When do the Twins cut bait with Phil Hughes?

[KirbyDome89]

Yeah they might as well hold onto him until the end of ST. Absolutely 0 harm in that. 

 

IMO the "ST stats don't really matter," sentiment is starting to become a pretty convenient shield. He hasn't been an effective pitcher for a while now. Poor ST performances at this point should be big red flags, not shoulder shrugs. 

[ashbury]

That would be surprising -- leaving $16.4 mil on the table? Would that be an MLB record?

I am just throwing out an idea in response to the thread starter. And anyway, records are made to be broken.

 

Pick a slightly higher buyout number, then. Leave the second year money on the table, for instance.

 

But there are two additional thoughts behind the wacky idea. First, while I spelled out the obvious benefit to the team, the benefit to the player is to no longer have to jump all the hurdles spelled out by a MLB contract, staying in shape and doing whatever is necessary to remain able to play at a high level, if the outcome has become obviously futile. My staying in the best possible shape is well worth earning $13M to me of course, but maybe another person than I would see it differently at this stage of the career.

 

Second, at the time of his contract extension, much was made of the player's having turned down the chance to pitch an extra inning or so, to invoke an incentive clause. The implication was that the front office viewed this as demonstrating exactly what a high-character guy he was - I think they just came right out and said it. I don't discount the FO's judgement on that, so another financial concession from Hughes would be in keeping with the picture drawn. I would not have made a similar guess on someone like, say, Nolasco, and that's not casting any aspersions at anyone by saying so.

 

Anyway, it's just a fun guess. If I hit the jackpot, someone pay up; if I'm wrong, I'll go back and erase any mention of my having said so. I'm a high-character guy, y'know.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I could see him retiring if he needed another surgery. But in the meantime, I think he would go the Anibal Sanchez route first and ask to go to the minors before he would even think about leaving money on the table to retire. He might also just tell the Twins to release him so he can find another team to give him that opportunity.

 

Unlike Nishioka and Park, Hughes presumably doesn't have any incentive to end his MLB contract to go to Asia.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

That would be surprising -- leaving $16.4 mil on the table? Would that be an MLB record? Even Gil Meche only walked away from $12 mil, and that was primarily just to avoid surgery and rehab in the final year of his deal. Hughes has already had the surgery and rehab -- twice.

EDIT: I guess Ryne Sandberg's first retirement had him forfeiting $16 mil in 1994, which is obviously a lot more in present-day dollars. But I believe Sandberg had some personal issues at the time, and actually un-retired a year and a half later.

Huh, I always think of Meche giving away more than $12m but I suppose you're right. He only walked away from his last season, didn't he?

[Otto von Ballpark]

Huh, I always think of Meche giving away more than $12m but I suppose you're right. He only walked away from his last season, didn't he?

Correct. And Meche had already put off shoulder surgery about as long as possible, so his choice actually wasn't too surprising -- he would have likely needed surgery and rehab to collect that final year salary, and he probably would have been looking at a minimum salary / nonguaranted deal coming back the next year too. So it was a pretty natural spot to retire, given the circumstances.

[notoriousgod71]

Same question- Anibal Sanchez.

[ND-Fan]

I betting he will be here all of spring training its way to early to know what he has for somebody that hasn't pitched in nearly a year and then it had been 9 months before that. His fast ball is now between 90 and 92 still slower than his peak but faster than last year when his fast ball was 87 to 89 miles hour. Other thing is can he learn to pitch with slower stuff and be effective like CC Sabathia has done last couple of years. The Twins hope either can perform where they can keep him on the squad or something else comes up physically that he can go on DL where there insurance can pickup his salary. If not the Twins could cut him or he may retire because he has certain amount of pride where he wants to be able to compete and if he can't he may call it quits. A lot of ifs here and it will have to play out this spring season. This regime can cut him and blame it on the former group for signing Hughes. 

[nicksaviking]

I see a lot of 60 day DL suggestions. He's pitching now, I'm wondering what the basis for any DL stint, let alone a 60 day-er is. I think if they try to shelf him and clear a roster spot for him simply due to ineffectiveness and poor velocity the team will have some questions to answer from both the league and the union.

[notoriousgod71]

 

I see a lot of 60 day DL suggestions. He's pitching now, I'm wondering what the basis for any DL stint, let alone a 60 day-er is. I think if they try to shelf him and clear a roster spot for him simply due to ineffectiveness and poor velocity the team will have some questions to answer from both the league and the union.

 

Whiplash would be quite believable.

[Brandon]

If i went through 2 surgeries like that to try to make it back, I would continue to push into the season with a dl stint or minor league stint or bullpen...

 

I would want to be fully sure i cant come back. Phil should push till next season. If he cant make the team after next spring is the time to see if a negotiated buyout is possible or a release.

 

Phil does seem like the type to do a settlememt but again not this year.

[Vanimal46]

If i went through 2 surgeries like that to try to make it back, I would continue to push into the season with a dl stint or minor league stint or bullpen...

 

I would want to be fully sure i cant come back. Phil should push till next season. If he cant make the team after next spring is the time to see if a negotiated buyout is possible or a release.

 

Phil does seem like the type to do a settlememt but again not this year.

Nicksaviking brings up a good point though. Can you just stash someone on the 60 day DL without a reasonable cause of injury? I mean, he's pitching now and supposedly healthy.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Nicksaviking brings up a good point though. Can you just stash someone on the 60 day DL without a reasonable cause of injury? I mean, he's pitching now and supposedly healthy.

I think you can, IF the player is willing. Just about any underperforming pitcher could theoretically try "rest and rehab" for something, to justify it.

[Riverbrian]

You cut bait with Hughes when you are sure that he can't help the team at any point during the duration of his contract. 

 

 

[Guest]

You cut bait with Hughes when you are sure that he can't help the team MORE THAN LONGIBAL SANCHEZ OR SOMEONE ELSE OFF THE STREET at any point during the duration of his contract.

 

ftfy

[laloesch]

I just can't see the Twins cutting bait with Phil Hughes this season or next.  He will be here through the conclusion of his deal.

[bird]

I don't get the thought that the FO is so misguided that they can't move on and call it a sunk cost if in fact he can't get hitters out. I don't buy the whole "he might be good for a few batters" thing in this case. If he stinks up the rotation, he stinks up the bullpen. Why would you do that to your team?

 

I'm very much rooting for this man.

[The Wise One]

 

I don't agree this is a quick hook. He hasn't been able to effectively get outs for 3 years...

Did you miss that he has been injured for the better part of 3 years?

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Did you miss that he has been injured for the better part of 3 years?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/thoracic-outlet-syndrome/symptoms-causes/syc-20353988

 

It’s not clear that he’s not still injured. Things I’ve read all have varying levels of ambiguity. TOS is not like Tommy John where it’s easily diagnosed and the surgery is somewhat common.

 

In my mind, until he can prove that he can pitch, he can’t. It’s too bad it’s caused by injury, but results are important.

 

To be clear, Joe Mauer was one of the best catchers in the history of baseball for 5+ years and earned a long leash.

 

Hughes has had one good season, and a couple ok ones.

[The Wise One]

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/thoracic-outlet-syndrome/symptoms-causes/syc-20353988

 

It’s not clear that he’s not still injured. Things I’ve read all have varying levels of ambiguity. TOS is not like Tommy John where it’s easily diagnosed and the surgery is somewhat common.

 

In my mind, until he can prove that he can pitch, he can’t. It’s too bad it’s caused by injury, but results are important.

 

To be clear, Joe Mauer was one of the best catchers in the history of baseball for 5+ years and earned a long leash.

 

Hughes has had one good season, and a couple ok ones.

Results are important. As is understanding the results could be a result of the disease process. Long leash, short leash whatever, somehow people remain oblivious to injury has an effect on result. If there is not blood everywhere people do not seem get the concept that a player has health issues.

[Vanimal46]

I don't get the thought that the FO is so misguided that they can't move on and call it a sunk cost if in fact he can't get hitters out. I don't buy the whole "he might be good for a few batters" thing in this case. If he stinks up the rotation, he stinks up the bullpen. Why would you do that to your team?

 

I'm very much rooting for this man.

Concur, bird. Except for very much rooting for him... Sorry. I admit he's the Danny Santana for me this year. I'm not going to be happy until he's totally out of the picture in this organization.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Results are important. As is understanding the results could be a result of the disease process. Long leash, short leash whatever, somehow people remain oblivious to injury has an effect on result. If there is not blood everywhere people do not seem get the concept that a player has health issues.

agreed, point being, not all injuries can be solved. How long do you wait, especially with an injury that has such an unclear diagnosis and path to recovery?

[The Wise One]

 

agreed, point being, not all injuries can be solved. How long do you wait, especially with an injury that has such an unclear diagnosis and path to recovery?

however long the contract goes for. That is why they call it a contract.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

however long the contract goes for. That is why they call it a contract.

of course Hughes gets paid, at some point the roster spot becomes more valuable being filled by an effective player making MLB min than what you owe Hughes....

[The Wise One]

 

of course Hughes gets paid, at some point the roster spot becomes more valuable being filled by an effective player making MLB min than what you owe Hughes....

I would think the union would have something to say about waiving the wounded

[Battle ur tail off]

DFA as soon as possible. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

I would think the union would have something to say about waiving the wounded

You can release injured players, you just owe them any guarantees regardless.

 

https://www.thecubreporter.com/book/export/html/3534

 

"Outright Release Waivers cannot be requested on a player while he is on the Bereavement List, Military List, Suspended List, Disqualified List, or Ineligible List."

 

Note the absence of disabled list.

 

You can't option an injured player to the minors, but of course that doesn't apply to this situation.

 

And Hughes isn't currently injured to that extent anyway. He's probably dealing with the effects of injury, some permanent, like virtually every other player.

[ashbury]

effects of injury, some permanent, like virtually every other player.

A point too infrequently recognized.

[Thegrin]

This is baseball.  A player is not out after 2 strikes. Every year is a new year.  Mauer proved that.  This is baseball. Every throw is a fresh chance.  I rookie league pitcher can strike out a top hitter.  A pitcher can make a perfect pitch, inches off the plate, and the batter can still reach out and hit a home run. This is baseball and Hughes has been a superior pitcher.   This is a new year and under new circumstance, the results can be different.  This is BASEBALL.

 

Also, Hughes has always been a control pitcher.  Control pitchers are better able to focus, than the average pitcher. They see their spot and hit their spot.  This implies that Hughes should be able to adjust to his current velocity, if his arm is sound.  Give him time and he can make a turnaround like Gibson did last year.

Who saw that coming ??  

[Brandon Warne]

 

While I agree that it's premature to discuss this, for the sake of discussion I'll toss out this prediction: at the end of Spring Training, Hughes negotiates a buyout that is favorable to the team, say $10M, relieving them of the need to cut him outright, and he retires.

 

Contracts can't be renegotiated. There's no reason for Hughes to do this. 

[ashbury]

Contracts can't be renegotiated. There's no reason for Hughes to do this. 

Perhaps things have changed since 2016. http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/images/players/head_shot/150212.jpg

https://www.mlb.com/news/michael-cuddyer-mets-reach-buyout-agreement/c-165936318