Nobody cares, but.... Plouffe is doing well post-DL

[adorduan]

Trevor Plouffe has quietly been pretty good since returning from his injury.  .305/.383/.877 in 86 at bats.

[gunnarthor]

Yeah, probably a little too late but it's been nice to see.  

[ThejacKmp]

Inexcusable they didn't move him or Suzuki. Get some value. My worry is they're going to extend an offer to Plouffe in the offseason.

[gunnarthor]

 

Inexcusable they didn't move him or Suzuki. Get some value. My worry is they're going to extend an offer to Plouffe in the offseason.

Let's see who the new GM is first before we worry about how the new GM will construct the roster.

[Craig Arko]

Let's see who the new GM is first before we worry about how the new GM will construct the roster.

That's crazy talk.

[adorduan]

 

Inexcusable they didn't move him or Suzuki. Get some value. My worry is they're going to extend an offer to Plouffe in the offseason.

They didn't have any value.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

They didn't have any value.

So at least we agree bringing them back for 2017 is not a winning option, then.

 

But yes, Plouffe is seeing the ball and hitting line drives very well right now.

[Mike Sixel]

The only way I'd bring him back is if they move Sano to DH full time. Then I'd consider a 1 year deal. But, if Sano is your 3B, Plouffe has to go, imo.

[jorgenswest]

I think they need to spend the money Plouffe would have received in arbitration on pitching. If they take him to arbitration, his contract won't be tradeable. They shouldn't offer him arbitration.

[Mr. Brooks]

So the reason I was told that Vargas had to go down was because we had to showcase Plouffe for a trade.

Then Plouffe plays really well, and still has zero trade value.

Something is conflicting here.

If no amount of success was going to give him trade value, why was he ever playing?

[jorgenswest]

Was there a report that Plouffe cleared waivers? He could have been claimed by a team with no intention of making an offer.

[Mr. Brooks]

Was there a report that Plouffe cleared waivers? He could have been claimed by a team with no intention of making an offer.

So let that team have him.

[Badsmerf]

Who has a higher war next year at 3b, plouffe or sano?

[Willihammer]

Was there a report that Plouffe cleared waivers? He could have been claimed by a team with no intention of making an offer.

I happened to catch RA on "Inside Twins" last Sunday and he said there was "one team in particular" that had claimed almost every player they put on waivers.

[TheLeviathan]

Please, please don't let a few good weeks cause us to do anything dumb.  Whatever baseball gods are listening....please.  

 

We may need to hunt down Nick Punto as a sacrifice or something to prevent what feels inevitable.

 

 

[kab21]

 

So the reason I was told that Vargas had to go down was because we had to showcase Plouffe for a trade.
Then Plouffe plays really well, and still has zero trade value.
Something is conflicting here.
If no amount of success was going to give him trade value, why was he ever playing?

No, this wasn't the reason. Sano hurt his arm and is barely playing 3B because of it.

 

The Twins are in a tough spot. If Sano's arm is really messed up and he needs to DH next year (which he basically should be regardless) then Plouffe on a one year deal (last year of arb) is a good option.

And then the internet exploded...

 

This sucks for Vargas though because I really like him as a one dimensional hitter. He does that well. Not much else.

[diehardtwinsfan]

There was nothing structural with Sano's arm. Plouffe should not be offered arb. He should be traded (if possible), but most likely non-tendered.

[HitInAPinch]

Why would any team trade for Plouffe?  Unless I'm reading things incorrectly, Plouffe's contract is up. 

Plouffe has been more than a serviceable 3b.  His injuries this year have really killed any trade value he's had.  All the other teams know what's going on. 

 

Personally, I'm not confident that Sano will be even an average defender.  There is still a possibility that he'll out hit his defensive shortcomings. 

[Mr. Brooks]

Why would any team trade for Plouffe? Unless I'm reading things incorrectly, Plouffe's contract is up.

Plouffe has been more than a serviceable 3b. His injuries this year have really killed any trade value he's had. All the other teams know what's going on.

 

Personally, I'm not confident that Sano will be even an average defender. There is still a possibility that he'll out hit his defensive shortcomings.

Plouffe is still under team control for one more season.

[jorgenswest]

I happened to catch RA on "Inside Twins" last Sunday and he said there was "one team in particular" that had claimed almost every player they put on waivers.

The Yankees were reported to have made many waiver claims in order to block players. There was an insider article on ESPN a few days ago. If the Twins don't plan on taking Plouffe to arbitration, they should have let him go. I wouldn't have taken him to arbitration last year. The money would have been better spent on the bullpen or a veteran outfielder with a good glove like Austin Jackson (who probably can in cheaper than Plouffe).

 

Since they didn't let Plouffe go, does that also indicate that they plan to bring him to arbitration. Maybe not. It could be that they want to leave that decision for the new GM. His arbitration contract will be very difficult to trade and probably made it difficult to trade last winter.

 

Had they non tendered Plouffe, they would have a better answer about Sano at 3B. they don't have time to get an answer now. It takes a minimum of a few months of regular play to see whether there will be growth and improvement. Nothing is learned in the last month of the season.

[Rosterman]

Yes, you let him go or sign him long term. Maybe we will have to wait to see the plans of any new powers-that-be.

 

The reality is that Plouffe will be back on an arbitration-settled salary that could easily reach $10. No negotiations. Do you sign him for two years and close to $20?

 

Do you let him walk? Maybe that decision needed to be made already. If you had let him (and Suzuki) walk, then you could resign them on the off-season for less than current pay, possibly. If you don't offer arbitration to Plouffe, you can't sign him until May 15 (or am I wrong on that).

 

Of course, we still have a logjam. I can live with another season of Plouffe at third if need be, if Sano is the fulltime DH. But where does that leave Vargas and Park. Do we see them in the Twins plans for the future? Do they have anymore value in the trade market than many other Twins? It is pretty sad when you keep players around with no trade value/interest to other teams. 

 

Of course, any player is tradeable. Like Suzuki. I'm surprised the Twins weren't able to move him with a prospect (like they did Nolasco) for another prospect. 

 

Again, we have to wait for the new GM. I imagine close looks will happen on Plouffe and Santiago. They probably will even do the same on Milone, not making decisions until the last minute. Part of the reasoning might just be that they have the money to spend (and it doesn't carry over from year-to-year) so one-year arbitration victory deals won't kill their pocketbook, considering who might be available for their needs on the free-agent marketplace.

 

But, hey, giving say $18 million to Plouffe and Santiago could buy you a pretty nice pitcher, even on a one-year deal!

[ThejacKmp]

 

They didn't have any value.

 

I just don't trust that they had no value, I think the Twins just refused to sell low on them.

 

Maybe Plouffe didn't make it through waivers (annoying how obscured the waiver process is - it seems like something that would be of interest to fans so I'm not sure why baseball doesn't make the process more public) but if he did, he would have some value to some contender as a bench bat down the stretch when rosters are expanded. And as for the Twins, getting PT for young guys is worth getting almost anything for him. Some 35th round pick from this years draft would be worth it if it meant seeing Sano at 3B every day and getting ABs for guys like Polanco, Escobar and Vargas who might be in the Twins future.

 

I also think somebody somewhere would have traded some low prospect for Suzuki. Most teams bring up a 3rd catcher in September. Would you rather have some prospect or a guy like Suzuki who might be able to provide a pinch hit or two.

 

[kab21]

 

There was nothing structural with Sano's arm. Plouffe should not be offered arb. He should be traded (if possible), but most likely non-tendered.

Even when the words nothing structural are the diagnosis I am skeptical. At this point you do what is right for Sano and don't worry about Park/Vargas. the logjam sucks but Sano is the priority. If he should be DH then they have no place on this team. And then you think about 3B.

[KirbyDome89]

 

No, this wasn't the reason. Sano hurt his arm and is barely playing 3B because of it.

 

The Twins are in a tough spot. If Sano's arm is really messed up and he needs to DH next year (which he basically should be regardless) then Plouffe on a one year deal (last year of arb) is a good option.

And then the internet exploded...

 

This sucks for Vargas though because I really like him as a one dimensional hitter. He does that well. Not much else.

I don't the Twins are ready to, nor should they, relegate Sano to a DH only role. If he isn't able to play 3B next season you have Escobar and Polanco, both of whom can handle the position. The team isn't painted into a corner with the only option out being overpaying Plouffe in arbitration. 

 

I think the anger at Vargas's demotion was justified. He is out of options next season and the Twins should have been getting him ABs against MLB pitching. Joe Mauer injured his quad BEFORE Vargas went down. We watched Plouffe play 1B for two of three games, including the day Vargas was optioned. He then played 1B in 4 of 5 games before Mauer returned to the lineup permanently. Obviously there was no room for Vargas and clearly a team destined for 100 losses couldn't go without a 14 man bullpen. 

[kab21]

 

I don't the Twins are ready to, nor should they, relegate Sano to a DH only role. If he isn't able to play 3B next season you have Escobar and Polanco, both of whom can handle the position. The team isn't painted into a corner with the only option out being overpaying Plouffe in arbitration. 

 

I think the anger at Vargas's demotion was justified. He is out of options next season and the Twins should have been getting him ABs against MLB pitching. Joe Mauer injured his quad BEFORE Vargas went down. We watched Plouffe play 1B for two of three games, including the day Vargas was optioned. He then played 1B in 4 of 5 games before Mauer returned to the lineup permanently. Obviously there was no room for Vargas and clearly a team destined for 100 losses couldn't go without a 14 man bullpen. 

Sano being relegated to DH is dependent on his arm. Just because he had a clean MRI doesn't mean that everything is okay. Vargas is an unfortunate casualty if that is the case though because I really like Vargas but if Sano is the DH then Sano is the DH and you work from there for the rest of the positions.

 

If Polanco is starting at SS then Escobar is an awful option as a starting 3B.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Sano being relegated to DH is dependent on his arm. Just because he had a clean MRI doesn't mean that everything is okay. Vargas is an unfortunate casualty if that is the case though because I really like Vargas but if Sano is the DH then Sano is the DH and you work from there for the rest of the positions.

 

If Polanco is starting at SS then Escobar is an awful option as a starting 3B.

Not playing the field because he is hurt and not playing the field because the team has decided he is only a DH are two different things. My point was that when hes healthy he should be given the opportunity to play the field, or at least prove he can't. I agree if he isn't entrenched at DH then the lineup is much more flexible. 

 

Most likely Polanco would be at 3B. But if Escobar was assigned there it would be an awful option? The last two seasons the only offensive category that Plouffe has any real advantage in is HRs. Also over their careers Escobar has shown to be the better defensive player despite a bad year this year, so I fail to see how he is an awful option at 3B. 

[DocBauer]

Despite being a fan and general defender of Plouffe in the past, I feel it's best to move on, especially considering the contract amount he's probably going to command.

 

Other quick points:

 

1] I remain convinced, at this point, that I have seen enough from Sano to believe that healthy, and given time, he will be solid at 3B. Probably never great or very good, but solid.

 

2] Not playing Vargas just about every day is a huge mistake! So he cooled down some. He was still taking quality AB and getting walks and could just as easily have gotten hot again. There is usually an ebb and flow to a hitter's season. You owe it to yourself to see what you have in him.

 

3] As of now, my ideal player roster for 2017 includes 2 catchers TBD, Mauer, Vargas or Park, Dozier, Polanco, Escobar, Sano, Rosario, Buxton, Kepler, and a quality 4th ML OF who can step in and play if Buxton needs time. That's 12 and you need 13. Plouffe as a 3B/1B/DH and possible spare OF wouldn't be the worst idea, or insurance, if his contract was decent and your staff wasn't committed to him being a full time player.

 

Not saying the team SHOULD keep Plouffe, but I can see merit in this scenario.

[jorgenswest]

That 13th player should have options. They are going to want to go with a 13th pitcher at times and will need to send someone out. That wouldn't work with Plouffe. They could send Park, but if he is doing well they don't want to keep Plouffe over Park. Other than that, they could send an OF or Sano. I hope that isn't necessary.

 

A guy like Walker might work. He is 25 so less worries about needing to play every day to develop. He has two full seasons above A-Ball. His right handed bat and better k/bb rate against lefties might get him a few starts a week for Rosario or Kepler or Mauer. If he doesn't hit, they can give Palka a shot.

[Riverbrian]

 

 I guess your view on Plouffe really depends on your view on Vargas and Park because that's where the trade off is. Plouffe and Plouffe and Sano can  fit on the same team, particularly when Mauer is the 1B since Mauer is a 125-135 games a year guy now and Mauer, Sano and Plouffe essentially share the 1B/3B/DH spots.  I am skeptical on Vargas because his OPS from this year is inflated by his very hot start.  He wasn't hitting much at all when he was sent down. He was 6-36 in his last 10 games pre demotion with 3 Hrs, 6 RBIs, 16 SOs and 7 walks for a .167/.302 line (didn't calc the slugging %). Take out the 8/11 game against where the team scored 15 runs and Vargas was 2-5 with 2 HRs and 3 RBIs and the other 9 games to go 4-31 with 1 HR, 3 RBIs and a .129/.289 line. Not too good for a guy whose only value is his bat. He got sent down because he wasn't hitting. Add in 2015 and the bottom line is clear - Plouffe is a better hitter and better fielder at this point in time. Park - who knows what we have there? Given his injury and performance this year it's really a complete crap shoot.

 

There's really 3 scenarios:

(1) Take Plouffe through arbitration and keep things as they are.  Plouffe gets a one year 8-10 mil contract, he, Sano and Mauer split 1B/3B and DH and Sano gets 50-75 starts at 3B if his elbow holds up and spends the rest of the year as the primary DH. Either Park or Vargas probably makes the team to back up these 3 spots and gets 250-300 ABs with Mauer sitting 30-40 games and the inevitable injuries. 

 

(2) Sign Plouffe to a 2 year, 15-20 mil contract and repeat scenario 1 for 2 seasons rather than one. Ploiffe becomes a little more tradeable if someone emerges like Park, Vargas or someone else. 

 

(3) Non-tender Plouffe and roll with Sano at 3B (there isn't anyone else) and give Vargas/Park/Grossman/Palka/ABW the Dh ABs. Risk here is that Sano can't play 3B well enough or his elbow won't cooperate and then Escobar is your everyday 3B (assuming Polanco is the everyday SS) and the former players lose out on being the DH.

 

On balance, I like scenario 1 as the most flexible and 2 wouldn't kill me.  I see 3 as the team waiving a white flag on 2017 and hoping that either Park or Vargas (or may be Palka or ABW) beomes better than Plouffe AND that Sano can be an everyday 3B. I don't like that bet and scenarios 1 and 2 allows you to hedge that bet.

 

One more thought. Saving Plouffe's salary isn't going to get us a one or two year deal on a quality starting pitcher unless it's a risky deal on someone coming back from injury. Quality starters get 4-5 year deals. Besides, there aren't any good FA pitchers out there this year to get. Plouffe's salary and starting pitching are related but only in the sense of the relationship between that salary and the overall payroll.   

 

Great Post

 

It wouldn't bother me if Plouffe was brought back next year and it wouldn't bother me if he was paid all that money.

 

However... It would bother me if Molitor played Plouffe every day next year like he is doing this year... right now. 

 

Plouffe is not Nolan Arenado. Arenado is the type of talent that you play every day. Plouffe is not that type of talent. Nobody should get extended bench time because you have to get Plouffe into the lineup everyday. 

 

Since Molitor tends to play Plouffe every day...the temptation may need to be removed. 

 

From a purely business sense... I believe the Twins have to walk away from Plouffe. 

 

1. I'm assuming he is still here because he has very little trade value. 

 

2. If he has very little trade value then he has very little value and paying him wouldn't make business sense. 

 

3. New President of Baseball Op won't have any sentimental attachment. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Thrylos]

If the Twins get anything for Plouffe, it will be a bit win, not only because the player who would get (even a C prospect) has higher probability to help the Twins in the future, but because the player who will likely benefit from Plouffe's departure (Vargas) has been a better player than Plouffe this season.

 

It is the Ortiz vs LeCroy situation.  Deja vu, all over again.  Vargas vs Plouffe.

 

Hope that the new Twins administration has learned from the mistakes of the past.

 

Plouffe (like Perkins and Hughes and Dozier and Mauer) has a banner outside Hammond Stadium.  Ironically these are the posterboys of the Twins' misery