in April my guess is he is demoted to the bullpen until he looks worthy of rejoining the rotation. I doubt the Twins simply want to give up on Hughes with 2 yrs left on his deal so they’ll give him every chance to succeed.

[Guest]

Newsfeeds tell me tonight is the finale of The Bachelor, so, tomorrow?

[Brandon Warne]

 

Perhaps things have changed since 2016. http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/images/players/head_shot/150212.jpg

https://www.mlb.com/news/michael-cuddyer-mets-reach-buyout-agreement/c-165936318

 

His wasn't renegotiated. He retired and left money on the table, and they gave him some of it as a thank you.

[USAFChief]

His wasn't renegotiated. He retired and left money on the table, and they gave him some of it as a thank you.

Did Kim Byung Ho renegotiate?

[Mr. Brooks]

His wasn't renegotiated. He retired and left money on the table, and they gave him some of it as a thank you.

From the linked article:

 

"Instead, Cuddyer negotiated a modest settlement with the Mets, seeking to retire after a 15-year career that included two All-Star appearances. Neither side revealed details of the pact at the time"

[Brandon Warne]

 

From the linked article:

"Instead, Cuddyer negotiated a modest settlement with the Mets, seeking to retire after a 15-year career that included two All-Star appearances. Neither side revealed details of the pact at the time"

 

You're missing some key points.

 

1. Cuddyer willingly walked away from the deal/was retiring. The union wouldn't allow this in Hughes' case. 

2. Cuddyer had one year left, Hughes has two.

 

These cases aren't really comparable at all.

[Brandon Warne]

 

Did Kim Byung Ho renegotiate?

 

Byung Ho Park? He, like Tsuyoshi Nishioka, willingly returned to his home country and forfeited his future earnings. If he wasn't going back home, the union would not have allowed it, because it sets a terrible precedent.

[ashbury]

You're missing some key points.

 

1. Cuddyer willingly walked away from the deal/was retiring. The union wouldn't allow this in Hughes' case. 

2. Cuddyer had one year left, Hughes has two.

 

These cases aren't really comparable at all.

Retirement was exactly the case that I raised in the first place.

 

http://twinsdaily.com/topic/28781-when-do-the-twins-cut-bait-with-phil-hughes/?p=718128

 

Mine was a just-for-fun response to the OP with no actual information to suggest Hughes really has such plans, but it's a very comparable scenario to Cuddyer's if it happened to play out that way. Anyway, the article linked earlier specifically says Cuddyer did what you said was not possible: a valid contract was renegotiated and a retirement was announced.

[Otto von Ballpark]

FWIW, Cuddyer retired in December, and was going to be 37 years old by opening day, and as mentioned was entering the final year of his deal. I'd guess a late March "retirement" by a 32 year old with 2 guaranteed years remaining would invite a lot more scrutiny from the union even if the buyout was correspondingly increased, especially in the current climate of MLB-MLBPA relations. They could ascertain (perhaps correctly) that Hughes was being coerced to retire by threat of being permanently banished to the 60-day DL for somewhat specious reasons. (If Hughes didn't figure that out on his own first, of course.)

[USAFChief]

Byung Ho Park? He, like Tsuyoshi Nishioka, willingly returned to his home country and forfeited his future earnings. If he wasn't going back home, the union would not have allowed it, because it sets a terrible precedent.

Yes, Park Byung Ho. My bad.

 

He renegotiated his MLB contract.

 

The point being, while I certainly agree Hughes is very unlikely to want to, he certainly could choose to renegotiate if he wanted.

 

And the union would almost certainly discourage it, but they can’t prevent it. MLB contracts are guaranteed in that neither side can alter the deal, unless both sides agree. Like most legal contracts, I presume.

[Mr. Brooks]

You're missing some key points.

 

1. Cuddyer willingly walked away from the deal/was retiring. The union wouldn't allow this in Hughes' case.

2. Cuddyer had one year left, Hughes has two.

 

These cases aren't really comparable at all.

Well the posts you are responding to are presuming Hughes wants out. Nobody is suggesting forcing him to do anything.

And I was pointing out that the article used the exact language that you tried to specifically say didn't happen.

[gman]

Depends on how the front office and manager see the team. If they truly see this as a playoff bound team, which seems to be the case, they go north with the 25 best players to help them win from game 1. Why give away 5 or 6 games whatever time of the season? If they are not 100% confident this is a playoff bound team, maybe they keep more options available for questionable players.

 

If they plan on giving pitchers 5 or 6 games with potentially negative results, I would prefer they give those to their top pitching prospects later in the season than to very questionable short term pitchers that would cost them games now. In any case 2 weeks from now we will have a better idea.

[ashbury]

FWIW, Cuddyer retired in December, and was going to be 37 years old by opening day, and as mentioned was entering the final year of his deal. I'd guess a late March "retirement" by a 32 year old with 2 guaranteed years remaining would invite a lot more scrutiny from the union even if the buyout was correspondingly increased, especially in the current climate of MLB-MLBPA relations. They could ascertain (perhaps correctly) that Hughes was being coerced to retire by threat of being permanently banished to the 60-day DL for somewhat specious reasons. (If Hughes didn't figure that out on his own first, of course.)

Though I had no idea my fanciful little thought would generate this much comment, the discussion has been good with several worthwhile points raised. Again, a MLB contract has obligations on both sides, and we don't know what degree of pain or other factors may be involved for Hughes, even with a DL stint as a fallback for him. If a player has decided he has had enough, no player's union can force him to keep up his side of the contract. It's a rare outcome; but we were putting down our "bets" and I figured I'd try a longshot that no one else was likely to choose.

[nicksaviking]

Yes, Park Byung Ho. My bad.

 

He renegotiated his MLB contract.

 

The point being, while I certainly agree Hughes is very unlikely to want to, he certainly could choose to renegotiate if he wanted.

 

And the union would almost certainly discourage it, but they can’t prevent it. MLB contracts are guaranteed in that neither side can alter the deal, unless both sides agree. Like most legal contracts, I presume.

In such a bizarre year for the MLBPA, should Hughes choose to renegotiate and walk away and if the Twins used the savings on one of the unsigned free pitchers, I'd bet the union would put up less of a stink.

 

And why would we think a contract cant be renegotiated? Hughes literally renegotiated the deal he's currently pitching under. His original deal paid him 8M per year, he renegotiated and got 9.2M for the original contract years plus the extension.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

In such a bizarre year for the MLBPA, should Hughes choose to renegotiate and walk away and if the Twins used the savings on one of the unsigned free pitchers, I'd bet the union would put up less of a stink.

And why would we think a contract cant be renegotiated? Hughes literally renegotiated the deal he's currently pitching under. His original deal paid him 8M per year, he renegotiated and got 9.2M for the original contract years plus the extension.

Good point on potentially signing a remaining FA, although I don't know if that option will be on the table by the time a Hughes decision comes down.

 

And obviously contracts can be renegotiated, but renegotiating downward is pretty rare.

 

Anything is possible, but since Hughes bothered to have a second surgery last summer and has shown up "healthy" this spring, at age 32 with 2 guaranteed years left on his deal, it's probably a longshot for him to retire (or be coerced into retirement) in just a few weeks.

[Brandon Warne]

 

Well the posts you are responding to are presuming Hughes wants out. 

 

Out of a deal that'll pay him $27 million over the next two years no matter what he does? You can see why I'm not really seeing the merit of debating that point, right?

[Brandon Warne]

 

In such a bizarre year for the MLBPA, should Hughes choose to renegotiate and walk away and if the Twins used the savings on one of the unsigned free pitchers, I'd bet the union would put up less of a stink.

And why would we think a contract cant be renegotiated? Hughes literally renegotiated the deal he's currently pitching under. His original deal paid him 8M per year, he renegotiated and got 9.2M for the original contract years plus the extension.

 

You can always negotiate up. There's no way the union would allow negotiating down. And in a weird year for the union, there's even less incentive to dissociate from their scruples. 

[nicksaviking]

 

You can always negotiate up. There's no way the union would allow negotiating down. And in a weird year for the union, there's even less incentive to dissociate from their scruples. 

 

I doubt Hughes is going to just walk away.

 

But it's not the union's call. If a guy wants to walk away because his body can't take it or he doesn't have it in him to keep toiling away with futility, the union can't force him to keep playing if both the team and the player have come to an agreement. That would be neither be ethical nor legal and any pressure they put on a player to continue playing when he desires not to is only going to alienate the union from players who commiserate with a guy who's body has lost the ability to play the game.

[bobs]

He's going to at least get a chance to make 2-3 starts I'd guess.  With his salary, you almost have to see if there is anything there at all.  I just can't see them sending him to AAA.  So, I'll say by May 1.

[Brandon Warne]

 

I doubt Hughes is going to just walk away.

 

But it's not the union's call. If a guy wants to walk away because his body can't take it or he doesn't have it in him to keep toiling away with futility, the union can't force him to keep playing if both the team and the player have come to an agreement. That would be neither be ethical nor legal and any pressure they put on a player to continue playing when he desires not to is only going to alienate the union from players who commiserate with a guy who's body has lost the ability to play the game.

 

Right. In that case, he retires and is done. Like Gil Meche did. 

[Doomtints]

Q:  When do the Twins cut bait with Phil Hughes?

A:  November 2nd, 2020 unless he chooses to retire.

 

Next time ask a harder question.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Q: When do the Twins cut bait with Phil Hughes?

A: November 2nd, 2020

Are we extending him beyond 2019 now?

[mickeymental]

Right after the victory parade?

[Mike Sixel]

Replacing Hughes with a better pitcher from the minors costs the team 500,000 or so. If he's bad, there is no reason to keep him around. Not financial. Not loyalty. Not winning.a Therelso no rain for him to renegotiate.

 

To me, if he's not good, I ask him to go to Rochester. If he won't, let him go.

 

If he shows promise, give him some time in Minnesota, but make the leash short.

[Mr. Brooks]

Right. In that case, he retires and is done. Like Gil Meche did.

Or he negotiates a buyout, like Cuddyer did. Which you claim didn't happen, despite evidence posted here that it did.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Replacing Hughes with a better pitcher from the minors costs the team 500,000 or so. If he's bad, there is no reason to keep him around. Not financial. Not loyalty. Not winning.a Therelso no rain for him to renegotiate.

To me, if he's not good, I ask him to go to Rochester. If he won't, let him go.

If he shows promise, give him some time in Minnesota, but make the leash short.

Yeah, pretty much this. Given how Gonsalves will likely need MLB experience this season and Romero won't be far behind him, that $500k isn't only about the money, it's about pushing guys to Minnesota and improving the team in future seasons. If Hughes can't perform, he's a liability because of the roster spot, not the money involved.

[The Wise One]

 

You can release injured players, you just owe them any guarantees regardless.

https://www.thecubreporter.com/book/export/html/3534

"Outright Release Waivers cannot be requested on a player while he is on the Bereavement List, Military List, Suspended List, Disqualified List, or Ineligible List."

Note the absence of disabled list.

You can't option an injured player to the minors, but of course that doesn't apply to this situation.

And Hughes isn't currently injured to that extent anyway. He's probably dealing with the effects of injury, some permanent, like virtually every other player.

Releasing from the disabled list could be covered elsewhere.  In terms of injury, they thought Hughes  wasn't injured last spring and low and behold he was. I am not good enough to diagnose from afar so I can't say whether or not he is injured or not yet recovered but the 2-4 mph lost on the fastball would say something is not right. All of their electronic monitoring gizmos can tell them how his other pitches compare to pre injury.  Prognosis from TOS is never great. I don't know if that counts as injury if he never fully recovers. The wizards at one Twines Way would know how the insurances work. A few million is still important to them. If insurance does not cover it and the FB sits at 90 or less, Phil could end up the second highest paid cheerleader after Prince Fielder. Remember Fielder was announced as no longer able to play in 2016. Texas did not release him until after the 2017 season. 

[yarnivek1972]

2-4 lost MPH isn’t necesarily indicative of an injury that can be healed with rest, rehab or surgery. It may very well be his “new normal”. Guys lose velocity as they age all the time. Except maybe Nolan Ryan. Doesn’t mean he’s hurt. Just means he needs to figure out how to pitch all over again.

[laloesch]

 

Yeah, pretty much this. Given how Gonsalves will likely need MLB experience this season and Romero won't be far behind him, that $500k isn't only about the money, it's about pushing guys to Minnesota and improving the team in future seasons. If Hughes can't perform, he's a liability because of the roster spot, not the money involved.

 

Agree on this for sure.Hughes is taking up a valuable roster spot which could be handed to a youngster looking to break into the rotation.