Byron Buxton?

[TheLeviathan]

I love what I'm seeing.  I hope the new regime has less rigidity than the Twins have seemed to have for the last few decades.

[Parker Hageman]

Prior to the Fangraphs' article, I pointed out on Twitter that Buxton wasn't going back to the toe-tap with two strikes like he did earlier in the year. 

 

https://twitter.com/ParkerHageman/status/771728670633238533

 

When you look at his spray charts in Rochester the second go-round, you see him pulling the ball more and in the air. He was swinging with intent, like we have seen now.

[bird]

 

I can't say I heard it, but hopefully it means they are going to stop trying to turn him into Willie Wilson let him be Willie Mays instead.  He's a 5-tool guy. Let him use all 5, instead of trying to force the one tool that's most obvious at his age.

 

 

I guess I missed all the evidence that the Twins had a deliberate plan in place to turn him into Willie Wilson. Was Willie Wilson a crappy bunter?

[KirbyDome89]

 

I guess I missed all the evidence that the Twins had a deliberate plan in place to turn him into Willie Wilson. Was Willie Wilson a crappy bunter?

He must've decided to make all the adjustments to his hitting stance and weight transfer by himself. But, yes, kudos to the Twins for being "savvy," enough to allow him to return to what made him the #2 overall pick. I'm certain they don't want to self sabotage, but altering mechanics before a player of that talent sees the field in the minor leagues is troublesome. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

but altering mechanics before a player of that talent sees the field in the minor leagues is troublesome.

Actually, that's pretty common for prep players. I'm not saying the Twins have done Buxton any favors but tweaking the approach of a raw prep player from a rural school is to be expected.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Actually, that's pretty common for prep players. I'm not saying the Twins have done Buxton any favors but tweaking the approach of a raw prep player from a rural school is to be expected.

Agreed, small adjustments happen frequently. My point was they drafted him for his natural talents, he was a consensus top player in all the minors, and before he even saw the field they're making significant changes to his batting style. Its one thing to tweak the level of hand placement for a 5th round C- prospect, its another to overhaul the hitting approach of a superstar prospect before you know it won't translate at that level. I realize there are no stats on this, but I have a hard time believing all organizations make those kind of changes to players of Buxton's talent before they have a chance to prove its necessary. 

[gunnarthor]

 

Agreed, small adjustments happen frequently. My point was they drafted him for his natural talents, he was a consensus top player in all the minors, and before he even saw the field they're making significant changes to his batting style. Its one thing to tweak the level of hand placement for a 5th round C- prospect, its another to overhaul the hitting approach of a superstar prospect before you know it won't translate at that level. I realize there are no stats on this, but I have a hard time believing all organizations make those kind of changes to players of Buxton's talent before they have a chance to prove its necessary. 

My understanding, which could be wrong, was that many HS players have longer swings than practical b/c the HS pitchers don't throw as fast.  So young professional hitters have to learn to quicken their swing, usually by quieting down their mechanics.  I don't know if that's what happened with Buxton.  I do remember Morneau and Kubel both going through that.  I don't think it's surprising at all that Buxton's HS swing would not be effective at the ML level.

[Brock Beauchamp]

My understanding, which could be wrong, was that many HS players have longer swings than practical b/c the HS pitchers don't throw as fast. So young professional hitters have to learn to quicken their swing, usually by quieting down their mechanics. I don't know if that's what happened with Buxton. I do remember Morneau and Kubel both going through that. I don't think it's surprising at all that Buxton's HS swing would not be effective at the ML level.

This is my understanding as well. It's fine to have a long swing in high school when you're facing low 80s fastballs with no movement.

 

That approach may even succeed through low A ball.

 

But a smart team gets out in front of that and fixes it immediately.

 

Again, not defending the Twins' treatment of Buxton.

[Jham]

The Twins and Buxton were/are tinkering with his swing.  This is pretty common when a player struggles as much as Buxton has with MLB pitching despite hitting well in the minors.  You have to try some things to gain some success and confidence.  Whatever works, as they say.

[Brock Beauchamp]

The Twins and Buxton were/are tinkering with his swing. This is pretty common when a player struggles as much as Buxton has with MLB pitching despite hitting well in the minors. You have to try some things to gain some success and confidence. Whatever works, as they say.

I have fewer issues with the Twins tweaking Buxton's swing than I do their refusal to let him stick at a level and refine that approach.

 

If you're tweaking a guy's approach and/or swing, he needs more than three weeks to adopt the change.

[KirbyDome89]

Again, I'm not against alterations. I know they're often implemented and many are successful. I just don't see the initial elimination of the leg kick in favor of a toe tap and closing his stance as a tweak. IMO thats more of an overhaul, which I would be fine with if he had shown it wasn't going to work. Making preemptive changes to a talent like Buxton seems like the application of a one size fits all approach. I think its funny that we're seeing him at his best right now, and its because he has gone back to the leg kick and stance that he had when he was drafted. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

Making preemptive changes to a talent like Buxton seems like the application of a one size fits all approach.

I don't disagree with your point at large about the toe tap but I take issue with the one size fits all approach.

 

The Twins have several good veteran and young hitters. How many use the same toe tap? How many are pull hitters? How many are oppo hitters? How many use the entire field? Ground balls? Fly balls? Discipline?

 

The "square peg, round hole" argument doesn't carry much weight with me. Have the Twins done all they could to ensure success, especially with Buxton? No, and I think that's a discussion worth talking about... But I simply don't see the evidence that they're trying to force all hitters to be the same guy.

[Twodogs]

 

The Twins and Buxton were/are tinkering with his swing.  This is pretty common when a player struggles as much as Buxton has with MLB pitching despite hitting well in the minors.  You have to try some things to gain some success and confidence.  Whatever works, as they say.

I remember when Tom Kelly referred to David Ortiz swing as a slow pitch softball swing.  I guess you have to see if it works or not before you start changing things.

[KirbyDome89]

 

I don't disagree with your point at large about the toe tap but I take issue with the one size fits all approach.

The Twins have several good veteran and young hitters. How many use the same toe tap? How many are pull hitters? How many are oppo hitters? How many use the entire field? Ground balls? Fly balls? Discipline?

The "square peg, round hole" argument doesn't carry much weight with me. Have the Twins done all they could to ensure success, especially with Buxton? No, and I think that's a discussion worth talking about... But I simply don't see the evidence that they're trying to force all hitters to be the same guy.

When you draft a player and your default position is to close off their batting stance and replace the leg kick with a toe tap before he has played a game I would say that is forcing a player into a mold rather than looking to mold a player, which is a one size fits all approach. Like I said, small tweaks occur all the time but this goes beyond that. IMO that is textbook "square peg, round hole." 

[Brock Beauchamp]

When you draft a player and your default position is to close off their batting stance and replace the leg kick with a toe tap before he has played a game I would say that is forcing a player into a mold rather than looking to mold a player, which is a one size fits all approach. Like I said, small tweaks occur all the time but this goes beyond that. IMO that is textbook "square peg, round hole."

But as been said, prep players often have bad habits because their talent allows bad habits to thrive against massively inferior opponents.

 

Is it really "round peg square hole" when amateur mistakes are altered when a person enters the professional arena?

 

For example, I regularly review code from young developers. Does their code technically work? Yes. Does their code play in a professional workflow? Absolutely ****ing not. And we help those developers untrain those terrible habits. It's part of the job to use established knowledge for the benefit of an inexperienced person.

[Rosterman]

Looks like Chad Allen will be joining the major league coaching staff for the month!

[KirbyDome89]

 

But as been said, prep players often have bad habits because their talent allows bad habits to thrive against massively inferior opponents.

Is it really "round peg square hole" when amateur mistakes are altered when a person enters the professional arena?

For example, I regularly review code from young developers. Does their code technically work? Yes. Does their code play in a professional workflow? Absolutely ****ing not. And we help those developers untrain those terrible habits. It's part of the job to use established knowledge for the benefit of an inexperienced person.

Again, I'm not arguing that prep players don't ever have flaws that require tweaking, but i do think those cases should be handled on an individual basis and it shouldn't be assumed that every player entering the organization needs a complete makeover. Like I said previously, there is a massive difference between minor tweaking to help timing or delivery and a complete overhaul of mechanics. I think you're right, I believe the Twins looked at Buxton, saw mechanics that they didn't like, and decided to make changes before he started rookie ball. I also believe thats a perfect example of the one size fits all approach I was talking about. If you assume the prospects you acquire need to be "fixed," before they even play a rookie league game, and then make changes in their mechanics based on that assumption, you're applying a one size fits all approach. Again, there is also a difference between molding a player, and forcing a player to fit a mold. Given the timing and lack of experience Buxton had before changes were implemented, I have a hard time viewing the situation as anything other than the Twins trying to push Buxton into a mold.The basis of the entire argument seems to be the presupposition that Buxton had flawed hitting mechanics. I reject the notion that his mechanics were flawed to the point that an overhaul was necessary, and I certainly am not on board with the line of thinking that led to the decision being made. I understand where you're coming from and totally agree that many prospects do need to make adjusts, multiple times, at many levels. However, I just don't see this as a defense for overhauling a prospect, especially one as talented as Buxton,  before they've had a chance to even play rookie ball. I'm not against the idea of adjustments, its the approach with which they seem to be made that bothers me. 

 

 

[big dog]

Where did you read that they changed his approach before he even played rookie ball, as you state above?

[Mike Sixel]

I just hope this is a glimpse of what we will see in the future.

[jimmer]

 

Where did you read that they changed his approach before he even played rookie ball, as you state above?

 

 

'Buxton had a leg kick in high school, which the Twins muted upon their drafting of him in favor of the organization’s go-to “front foot down early” hitting approach. '

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/instagraphs/byron-buxton-brought-his-leg-kick-back-to-minnesota/

[Doomtints]

 

Just curious what changed with Byron Buxton. I know September baseball is not as competitive if teams are out of the playoff race. But it sure is nice to see him finally playing well and hopefully gaining confidence for next year.

 

It's a small sample size.  Not saying he HASN'T turned the corner, but let's wait a bit before judging one way or the other.  

[Doomtints]

 

For example, I regularly review code from young developers. Does their code technically work? Yes. Does their code play in a professional workflow? Absolutely ****ing not. And we help those developers untrain those terrible habits. It's part of the job to use established knowledge for the benefit of an inexperienced person.

 

Point made, though coding is a bit different.  

 

There are good reasons to force a player to change his mechanics.  Mark Prior's bad mechanics that he learned in college were not fixed and he blew out his arm.  The mechanics were not fixed because he was dominant.  People let him be.  I think you can make a similar argument for the early Francisco Liriano.

 

If the player's mechanics are going to result in a personal injury, you fix the problems.  For someone like Buxton, I would let him do his thing until he stumbles.  Sure, offer ideas and different approaches but allow him to use them as he sees fit.  Don't dictate that he change until his approach stops working unless his mechanics are going to cause injury.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Point made, though coding is a bit different.  

 

There are good reasons to force a player to change his mechanics.  Mark Prior's bad mechanics that he learned in college were not fixed and he blew out his arm.  The mechanics were not fixed because he was dominant.  People let him be.  I think you can make a similar argument for the early Francisco Liriano.

 

If the player's mechanics are going to result in a personal injury, you fix the problems.  For someone like Buxton, I would let him do his thing until he stumbles.  Sure, offer ideas and different approaches but allow him to use them as he sees fit.  Don't dictate that he change until his approach stops working unless his mechanics are going to cause injury.

Coding is definitely different, just an example I have first-hand knowledge of.

 

As for the last paragraph, what happens if Buxton tears it up through high A and then stumbles because there's a hitch in his swing or it's too long?

 

Then you've spent 2+ years allowing a player to entrench a bad habit and have to spend a bunch more time forcing him to unlearn that habit. And that player now has to fix his swing in a shorter period of time and against better competition than if you addressed the problem the moment he entered professional ball.

 

Again, I'm not saying the Twins have done right by Buxton but I generally dislike blanket statements that can be summed up as "the Twins always do this and it's wrong". It's more complicated than that.

[HitInAPinch]

 

'Buxton had a leg kick in high school, which the Twins muted upon their drafting of him in favor of the organization’s go-to “front foot down early” hitting approach. '

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/instagraphs/byron-buxton-brought-his-leg-kick-back-to-minnesota/

I think people are still getting to wrapped up in the "5 tool" thingy.  That was a rating based on his High School play and "projectables".  And I believe people are also getting too caught up in "THE LEG KICK". 

 

There's been lot of weird looking batting approaches in the history of baseball.   Like HOFer  Rod Carew.  The important things are:

1. are they repeatable
2. are they successful

I'm liking what I'm seeing in Buxton right now:  A repeatable approach.

No   toe-tapping, twisty-footy  thingy.     Successful?  So far, so good!

[Doomtints]

 

Coding is definitely different, just an example I have first-hand knowledge of.

 

As for the last paragraph, what happens if Buxton tears it up through high A and then stumbles because there's a hitch in his swing or it's too long?

 

Then you've spent 2+ years allowing a player to entrench a bad habit and have to spend a bunch more time forcing him to unlearn that habit. And that player now has to fix his swing in a shorter period of time and against better competition than if you addressed the problem the moment he entered professional ball.

 

Again, I'm not saying the Twins have done right by Buxton but I generally dislike blanket statements that can be summed up as "the Twins always do this and it's wrong". It's more complicated than that.

 

I don't disagree.  I would say that you can still teach different mechanics while letting him do his thing.  When he stumbles, then, there is less of a learning curve.  The conversation becomes, "Hey, remember that thing I showed you?  Let's try that this week."

 

And who knows, maybe this is how it went down.

[Jham]

Ok, for 1, Brian Dozier credits getting his toe down early to the turning point in his career. Having Buxton try it while developing isn't the worst thing.

 

2nd he still gets his foot down early. He just adds a leg kick before.

 

3rd, to me the biggest reason for his recent success is his change in approach. He's swinging early and being more selective. Either pitch recognition is better, or more likely, he's anticipating/guessing better.

 

4 this steak of success is nice but not likely to last. Pitchers will adjust. Then we'll see whether Buxton has really improved past Aaron Hicks.

[jimmer]

 

I think people are still getting to wrapped up in the "5 tool" thingy.  That was a rating based on his High School play and "projectables".  And I believe people are also getting too caught up in "THE LEG KICK". 

 

There's been lot of weird looking batting approaches in the history of baseball.   Like HOFer  Rod Carew.  The important things are:

1. are they repeatable
2. are they successful

I'm liking what I'm seeing in Buxton right now:  A repeatable approach.

No   toe-tapping, twisty-footy  thingy.     Successful?  So far, so good!

yeah,  I was just answering a question :-)

[TheTruth]

Maybe the Twins should reach out the Blue Jays and offer to clean up Josh Donaldsons leg kick

[bird]

 

Maybe the Twins should reach out the Blue Jays and offer to clean up Josh Donaldsons leg kick

 

 

Maybe Josh Donaldson will reach out to Brian Dozier and convince him to ditch his stupid toe tap.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Do I need to start putting sarcasm emoji's?

 

I expect more from you people.

even I got the sarcasm on that one, and generally it would be fair to call me obtuse in regards to poster sarcasm