What Happened To Our Twinkies?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

What timing? Seriously, he needs coaching, badly. His approach isn't working.

Agree. Coaching helped Dozier this season. As long as they are coaching Sano to be a better Sano I can't complain. But maybe they need different coaches for that. Who knows.

[d-mac]

 

I just don't see that and those examples certainly don't help.  Ortiz roided up in Boston 15 years ago.  We can probably let that go.  Liriano wasn't much different in Pitt - maybe slightly more consistent but didn't reach the same level he had in his best years in MN.  Perkins became an all-star closer.  Dozier was a nothing prospect that has turned into a 5 WAR player.  Occasionally there has been some public criticism (although Molitor seems to do it more than Gardy did) but even that has been pretty mild.  Every team has moments - Maddon called out Wil Myers, Torre pushed a lot of Soriano's buttons back in the day, Reds management questioned Votto, La Russa was famous for things like that too.  But I don't see a lot to suggest that the Twins are turning players into pariahs.  

 

And the Twins have had a lot of different type of players at the same time.  It's hard to remember since we're in an ugly period but the Twins had rotations full of completely different arms - Santana, Liriano, Radke, Silva, etc.  They had small ball hitters but in 09 their 3-6 hitters avg 33 doubles and 30 HRs.  They developed multiple MVPs and a Cy Young winner.  Obviously, not every young guy worked out - that's normal - but they relied on them a ton and got pretty good success out of it.  Part of this might just be the "Twins way" mythology that was never quite true and now it's used as a negative reference instead.  

 

In any event, the next GM will have to make some changes.  I'm far more concerned with the ML changes than the development side.

 

I couldn't disagree with much of this more. Ortiz was never suspended for roids. Also, if he did use, there is now way that explains his most recent seasons. Liriano had two very good seasons in a playoff rotation in Pittsburgh. Perkins and Dozier succeeded in spite of the Twins' meddling- Dozier in particular stands out, they kept telling him to go the other way- he is actually hitting fewer balls to RF this year and having more success. And yes, Molitor is every bit as bad, or worse than Gardy was at throwing young players under the bus publicly. And just because other managers have done it doesn't mean our management should do it too. It's an awful motivational tactic, IMO, it's a great way to kill a young player's confidence and create animosity amongst some of the more rube-ish elements of a fanbase.  

 

Just because Morneau, Santana, Mauer were successful doesn't disprove my assertion. Mauer in particular was a Twins-y type hitter, not that hitting line drives to all fields is a bad thing- the best hitters do that- that's just not the strength of every hitter, so we should not want every hitter to take that approach. Morneau, Hunter, Cuddyer etc, also all hit well to all fields. Part of that was I think the Dome rewarded that strategy well (and TF penalizes those types of hitters, IMO) The first true pull hitter I remember the Twins having was Willingham. Plouffe was also a pull hitter when he first came up too- OPS wise, his best season was 2012, when he was still a pull hitter. Dozier was the opposite, he was not a pull hitter when he came up- but he's had a lot of success now that he does in spite of the team's efforts to break him of that habit. 

[Darius]

I think it's simple: The luck ran out.

 

They didn't have transcendent players like Johan Santana, Joe Mauer, Justin Morneau, Torii Hunter....and other very good players like Cuddyer, Kubel, etc, falling into their lap anymore. Players with supreme talent that would've succeeded anywhere, with no particular development and coaching.

 

There was a tipping point where they had to make saavy moves to keep the team afloat after that crop of prospects came through, that just happened to pan out. There was a window of opportunity to trade, rebuild, retool, etc. They couldn't to it. They didn't know how to do it. They were stuck in 80s in terms of information systems/evaluation, and there was a country club atmosphere under which no decision makers were held accountable for their performance.

 

The front office was always terrible. There was just a few years where the stars aligned, and a bunch of prospects panned out. People saw that and thought Terry Ryan was a genius....even though he continually dribbled it down his leg in terms of bolstering the roster year after year after year. It probably would've been better had that not happened, Joe Mauer chose football (who was the key to all that success...one of the greatest Twins of all time) and ownership gutted the front office 15 years ago. Maybe the Twins would have accomplished more than the pseudo-success of the mid 2000s.

[Darius]

I couldn't disagree with much of this more. Ortiz was never suspended for roids. Also, if he did use, there is now way that explains his most recent seasons. Liriano had two very good seasons in a playoff rotation in Pittsburgh. Perkins and Dozier succeeded in spite of the Twins' meddling- Dozier in particular stands out, they kept telling him to go the other way- he is actually hitting fewer balls to RF this year and having more success. And yes, Molitor is every bit as bad, or worse than Gardy was at throwing young players under the bus publicly. And just because other managers have done it doesn't mean our management should do it too. It's an awful motivational tactic, IMO, it's a great way to kill a young player's confidence and create animosity amongst some of the more rube-ish elements of a fanbase.

 

Just because Morneau, Santana, Mauer were successful doesn't disprove my assertion. Mauer in particular was a Twins-y type hitter, not that hitting line drives to all fields is a bad thing- the best hitters do that- that's just not the strength of every hitter, so we should not want every hitter to take that approach. Morneau, Hunter, Cuddyer etc, also all hit well to all fields. Part of that was I think the Dome rewarded that strategy well (and TF penalizes those types of hitters, IMO) The first true pull hitter I remember the Twins having was Willingham. Plouffe was also a pull hitter when he first came up too- OPS wise, his best season was 2012, when he was still a pull hitter. Dozier was the opposite, he was not a pull hitter when he came up- but he's had a lot of success now that he does in spite of the team's efforts to break him of that habit.

Not that I disagree with you. They blew it with Ortiz. But he certainly used PEDs, just like many players on the Twins probably did/do. There are many substances out there that players still use, and aren't tested for or are covered up with very sophisticated chemistry/pharmacology.

 

Ortiz could've just as easily stayed with the Twins and got the roids from Juan Rincons' guy instead of Manny's. The difference was, Boston had guys (Manny included) that taught him how to harness his potential, instead of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Ortiz, JJ Hardy, Valencia, and a few other have said as much themselves. Not sure why multiple players would go out their way to lie about that in the media. It's a fact.

 

Everything aside, believing Ortiz didn't juice....or only succeeded because of juice....are equally naive.

[Doomtints]

 

Not that I disagree with you. They blew it with Ortiz. But he certainly used PEDs, just like many players on the Twins probably did/do. There are many substances out there that players still use, and aren't tested for or are covered up with very sophisticated chemistry/pharmacology.

Ortiz could've just as easily stayed with the Twins and got the roids from Juan Rincons' guy instead of Manny's. The difference was, Boston had guys (Manny included) that taught him how to harness his potential, instead of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Ortiz, JJ Hardy, Valencia, and a few other have said as much themselves. Not sure why multiple players would go out their way to lie about that in the media. It's a fact.

Everything aside, believing Ortiz didn't juice....or only succeeded because of juice....are equally naive.

 

Game 7 of the 1987 World Series is available on mlb.com to watch for free.

 

Watch it and tell me the Twins weren't juiced.  They won game 7 based on their defense and not their hitting, mind you.  But look at their body structures in that game and their power numbers from that year. 

[JustinCB]

 

from certainly true to more my opinion:

 

Well, they had a series of bad drafts. Whether there were other players available or not, they had a series of drafts that produced nothing. That hurts.

 

They made some bad trades.

 

Their top prospects have SO FAR failed to produce at a consistent, high, level.

 

They signed some bad FA contracts.

 

Something isn't right in the minors in terms of teaching base stealing / running, and fielding, imo. The fundamentals just don't seem to be there the last 5-7 years like they seemed to be in the past. Maybe that's nostalgia, but I'm not alone in typing that here.

 

They hired a manager that had never managed before, who is, imo, over his head tactically. Now, we can't see what he does off the field, and I think off the field is super important.....but since we can't see that, I can only judge him on what I can see....

 

They got stale in their thinking and were slow to adjust. IMO, this largely comes from (until a couple years ago) not bringing in many outside voices. Groupthink is a thing, and it is a thing I think they used to struggle with. I think that is less an issue now, but it takes years to recover from cultural mistakes.

 

They are putting guys in positions not to succeed, like Sano in RF, and not having Polanco play any other positions than 2B recently in the minors, even though Dozier is here.

 

They thought they were contenders and signed a 29 year old free agent DH, when they had Sano, Plouffe, Mauer, Vargas, and Arcia. I think their resource allocation has been off for some time.

Maybe it would be easier to ask what's going right?

[Brock Beauchamp]

Square peg, meet round hole. This is the Twins M.O., they force (young) players to become something they aren't.

Brian Dozier says hi.

 

And Trevor Plouffe.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I think it's simple: The luck ran out.

 

They didn't have transcendent players like Johan Santana, Joe Mauer, Justin Morneau, Torii Hunter....and other very good players like Cuddyer, Kubel, etc, falling into their lap anymore. Players with supreme talent that would've succeeded anywhere, with no particular development and coaching.

So if a player fails, it's the Twins fault. If a player succeeds, it's dumb luck.

 

Scorching hot take and completely objective analysis right there.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Ortiz, Liriano, Perkins, Dozier, Hicks, Buxton, Sano, Berrios, etc.

Seriously?

 

Ortiz- 16 years ago

 

Liriano - okay, a misstep... But it's not like he crushed for the Pirates. He was good.

 

Perkins - you mean the guy who was an elite closer for the Twins?

 

Dozier - what?

 

Hicks - you're really reaching here.

 

Buxton - bad so far. Has all of 350 MLB PAs.

 

Sano - career 130 OPS+.

 

Berrios - like Buxton, madly mismanaged... But 22 MLB IP.

 

IMO, the Twins screw up too often but your examples of the forcing a player to be something he isn't has one legit case: Ortiz.

 

And that happened 16 years ago under a different manager and most of a different front office.

[Rosterman]

Was over at the State Fair grounds visiting the pitiful Twins booth where staffers are sitting behind table devoid of people who want to buy short-season passes and such. They have a nice little playing field buried in the back that kids are having fun playing a bit of wiffle ball. Not sure if even Tony Oliva is showing up for his customary player appearances. Happily, they don't have televised games in the booth and the radio station next door is anything but Twins oriented. But, hey, a guy is selling a great book on Twins history.

 

What I want to see, besides all the former player jerseys and other promotional items going for some bucks back to the Twins, is maybe an auction of those players the Twins don't really need.

 

Okay, Minnesota Twins, some million plus people from across the state (and even Midwest) come to the Fair. I saw "Play Ball" was handing out plastic bats and a ball. TC does appear in the parade (I think). But pretty pitiful when you are basically using the fair as a garage sale of unwanted merchandise. You need to add a unique food vendor. You need to have alumni appearances. You need a big screen television showing Twins games (bad or good). You need people handing out pieces of cardboard with website links, the schedule, something, anything to excite fans. You find some performance art group to do baseball skits. You make it a showcase of activity...not just a place to sell off merchandise (and you are still making a good buck on junk). 

 

Heck, have your disabled list players down there signing autographs for the kids. Do something!

[The Wise One]

Ortiz is obviously the most famous case, but there have been so many instances of the coaching staff trying to fit a player into a one-size-fits-all mold whether that is sacrificing strikeout ability/velocity of a pitcher to lower walks, telling a pull/power hitter to go the other way to raise batting average, or a speedy position player to bunt and hit the ball on the ground. 

 

And if the player isn't a good little soldier and doesn't fall in line they become a pariah- the team publicly calls into question their work ethic or mental focus.

 

Ortiz, Liriano, Perkins, Dozier, Hicks, Buxton, Sano, Berrios, etc. These are just the examples I could think off the top of my head of players the Twins tried to make into something other than they were.

 

Success at the highest level of a sport as competitive as baseball is like being on a knife edge. Trying to alter a player's DNA to fit some definition of your ideal pitcher or hitter at a certain position is a guarantee to knock a player off that knife's edge.

Go look at a spray chart for Ortiz. That he has become capable of hitting the ball with authority to all fields would run counter to the statement Twins were trying to make him into something he is not. Hick's tenure in New York would say you are correct that the Twins erred into trying to make Hicks into a starting CF

[Platoon]

I agree with pretty much everything you said.  I especially agree with this part.  Even the Tigers' radio guys were lamenting this very topic during yesterday's game.  They said that this team's prospects would come up and be able to play right away and play great fundamental baseball.  That's completely gone now.  They weren't afraid to point out the erosion of this teams ability to develop players that know how to play good fundamental baseball.  That's a huge issue in my view.  Even if you don't have great talent, you should be able to play fundamental baseball that will get you by well enough to hang around as a bench player.  This version of the Twins is fundamentally stupid, playing some of the dumbest baseball I've ever seen.  The record reflects that.

Very good observation. Even a guy wit a 40 arm or glove can throw to the right base, or be in position for the cutoff. Those are not physical gifts.

[Platoon]

Ortiz is obviously the most famous case, but there have been so many instances of the coaching staff trying to fit a player into a one-size-fits-all mold whether that is sacrificing strikeout ability/velocity of a pitcher to lower walks, telling a pull/power hitter to go the other way to raise batting average, or a speedy position player to bunt and hit the ball on the ground. 

 

And if the player isn't a good little soldier and doesn't fall in line they become a pariah- the team publicly calls into question their work ethic or mental focus.

 

Ortiz, Liriano, Perkins, Dozier, Hicks, Buxton, Sano, Berrios, etc. These are just the examples I could think off the top of my head of players the Twins tried to make into something other than they were.

 

Success at the highest level of a sport as competitive as baseball is like being on a knife edge. Trying to alter a player's DNA to fit some definition of your ideal pitcher or hitter at a certain position is a guarantee to knock a player off that knife's edge.

 

The latest example might be Santiago, and his BB issue.

[Platoon]

Brian Dozier says hi.

And Trevor Plouffe.

They tried to change Dozier, and basically he told them to bleep off. But he has done this: he hits the first good pitch he sees. No working the count. He has learned to lay off the away stuff, he may hit a rare one, but he is still all pull. Just watch where the catchers set up, not where the pitch ends up. I have nothing against going the other way with a pitch at all, to me is whether you make a player so paranoid over an issue, it subtracts from his strengths. As for Plouffe? If he's a poster boy for the teams ability to develop players, the bar is set too low!

[Jerr]

 

Was over at the State Fair grounds visiting the pitiful Twins booth where staffers are sitting behind table devoid of people who want to buy short-season passes and such. They have a nice little playing field buried in the back that kids are having fun playing a bit of wiffle ball. Not sure if even Tony Oliva is showing up for his customary player appearances. Happily, they don't have televised games in the booth and the radio station next door is anything but Twins oriented. But, hey, a guy is selling a great book on Twins history.

 

What I want to see, besides all the former player jerseys and other promotional items going for some bucks back to the Twins, is maybe an auction of those players the Twins don't really need.

 

Okay, Minnesota Twins, some million plus people from across the state (and even Midwest) come to the Fair. I saw "Play Ball" was handing out plastic bats and a ball. TC does appear in the parade (I think). But pretty pitiful when you are basically using the fair as a garage sale of unwanted merchandise. You need to add a unique food vendor. You need to have alumni appearances. You need a big screen television showing Twins games (bad or good). You need people handing out pieces of cardboard with website links, the schedule, something, anything to excite fans. You find some performance art group to do baseball skits. You make it a showcase of activity...not just a place to sell off merchandise (and you are still making a good buck on junk). 

 

Heck, have your disabled list players down there signing autographs for the kids. Do something!

Twin's booth at the State Fair has ALWAYS been less than stunning. Except the year Tony was there and my son and I got to talk to him and struggle to understand what he was saying... lol, a truly GREAT guy!

 

But, all the stuff for sale, looked like someone's garage sale from years ago.

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

They tried to change Dozier, and basically he told them to bleep off. But he has done this: he hits the first good pitch he sees. No working the count. He has learned to lay off the away stuff, he may hit a rare one, but he is still all pull. Just watch where the catchers set up, not where the pitch ends up. I have nothing against going the other way with a pitch at all, to me is whether you make a player so paranoid over an issue, it subtracts from his strengths. As for Plouffe? If he's a poster boy for the teams ability to develop players, the bar is set too low!

How did they try to change Dozier? He was an eighth round draft pick who averaged four home runs a season in his college days.

 

The only "changing" done by Brian Dozier was going from a mediocre player with no power to a very good player with lots of power.

 

If you're talking about Dozier and the Twins' request to start using more of the field... Uh, Dozier was in a pretty serious slump at the time.

 

And now that he's succeeding again, he is in fact using a bit more of the field.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Everyone should want Sano to start hitting the ball all over the field, instead of trying to swing as hard as he can to pull everything. They were just talking in Tuesday's game about how Sano needs to figure out that he should hit like Miguel Cabrera, using the whole field. Sano is strong enough to hit home runs to right field, as well. It's the same thing that Dozier finally figured out this season. Using the whole field is a good thing.

ya, that's why they have AAA. Not saying he shouldn't work on hitting oppo, just don't over-tinker with an 800 to 900 ops guy too much, too quick. He already is a monster, wholesale changes for him at this point would be bad.

 

And don't buy into the Dozier hype, it's a month of hitting like 5% more oppo. His BABIP is .269 which is right in line w/ his career. Things are looking good cuz he's yanked 30 home runs.

[Riverbrian]

 

I couldn't disagree with much of this more. Ortiz was never suspended for roids. Also, if he did use, there is now way that explains his most recent seasons. Liriano had two very good seasons in a playoff rotation in Pittsburgh. Perkins and Dozier succeeded in spite of the Twins' meddling- Dozier in particular stands out, they kept telling him to go the other way- he is actually hitting fewer balls to RF this year and having more success. And yes, Molitor is every bit as bad, or worse than Gardy was at throwing young players under the bus publicly. And just because other managers have done it doesn't mean our management should do it too. It's an awful motivational tactic, IMO, it's a great way to kill a young player's confidence and create animosity amongst some of the more rube-ish elements of a fanbase.  

 

Just because Morneau, Santana, Mauer were successful doesn't disprove my assertion. Mauer in particular was a Twins-y type hitter, not that hitting line drives to all fields is a bad thing- the best hitters do that- that's just not the strength of every hitter, so we should not want every hitter to take that approach. Morneau, Hunter, Cuddyer etc, also all hit well to all fields. Part of that was I think the Dome rewarded that strategy well (and TF penalizes those types of hitters, IMO) The first true pull hitter I remember the Twins having was Willingham. Plouffe was also a pull hitter when he first came up too- OPS wise, his best season was 2012, when he was still a pull hitter. Dozier was the opposite, he was not a pull hitter when he came up- but he's had a lot of success now that he does in spite of the team's efforts to break him of that habit. 

 

I personally don't know what the coaching staff is telling Brian Dozier... I don't know if they are trying to force him and I also don't know how Brian is reacting to the whatever instruction is given. 

 

I've seen the games and I'm pretty convinced that Brian has had more success going the opposite way during the past few hot months and he had no success going the opposite way during the extremely cold months.

 

He is still a pull hitter without question but he has added to his game and my assumption is that he has put some serious work in to make these necessary adjustments. 

 

[wsnydes]

Very good observation. Even a guy wit a 40 arm or glove can throw to the right base, or be in position for the cutoff. Those are not physical gifts.

Yup, knowing what to do in a given situation has nothing to do with ability. That goes with the glove, with the ball, with the bat. Smart baseball wins you close games and is a crutch that can be relied upon when you have an off night.

[howieramone2]

 

I think it's simple: The luck ran out.

They didn't have transcendent players like Johan Santana, Joe Mauer, Justin Morneau, Torii Hunter....and other very good players like Cuddyer, Kubel, etc, falling into their lap anymore. Players with supreme talent that would've succeeded anywhere, with no particular development and coaching.

There was a tipping point where they had to make saavy moves to keep the team afloat after that crop of prospects came through, that just happened to pan out. There was a window of opportunity to trade, rebuild, retool, etc. They couldn't to it. They didn't know how to do it. They were stuck in 80s in terms of information systems/evaluation, and there was a country club atmosphere under which no decision makers were held accountable for their performance.

The front office was always terrible. There was just a few years where the stars aligned, and a bunch of prospects panned out. People saw that and thought Terry Ryan was a genius....even though he continually dribbled it down his leg in terms of bolstering the roster year after year after year. It probably would've been better had that not happened, Joe Mauer chose football (who was the key to all that success...one of the greatest Twins of all time) and ownership gutted the front office 15 years ago. Maybe the Twins would have accomplished more than the pseudo-success of the m.id 2000s

There are millions of loyal Twins fans who didn't consider that pseudo-success.

[howieramone2]

 

Lots of things.

We refuse to make trades at times that it's extremely appropriate to do so.

We love to make trades that are unnecessary.

We love to demote guys during 100 loss seasons, that should be playing in those games to see if they can figure things out.

We have lots of issues right now fellas. I'm hopeful the next GM can help us solve some problems. Because they are wide in this organization.

Go TWINS

I can not think of a single unnecessary trade. Can you share with the board specific examples?

[Mr. Brooks]

I can not think of a single unnecessary trade. Can you share with the board specific examples?

Trading Meyer for Nolasco salary relief when they could have just released him and ate the salary instead.

 

After all, we always hear that money has never been an issue.

[Comrade Bork]

I just desperately want to see an effort to focus on defense. Watching us beat ourselves is the worst, make the other team beat us.

[Rosterman]

But wasn't the Tom Kelly Twins Way based on learning and performing the fundamentals? You catch the ball, you throw the ball. You pitch the ball, you let the batter hit it and the plays are made. You learn how to watch the pitchers and work the count. That's the base for fundamental baseball.

 

When you draft a pitcher, they have some of the stuff, but usually learn how to change speeds on a moments notice and add a third and/or fourth pitch that will take them from a bullpen job to a starter job...consistently.

 

And the realm of pitching seems to have become so specialized that a starter barely has to go through the order more than three times, although this season the Twins relievers seem to have trouble going through an order once (pitching two or three innings). 

 

As a batter, you need to work on working that count. Spotting your pitch, but also the ability to occasionally put the ball in play one way or the other, show some speed on the bases, and work on strengthening your strength in the field, be it left/right movement and the ability to throw hard, long, short or not at all (and then you DH). Sometimes it is as little as shortening up on the bat, or just swinging away, but you have to be able to adjust to situations at the major league level. It is often more than just trying to get a hit.

 

You put together an offense that compliments each other. You make the pitcher afraid of the following batter by putting someone different ahead (not just the left right left right thing so many used to do). You put your guys in the front of the order who will get on base more often in their five at bats in a game and have the one's you don't trust further down the order. You develop a bench so you can pinch hit, pinch run, and still put a guy on the field, and maybe still have a pinch hitter again. How did they do it when the pitcher batted ALL the time (some teams even ahd pitchers capable of being a pinch-hitter).

 

But it all boils down to fundamentals to play the game. But it also boils down to natural talent to win games and be a contender. And the talent is always there. If you would take the worst player from the roster of every major league team right now, they would still probably perform, as a team, competitively better than any AA team, and probably be in contention for the pennant drive in the AAA league, that is how good you have to be to play major league ball.

 

The Twins, sadly, had a recognizable total system breakdown. Call it antiquated management and scouting, a mindset that they just want to put a competitive team on the field (like this year, and rumors of them saying they want to be "competitive" next year....no....you are either building a team that will be competitive period, or you are saying "we are going towards winning it all this year" which cannot JUST be said but has to be abcked up by past and promised performance on the field.

 

The Twins fall in love with their organization and their Twins Way brand and the love of putting on a show that looks like baseball, plays like baseball, but is it baseball. They scout and sign guys who seem nice and need some tweaking, but how good are the tweakers. They seem to move guys slowly thru the system (right now, the 40-man roster has a guy at A+, two at AA that should've been to AAA, and one at AAA that needs to repeat AAA before given consideration for the majors.....these are guys the Twins feared to lose to Rule 5 last year? But in their own way, they now have to keep the guys who possibly risk losing them if put thru waivers...to another team who just might send them thru waivers and get to keep them...or lose them...either way, is it a loss.

 

You even look at the present, coming off of five years of major league drafts, and who do you have AAA level to call up, or even consider adding to the 40-man? Name them. The prospects not already on the roster compared to the crap that you signed to throw against the wall to see if they can stick and help out for a moment. That's is fine to do that. Before the BIG DRAFT the minors were full of experienced players that sometimes played a decade in the minors looking for that once chance to get to the majors (now we have the indy leagues). There is something wrong when you down have Melotakis, Landa, Jones playing at AAA, all guys on 40-man rosters this year. Ready to make a play in spring training.

 

Is the problem in the minors the longevity of the managerial and coaching staffs, the coordinators (Rassmusen and Perlozo), all the consultants we have (Oliva, Hrbek, Blyleven, Carew, Laudner, Smalley, Kelly, Gardy). 

 

And to sum up, yes, The Twins Way was fundamental baseball....which we were praised for over decades but looking at the team this year...the fundamentals are not there. Lots of strikeouts. No innings from the pitchers. Fielding that is a disaster (we yell about Sano, Polanco is making his share of errors, Kepler just made another one). 

 

Total System Failure!

[h2oface]

Back in the hunt for the number one draft pick! Oh joy. More prospects.

[Platoon]

How did they try to change Dozier? He was an eighth round draft pick who averaged four home runs a season in his college days.

The only "changing" done by Brian Dozier was going from a mediocre player with no power to a very good player with lots of power.

If you're talking about Dozier and the Twins' request to start using more of the field... Uh, Dozier was in a pretty serious slump at the time.

And now that he's succeeding again, he is in fact using a bit more of the field.

D-Mac referenced Willingham, as the first true pull hitter the Twins have had. I don't know that that is completely accurate, but he is one of the first or the first in TF. And there is more than one report that Doziers approach evolved from Willinghams success in 2012. There is no history whatsoever of the Twins teaching or advocating pure pull hitting. But this thread isn't about pull hitting, Dozier or Willingham. It's about what happened to the

Twinkies. And something is. Or should I say, several are. And all we can do from the outside, is read between the lines of things said by players and commentators in unguarded moments. And compile them. Like the overheard two scouts at a MiLB game concerning dropped velocity by an acquired player. "Because he's with the Twins". Is that loss of velocity accurate, or the statement verifiably true? Not sure, but the sentiment seems prevailing. There's many others, I am not going to try and remember or type each one. But you don't have to read between any lines to see that the players coming up to the majors are not ready. Are they all rushed? Not really. Many have suitable MiLB stats that indicate they are ready to move. But the failure rate here is too high. If you have not been taught cut off plays, how to bunt, how to avoid a first to second DP, then what else weren't you prepared from? I don't know if it's attitude, or the personalities of players drafted or what. But the Twins seem to have a "deer looking into the headlights" feel to them. They have since forever. Since the Yankees and Red Sox abused them to now when their best prospects come up here looking like Indy league players. Something is definitely missing down on the farm!

[Otto von Ballpark]

Back in the hunt for the number one draft pick!

Wow, only a game and a half above of the Braves. And 5.5 games below MLB's third worst record. Seems like a safe bet we will pick second in 2017!

 

Need to go 14-19 or better over our remaining 33 games to avoid 100 losses.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

D-Mac referenced Willingham, as the first true pull hitter the Twins have had. I don't know that that is completely accurate, but he is one of the first or the first in TF. And there is more than one report that Doziers approach evolved from Willinghams success in 2012. There is no history whatsoever of the Twins teaching or advocating pure pull hitting.

I'm not trying to pick on you but I'm going to address this statement rather bluntly:

 

This kind of thinking is what drives me nuts about this forum some days.

 

Do you know who was an extreme pull hitter, a guy who based his entire career on hitting flyballs, drawing a few walks, and putting the ball in the left field seats when the pitcher made a mistake?

 

Tom Brunansky.

 

Do you know who showed Brian Dozier film, helped him change his swing, and literally the next day, Brian Dozier was a different player and never looked back?

 

Tom Brunansky.

 

And now we're charging Bruno with the crime of "trying to change Brian Dozier".

 

Why is it so hard to give this team credit when they get something right? Why are you trying to shift the success of Dozier over to Willingham when Dozier himself says it was Brunansky who lobbied him to change his approach?

 

Not everything this team does is bad. Not everything this team does is good. It's possible to give them credit for Dozier and want to punch them in the face for Buxton.

 

As for the rest of your post... in no way, shape, or form am I defending many of the developmental choices made by this organization over the past few years. It's maddening to watch Buxton and Berrios play organizational ping pong for no good reason.

 

But that wasn't the point I was addressing. Someone accused the Twins of "changing" a slew of players without a lick of evidence to support their case for most of the players on the list. That's terrible analysis and deserves to be called out.

[Brock Beauchamp]

These stats aren't necessarily correllated to the point at hand but it's a fun comparison.

 

Brian Dozier career:

.245 / .319 / .435 / .755

 

Tom Brunansky career:

.245 / .327 / .434 / .761

[ewen21]

 

 

 

Why is it so hard to give this team credit when they get something right? 

 

 

There were so many decisions made by the Twins I didn't like going into this season and I was not alone.  There were a few things that made me nuts.  The idea to take Miguel Sano and put him right field because Trevor Plouffe HAD TO be a Twin was crazy.  They couldn't see this coming?  Sacrificing Sano for Trevor Plouffe was straight up ignorant on a few different levels.  It moved Kepler to the background.  Bidding for and getting Byung Ho Park when Kennys Vargas could give you the same thing for less was a waste of time and resources for a question mark that didn't even fit.  This was monumentally stupid stuff and me saying this isn't hindsight.  I (and a whole lot of other fans) didn't like any of that right when it happened.

 

That's just a drop in the bucket.  What about the Twins inability to raise starting pitching?  The last halfway decent pitcher the Twins drafted and developed  is Matt Garza.  This isn't happening because they are getting things right.  What's going on with Buxton and Berrios right now takes the cake.  Especially the Berrios situation.  You got Bert Blyleven coming out of the booth injecting himself into the situation?  Berrios already had a few guys working with and Bert and his enormous ego gets involved?  Acknowledging the Twins got something right at this point is like acknowledging a student did well on a small part of the test that he failed.

 

I think the Twins deserve A LOT of criticism now.  Let the floodgates open.