EliminaTwins

[Guest]

After 90+ games, the Twins have a winning record. I don't think they're yet playoff contenders, but they're letting young players play and many of them are developing nicely. However, to read the posts on TD, it sounds like they've got a team of crap. Seriously, I just looked at the roster and found maybe seven players that haven't had a forum or series of posts calling for their DFA, demotion or retirement, or who otherwise haven't been the subject of a dialogue with a title like "Why is He on the Team?!"

 

Here's my count: Hildenberger, Rogers, Kintzler, Santana, Dozier, Sano, Kepler. If you want, you can add Mauer, but that might require some situational forgetfulness. Anyway, add him, that makes eight. It may be generous to include some of these eight on the "not complained about" list, but this count leaves seventeen players whom the screaming masses - well, actually, TD posters, who are probably smarter than the average Bear or Cub about baseball - would like to drive out of town on a rail, without regard to replacement.

 

This is getting wearing, about as much as the regurgitated "Pohlads are cheap" comments. What are people comparing these players to? Sure, it's not a team of superstars, but it's full of developing, talented players. Sure, it would be great to sign a bunch of big time free agents and trade for several established stars, but haven't you noticed that the core of most of the good teams these days, e.g., Dodgers, Cubs, Astros, Yankees, is made up of home grown players and players who weren't considered valuable by their initial teams? Haven't you also noticed that teams that went out and signed a bunch of free agents or traded for a bunch of established players have failed with that strategy, e.g., Padres, Tigers, White Sox, a few of whom "won" the offseason the last few years?

 

I understand that young players have to take their knocks, but I don't understand the speed with which they seem to permanently fall into disfavor by not yet competing for All Star berths.

 

What do you think?

[Han Joelo]

I think you should take about Dozier, Santana, and Kintzler off your list. They are old, lucky, and likely to fall off a metaphorical cliff soon.

 

I love this wacky team. Except Pressly. Today, anyway.

[Vanimal46]

That's what happens when hundreds, yes, hundreds of people post on this site. Everyone has their favorites. Everyone has their scapegoats.

[Linus]

It's the internet. If everyone was rational nobody would tune in. For the record I hate the whole "they aren't as good as their record" meme. Three are as good as their record. That's how things are accounted for.

[Craig Arko]

I think it's a game. It's entertainment. Weight things accordingly.

[Han Joelo]

The same geniuses that stole Alex Meyer from the Twins and saddled them with Santiago just replaced an injured Cameron Maybin with Shane Robinson. Yes, that Shane.  Tough biz.

[jimmer]

 

The same geniuses that stole Alex Meyer from the Twins and saddled them with Santiago just replaced an injured Cameron Maybin with Shane Robinson. Yes, that Shane.  Tough biz.

I've seen Robinson play with the Bees quite a few times this year.

[kab21]

I think the site has been overwhelmingly negative despite a winning season so far and contending for a playoff spot. 

For example we have been reading for two months that the Twins shouldn't trade any prospects (a majority of the site) for any help. Not even guys in the org's 20+ prospects for a competent starting pitcher.

Nobody wants to sell the farm for a rental but at some point this team has to bring in a competent starting pitcher and bullpen arm. The Twins are 27th in team ERA despite having two very good starters and two very good reliever. Getting a 6+ ERA from two rotation spots and multiple spots in the bullpen. Getting anyone decent is a huge upgrade over that.

[spinowner]

 

Nobody wants to sell the farm for a rental but at some point this team has to bring in a competent starting pitcher and bullpen arm. 

I agree. But I don't think now is the "at some point" because the return in terms of our position to succeed in the postseason would not justify the outlay in terms of future talent.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I agree. But I don't think now is the "at some point" because the return in terms of our position to succeed in the postseason would not justify the outlay in terms of future talent.

Maybe there's a trade opportunity that does improve our position to succeed in the postseason and does justify the outlay in terms of future talent. Would you then be in favor?

[Twodogs]

Yeah I think a lot of the complaining starts with the pitching staff, I mean where's Tommy Milone when you need him The majority of the rest of the complaints are geared towards the young up and coming stars. (Rosario his Fielding miscues, Polanco his recent mistakes, Buxton his hitting woes, etc... and then the bullpen.) The young up and coming stars are going to make mistakes, that's part of the game, you just hope they learn from them and get better. It's watching the growing pains of what could be a good team. A lot of the reaction is also coming because at times they play the game like they have arrived and are ready to challenge for post season greatness and then at other times they play like they are 23 and 24 year olds in MLB. So develop pitching, or bring in some pitching and watch these guys eventually fight for greatness. I wonder what these threads would have looked like in '83, '84, '85 the years when Hrbek, Gaetti, Bruno, and Puckett were coming through as youngsters. I'm sure Kirby and the crew would have had a lot of criticism back then. And if only they could pick up Ron Guidry and Kieth Hernandez they then have a legit shot at winning it all:) Plus back then you didn't get to watch all 162 games on Fox Sports, you often listened on the radio or read the result in the newspaper. So a lot less quick emotion responses.

[Guest]

That's what happens when hundreds, yes, hundreds of people post on this site. Everyone has their favorites. Everyone has their scapegoats.

Fair enough, I have my scapegoats, too. I was probably as definitive as anyone that Terry Ryan needed to go and I'm unable to identify any positive impact from Neil Allen. Also, painful as it is, after watching him since he played shortstop at the U for Dick Siebert, the best coach I ever had the pleasure of knowing, I don't think Molitor is a good manager, leader or fit for this team, although I don't think he's terrible. And there are players on the team who don't seem to add much value today or in the future (hello, Mr. Belisle). But I don't see how we get to a place where a vocal subset of educated fans want to just get rid of more than half of this roster.

[Riverbrian]

I think it's the nature of the beast and once I came to the conclusion that my ideas were as goofy as anyone else it became easier to let others express theirs. 

 

However... I don't have much tolerance when posters express their opinions with embellishments like hoping they die... or calling them worthless or horrible for lack of better adjectives. 

 

If I could hope for anything... I'd like dissenters to be more respectful and less like cyber bullies.

 

These players are human beings and they probably read the comments. The pressure is enormous, the prize is large and the margins are razor thin.

 

Imagine that they are reading the comment before you post it... they probably are. 

 

That's my wish

 

 

[Twodogs]

I hope they aren't, I'd view it as a distraction. If I were playing I wouldn't look at these things ever. JMO

 

And I agree, none of this stuff is life or death, no one should wish anyone to die, even though I'm sure most people aren't being literal. But I agree.

[kab21]

 

I agree. But I don't think now is the "at some point" because the return in terms of our position to succeed in the postseason would not justify the outlay in terms of future talent.

I will repeat - Nobody is talking about a blockbuster for a rental. Some are talking about a very good controllable starter. But I am directly talking about trading the #15-ish org prospect for a competent starter but everyone just replies 'can't compete in the postseason, no reason to make any trades'. And as of a week ago people are still speculating what Ervin Santana can fetch. The Twins are 1/2 GB right now.

[Bill Brown69]

I have contemplated deleting this site from my favorites multiple times because of the negativity.

 

162 games x 3hours per game = 486 hours a year of either enjoyment of a team that might win or dread of a team that will probably lose. 4 World series wins only add up to maybe 16 hours of enjoyment and even if you add 100 hours of pure euphoria after you have less satisfaction than the 9 years winning record out of 10.(01-10) but many if not most posters on here would rather bash somebody/anybody than remember how much fun it was to watch/listen during those 10 years. No, there was not much postseason success but it was 486 hours of fun x 10 years. Everyone has their version of the magic elixir that would have put us over the top but remember the Braves had Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz for 10 years and only won 1. 

 

Trust me the WS euphoria wears off real quick when you have to put up with 1993-2000. They were a hell of a lot more painful than the last 6 years.

[twinsnorth49]

But I don't see how we get to a place where a vocal subset of educated fans want to just get rid of more than half of this roster.

Impatience really. This team lost 90+ games 4 years in a row during the last 6 years, followed by a brief reprieve, only to be followed up by losing over 100 the very next year.

 

I don't think very many people around here are suggesting half the roster gets culled. I think a lot are just eager to see the new regime change direction from the Ryan era as quickly as possible. A few things this year have the stink of same old, same old to them and increases the impatience even higher, justified or not.

 

I think the season is turning out trickier than maybe Falvine imagined, I don't think they anticipated being in contention by the 3rd week of July. Instead of being able to properly evaluate a larger portion of the organisation, they are caught somewhat by also feeling the need to stay in contention, something the fanbase definitely wants.

 

Personally, from a player perspective I only have issues with the pen for the most part. My bigger issue this year has been with roster contruction and player usage, which isn't really an indictment of the players themselves, simply the positions many of them have been miscast in.

[DJSim22]

 

Fair enough, I have my scapegoats, too. I was probably as definitive as anyone that Terry Ryan needed to go and I'm unable to identify any positive impact from Neil Allen. Also, painful as it is, after watching him since he played shortstop at the U for Dick Siebert, the best coach I ever had the pleasure of knowing, I don't think Molitor is a good manager, leader or fit for this team, although I don't think he's terrible. And there are players on the team who don't seem to add much value today or in the future (hello, Mr. Belisle). But I don't see how we get to a place where a vocal subset of educated fans want to just get rid of more than half of this roster.

 

I still don't get the Belisle angst.  Take away three horrible games where he gave up 12 runs in 1 2/3 innings, he has pitched 35 1/3 innings with 10 runs for a 2.55 ERA.  He still could be a trade chip at the deadline as well.  

[Guest]

I still don't get the Belisle angst.  Take away three horrible games where he gave up 12 runs in 1 2/3 innings, he has pitched 35 1/3 innings with 10 runs for a 2.55 ERA.  He still could be a trade chip at the deadline as well.

 

I agree that it's overstated and he's had some good games, but he's been essentially replacement level and does nothing for the future. It would be fantastic to get something for him in a trade, and I suspect that's been the long term plan, but the return will likely be much less than what was hoped for in March.

[JustinCB]

I think you should take about Dozier, Santana, and Kintzler off your list. They are old, lucky, and likely to fall off a metaphorical cliff soon.

I love this wacky team. Except Pressly. Today, anyway.

I like the idea of cashing in on Kintzler and especially Santana.....because they've been good! But it's a tough racket and good is ephemeral for guys with their profile. There's still teams out there that haven't figured that out yet, or just don't care (hello Angels, hello Dbacks, braves? Mets?). They're both controllable but not guys you can expect when Sano, Kepler, (hopefully) Buxton hit their stride. Could probably get some pieces back that would be though. I think a top 50 and maybe a low top 100 for Santana considering he's signed reasonably for a couple more years could be had. Maybe a low 100 type for Kintzler. Market doesn't seem like itd be great for Dozier at the moment so maybe hold onto him for now. I gurantee if they could get a good prospect starter who's close back we'd all rather be watching that than say Gibson anyway, regardless of the results. Basically what I'm saying is let's cut Gibson.....oops! There we go with the negging again!

[KirbyDome89]

Using a W-L record to measure pitching performance is thrown around as a joke on this site. I'm not sure why the overall team record is immune from same breakdown and scrutiny. 

 

And LOL at making negative comments about disliking the negativity of others. Hilarious....

[old nurse]

 

I will repeat - Nobody is talking about a blockbuster for a rental. Some are talking about a very good controllable starter. But I am directly talking about trading the #15-ish org prospect for a competent starter but everyone just replies 'can't compete in the postseason, no reason to make any trades'. And as of a week ago people are still speculating what Ervin Santana can fetch. The Twins are 1/2 GB right now.

Well, Alex Meyer has fallen to a 15 ish prospect . The world  seams underwhelmed by that trade.

[spinowner]

 

Maybe there's a trade opportunity that does improve our position to succeed in the postseason and does justify the outlay in terms of future talent. Would you then be in favor?

Of course. I'm in favor of any trade that improves the state of the organization. But is it likely that another team would make a trade that does both of those things for our team? I really doubt it.

[Riverbrian]

 

I hope they aren't, I'd view it as a distraction. If I were playing I wouldn't look at these things ever. JMO

And I agree, none of this stuff is life or death, no one should wish anyone to die, even though I'm sure most people aren't being literal. But I agree.

 

A rare individual won't listen in... when others are talking about them.

 

 

[kab21]

 

Well, Alex Meyer has fallen to a 15 ish prospect . The world  seams underwhelmed by that trade.

A) Santiago was actually pitching well until the extra inning game where I believe he got hurt.

Meyer has 67IP with a 5.6 BB/9. I need to see a little (actually a lot) more before I use hindsight on this trade.

[kab21]

 

I like the idea of cashing in on Kintzler and especially Santana.....because they've been good! But it's a tough racket and good is ephemeral for guys with their profile. There's still teams out there that haven't figured that out yet, or just don't care (hello Angels, hello Dbacks, braves? Mets?). They're both controllable but not guys you can expect when Sano, Kepler, (hopefully) Buxton hit their stride. Could probably get some pieces back that would be though. I think a top 50 and maybe a low top 100 for Santana considering he's signed reasonably for a couple more years could be had. Maybe a low 100 type for Kintzler. Market doesn't seem like itd be great for Dozier at the moment so maybe hold onto him for now. I gurantee if they could get a good prospect starter who's close back we'd all rather be watching that than say Gibson anyway, regardless of the results. Basically what I'm saying is let's cut Gibson.....oops! There we go with the negging again!

Are you actually talking about trading 2 players at the Twins greatest positions of need when the Twins are 1/2 GB in the Central? 

It is one thing to not make a significant acquisition at the deadline but it is quite another to sabotage a contending team (for the playoffs). Sure they likely aren't beating the Astros but to sell at this point would be an awful move as far as the clubhouse and the fans are concerned. 

This is one of my biggest frustrations with the board right now. Everybody wants to play for 2019 or later despite being 1/2 game back.

[goulik]

In my experience negativity does not produce the results the person being negative desires. It just drags people and discussions down to the lowest common denominator and leaves everyone involved feeling unfulfilled. That doesn't mean you can't look at things with a critical eye and examine how to improve things. Let's be honest, this team has some serious flaws! But what team doesn't? We have these grand concepts of what a championship team should look like and all the while flawed teams are winning championships.

 

Where are the Cubs today? Man, after last year, I thought they had a Dynasty type team... I guess it was the Astros...until next year...Heck, the Astros haven't even won the WS yet this year. Maybe the Cubs will surge back and win Back to back. We don't know yet... Who was the favorite in '87? '91? There is a potential thread topic... How often does the best team with the fewest "flaws" win?

 

To be honest, I like our young flawed team. I like a lot of players on it. There is a player on it that I have not liked and have not understood why so many posters supported him the past 3-4 years. He is still on the team and has lost pretty much all of his supporters but as long as he is on the team I will hope he turns things around. Honestly, I think many here have been too hard on him this year.

[JustinCB]

Are you actually talking about trading 2 players at the Twins greatest positions of need when the Twins are 1/2 GB in the Central? 

It is one thing to not make a significant acquisition at the deadline but it is quite another to sabotage a contending team (for the playoffs). Sure they likely aren't beating the Astros but to sell at this point would be an awful move as far as the clubhouse and the fans are concerned. 

This is one of my biggest frustrations with the board right now. Everybody wants to play for 2019 or later despite being 1/2 game back.

I think, depending on what they could get back, it could be done while making them only marginally worse! Rogers can close, if they get a close starting prospect back he can take Santanas spot, and adding 2 or 3 top 100 types gets them close to having a top tier system again. Just think a bubble team like this should stay open minded. If the only thing outta the current crop that really ends up working out is Sano, they're gonna be starting all over again before too long.

[kab21]

 

I think, depending on what they could get back, it could be done while making them only marginally worse! Rogers can close, if they get a close starting prospect back he can take Santanas spot, and adding 2 or 3 top 100 types gets them close to having a top tier system again. Just think a bubble team like this should stay open minded. If the only thing outta the current crop that really ends up working out is Sano, they're gonna be starting all over again before too long.

If somebody could take Santana's spot w/o a big drop in performance then he wouldn't be getting traded for Santana. A name suggested as a possible ballpark value for Ervin is Justus Sheffield. He has made 17 AA starts and would most likely bomb in the majors if promoted now. That is a big drop in performance.

Rogers could take Kintzler's spot but who takes Rogers' spot? The Twins already have MASSIVE problems getting to the 8th/9th innings. This trade would further deplete an already really weak bullpen. The Twins need to add a RP instead of subtract.

[Winston Smith]

My opinion is only worth the paper this isn't written on but comments should never start with, "Everybody..." or "Nobody..." !