What Happened To Our Twinkies?

[twinscowboysbulls]

Lots of things.

 

We refuse to make trades at times that it's extremely appropriate to do so.

 

We love to make trades that are unnecessary.

 

We love to demote guys during 100 loss seasons, that should be playing in those games to see if they can figure things out.

 

We have lots of issues right now fellas. I'm hopeful the next GM can help us solve some problems. Because they are wide in this organization.

 

Go TWINS

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I heard Gladden say Wednesday that they were making Sano hit balls oppo field during batting practice, so the winning should start any minute now.

[Craig Arko]

They've all been made into Twinkie Wiener Sandwiches.

 

[Mike Sixel]

from certainly true to more my opinion:

 

Well, they had a series of bad drafts. Whether there were other players available or not, they had a series of drafts that produced nothing. That hurts.

 

They made some bad trades.

 

Their top prospects have SO FAR failed to produce at a consistent, high, level.

 

They signed some bad FA contracts.

 

Something isn't right in the minors in terms of teaching base stealing / running, and fielding, imo. The fundamentals just don't seem to be there the last 5-7 years like they seemed to be in the past. Maybe that's nostalgia, but I'm not alone in typing that here.

 

They hired a manager that had never managed before, who is, imo, over his head tactically. Now, we can't see what he does off the field, and I think off the field is super important.....but since we can't see that, I can only judge him on what I can see....

 

They got stale in their thinking and were slow to adjust. IMO, this largely comes from (until a couple years ago) not bringing in many outside voices. Groupthink is a thing, and it is a thing I think they used to struggle with. I think that is less an issue now, but it takes years to recover from cultural mistakes.

 

They are putting guys in positions not to succeed, like Sano in RF, and not having Polanco play any other positions than 2B recently in the minors, even though Dozier is here.

 

They thought they were contenders and signed a 29 year old free agent DH, when they had Sano, Plouffe, Mauer, Vargas, and Arcia. I think their resource allocation has been off for some time.

 

[Doomtints]

 

I heard Gladden say Wednesday that they were making Sano hit balls oppo field during batting practice, so the winning should start any minute now.

 

Yes.  Let's mess with the timing of the guy on the roster that they need to be hitting dingers.

[gmarais66]

 

I heard Gladden say Wednesday that they were making Sano hit balls oppo field during batting practice, so the winning should start any minute now.

Everyone should want Sano to start hitting the ball all over the field, instead of trying to swing as hard as he can to pull everything. They were just talking in Tuesday's game about how Sano needs to figure out that he should hit like Miguel Cabrera, using the whole field. Sano is strong enough to hit home runs to right field, as well. It's the same thing that Dozier finally figured out this season. Using the whole field is a good thing.

[wsnydes]

 

Everyone should want Sano to start hitting the ball all over the field, instead of trying to swing as hard as he can to pull everything. They were just talking in Tuesday's game about how Sano needs to figure out that he should hit like Miguel Cabrera, using the whole field. Sano is strong enough to hit home runs to right field, as well. It's the same thing that Dozier finally figured out this season. Using the whole field is a good thing.

To an extent, I agree.  Some guys are just pull hitters though.  They are what they are.  Mauer lives going oppo, to almost a detriment.  Generally though, good things do happen when all fields are used.  Most of the greatest hitters have/had the ability to use all fields.

[wsnydes]

 

Something isn't right in the minors in terms of teaching base stealing / running, and fielding, imo. The fundamentals just don't seem to be there the last 5-7 years like they seemed to be in the past. Maybe that's nostalgia, but I'm not alone in typing that here.

 

 

I agree with pretty much everything you said.  I especially agree with this part.  Even the Tigers' radio guys were lamenting this very topic during yesterday's game.  They said that this team's prospects would come up and be able to play right away and play great fundamental baseball.  That's completely gone now.  They weren't afraid to point out the erosion of this teams ability to develop players that know how to play good fundamental baseball.  That's a huge issue in my view.  Even if you don't have great talent, you should be able to play fundamental baseball that will get you by well enough to hang around as a bench player.  This version of the Twins is fundamentally stupid, playing some of the dumbest baseball I've ever seen.  The record reflects that.

[Doomtints]

Pohlad was right when he said it was a total system failure.  That's what it is.  The Twins became an organization that you could not get fired from.  Employee relations > winning.

 

What went wrong?  Take your pick.  It was everything.  Ryan wasn't doing his job.  The coaches aren't doing their jobs.  Somehow management has blamed the players for not "stepping up" which is ridiculous.  

 

How many days will pass at the end of the season before the mass firing?  

[Mike Sixel]

I'm not convinced it will be some sort of black Friday event........a really good leader will want to come in and assess many of the employees. That said, assuming the new GM is from the outside, I would expect some pretty major changes early in the process.....but I wouldn't expect what I think some people are expecting.

[Doomtints]

 

I'm not convinced it will be some sort of black Friday event........a really good leader will want to come in and assess many of the employees. That said, assuming the new GM is from the outside, I would expect some pretty major changes early in the process.....but I wouldn't expect what I think some people are expecting.

 

I agree that "the Twins way" would suggest it won't happen.  But Pohlad seems to be legitimately disgusted and is set on making huge changes.  It wouldn't surprise me if the changes came quickly.

 

As you say, he may wait for the next GM to make the moves instead.  That would be prudent.  It just depends on his views on how bad things truly are.  

[Loosey]

I think it starts in the minor leagues.  From a numbers perspective everything looks great, but clearly there is something not being developed for success in the majors.  I can't recall ever seeing players of Berrios and Buxton's abilities in the minors fail as badly as they have in the Majors.  I know there is a big jump from AAA to MLB, but the differences in how Twins players perform is like they only face guys that have no chance to be MLB players in the minor leagues and then in the Majors only face the MLB players.

 

Something isn't right, and it needs to be corrected quickly.

[gocgo]

I posted on another thread the issues with pitching...

 

OK, so once again, we have the worst pitching in the majors going by BAA...and it isn't close.  One can argue that a better defense could cut that down, but if you've watched any games recently, our opponents are hitting rockets.

If you go all the way back to 2011, the highest the Twins have been in BAA is....wait for it....28th!  There are only 30 teams in MLB and in the last 7 years, we have been dead last in pitching 4 of those years, 29th one time, 28th another, and there was that one glorious season where we ranked 24th (2010).

 

Total system failure...yes.  But let's start with the pitching.  The defense wasn't THAT bad in 2010...it is bad now.  Fixing the defensive mind farts that tend to happen out there shouldn't be that tough to fix.  Fixing the pitching....ugh...is going to take an overhaul of the coaching staff responsible for pitching including the scouting.

[Loosey]

 

I'm not convinced it will be some sort of black Friday event........a really good leader will want to come in and assess many of the employees. That said, assuming the new GM is from the outside, I would expect some pretty major changes early in the process.....but I wouldn't expect what I think some people are expecting.

The way the team has seemed to just give up here over the last few weeks I am beginning to wonder if privately Pohlad is pulling back on his "Molitor must stay in 2017" rule for his new GM.  

 

Not sure how a new GM will evaluate the teams people in charge of development, but that is where I think the new GM should start.  Also, if my first assumption is correct, I could see a complete cleaning out of the MLB coaching staff.  I personally think the scouting, while not as up to date as many teams, does a fair job in evaluating talent, it's up the the people on the field to help them players reach their potential and it's not being done.

[jimmer]

What makes this season even worse for some is that they believed last year wasn't quite the mirage it was, even though a deeper look at our performance showed our win total was out of whack with how our talent performed.  Many people thought the good times were starting to roll.  Pohlad said he and the Twins FO bought into it too.

 

Then this year happened.   I, personally, tend to believe our record doesn't reflect our talent level this year, but even still.  Never thought this team was good.  Never thought this team was a .500 or better team.  This team has a lot of weaknesses.

[gunnarthor]

 

  

 

Not sure how a new GM will evaluate the teams people in charge of development, but that is where I think the new GM should start.  Also, if my first assumption is correct, I could see a complete cleaning out of the MLB coaching staff.  I personally think the scouting, while not as up to date as many teams, does a fair job in evaluating talent, it's up the the people on the field to help them players reach their potential and it's not being done.

Molly needs to go.  I think Steil is good.  Not sure if Johnson should stay at his position but the new GM should do what he wants.  If he keeps those guys, good.  If not, good.  

 

Klaw posted (and I'm paraphrasing) that the Twins GM job would be a good one for most any GM.  He thought the team had good young talent, good scouting and development people in place as well as a nice city.  His biggest concern was the meddlesome of ownership (i.e. the Molitor thing).

[jimmer]

I find it interesting KLaw thinks our development team is good when he just got done saying he'd love to see how Buxton would be if he had been developed in another organization.

[jimmer]

I like this quote from KLaw's chat though.

 

 

 

CpCraig (Quincy MA)

 

 

Commenter says: Theo has gone on both Boston sports radio stations in the past month, going off on a tangent about how BA and RBI are overrated. Do you think Dayton Moore is going to challenge him to a duel at the winter meetings?

 

Klaw

  ()

 

Those Theo comments have been priceless. He's more or less pointed out that fans - and, although I don't think he made it explicit, writers - who still rely on idiot stats like BA, RBI, W, SV aren't even capable of arguing their points

[gunnarthor]

 

I find it interesting KLaw thinks our development team is good when he just got done saying he'd love to see how Buxton would be if he had been developed in another organization.

I think those are two different things though - assuming you're alluding to the same chat I think you are.  The development guys seem to get our prospects in a position to succeed but then the ML coaches seem to not finish the job.  I have seen Klaw have pretty strong criticism of Molitor and his staff on that front.  

[mattkummer]

I wondered aloud when Pohlad guaranteed Molitor's job if Molitor might just step down anyway.

You can tell the team's awful play is grating at him. His contract only runs through next year. I think once the season's done, he'll tell ownership and the new GM/Pres. of Baseball Ops. that he appreciates the gesture, but that it's unfair to him and the new regime to manage as a lame duck and for them not to be able to install their guy right away. They'll buy out his last year.

 

The way the team has seemed to just give up here over the last few weeks I am beginning to wonder if privately Pohlad is pulling back on his "Molitor must stay in 2017" rule for his new GM.  

 

Not sure how a new GM will evaluate the teams people in charge of development, but that is where I think the new GM should start.  Also, if my first assumption is correct, I could see a complete cleaning out of the MLB coaching staff.  I personally think the scouting, while not as up to date as many teams, does a fair job in evaluating talent, it's up the the people on the field to help them players reach their potential and it's not being done.

 

[d-mac]

 

Everyone should want Sano to start hitting the ball all over the field, instead of trying to swing as hard as he can to pull everything. They were just talking in Tuesday's game about how Sano needs to figure out that he should hit like Miguel Cabrera, using the whole field. Sano is strong enough to hit home runs to right field, as well. It's the same thing that Dozier finally figured out this season. Using the whole field is a good thing.

 

Square peg, meet round hole. This is the Twins M.O., they force (young) players to become something they aren't. 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

They've all been made into Twinkie Wiener Sandwiches.

image.jpeg

I think I just had a heart attack looking at that.

[gunnarthor]

 

Square peg, meet round hole. This is the Twins M.O., they force (young) players to become something they aren't. 

That's not really true.  They've had long stretches of success based on relying on young players.  But the new GM will (hopefully) consider all parts of the baseball side of things and make changes.  Personally, I think the biggest issue is the ML coaching staff.  They didn't seem to get much out of the young players but they also seemed to not help the vets.  Nearly everyone had long periods where they were just absolutely lost - even guys with established track records.  To me, that suggests that the ML coaching just wasn't there.  

[FormerMinnasotan]

Once the Twins understand how to develop our young talent (Berrios, Buxton, Sano) and get our top prospects to preform at a high level then we just might be a great team.

[d-mac]

 

That's not really true.  They've had long stretches of success based on relying on young players.  But the new GM will (hopefully) consider all parts of the baseball side of things and make changes.  Personally, I think the biggest issue is the ML coaching staff.  They didn't seem to get much out of the young players but they also seemed to not help the vets.  Nearly everyone had long periods where they were just absolutely lost - even guys with established track records.  To me, that suggests that the ML coaching just wasn't there.  

 

Ortiz is obviously the most famous case, but there have been so many instances of the coaching staff trying to fit a player into a one-size-fits-all mold whether that is sacrificing strikeout ability/velocity of a pitcher to lower walks, telling a pull/power hitter to go the other way to raise batting average, or a speedy position player to bunt and hit the ball on the ground. 

 

And if the player isn't a good little soldier and doesn't fall in line they become a pariah- the team publicly calls into question their work ethic or mental focus.

 

Ortiz, Liriano, Perkins, Dozier, Hicks, Buxton, Sano, Berrios, etc. These are just the examples I could think off the top of my head of players the Twins tried to make into something other than they were.

 

Success at the highest level of a sport as competitive as baseball is like being on a knife edge. Trying to alter a player's DNA to fit some definition of your ideal pitcher or hitter at a certain position is a guarantee to knock a player off that knife's edge. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Everyone should want Sano to start hitting the ball all over the field, instead of trying to swing as hard as he can to pull everything. They were just talking in Tuesday's game about how Sano needs to figure out that he should hit like Miguel Cabrera, using the whole field. Sano is strong enough to hit home runs to right field, as well. It's the same thing that Dozier finally figured out this season. Using the whole field is a good thing.

http://twinsdaily.com/articles.html/_/minnesota-twins-news/minnesota-twins/brian-dozier-pulls-himself-out-of-slump-r4849

 

You mention Dozier, but did Dozier break out of his slump by hitting opposite field, or did he start hitting to all fields after he broke out of his slump?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

They've all been made into Twinkie Wiener Sandwiches.

image.jpeg

I'm not going to the State Fair til next week--no spoilers please

[ScrapTheNickname]

 

Yes.  Let's mess with the timing of the guy on the roster that they need to be hitting dingers.

What timing? Seriously, he needs coaching, badly. His approach isn't working.

[gunnarthor]

 

 

And if the player isn't a good little soldier and doesn't fall in line they become a pariah- the team publicly calls into question their work ethic or mental focus.

 

Ortiz, Liriano, Perkins, Dozier, Hicks, Buxton, Sano, Berrios, etc. These are just the examples I could think off the top of my head of players the Twins tried to make into something other than they were.

 

I just don't see that and those examples certainly don't help.  Ortiz roided up in Boston 15 years ago.  We can probably let that go.  Liriano wasn't much different in Pitt - maybe slightly more consistent but didn't reach the same level he had in his best years in MN.  Perkins became an all-star closer.  Dozier was a nothing prospect that has turned into a 5 WAR player.  Occasionally there has been some public criticism (although Molitor seems to do it more than Gardy did) but even that has been pretty mild.  Every team has moments - Maddon called out Wil Myers, Torre pushed a lot of Soriano's buttons back in the day, Reds management questioned Votto, La Russa was famous for things like that too.  But I don't see a lot to suggest that the Twins are turning players into pariahs.  

 

And the Twins have had a lot of different type of players at the same time.  It's hard to remember since we're in an ugly period but the Twins had rotations full of completely different arms - Santana, Liriano, Radke, Silva, etc.  They had small ball hitters but in 09 their 3-6 hitters avg 33 doubles and 30 HRs.  They developed multiple MVPs and a Cy Young winner.  Obviously, not every young guy worked out - that's normal - but they relied on them a ton and got pretty good success out of it.  Part of this might just be the "Twins way" mythology that was never quite true and now it's used as a negative reference instead.  

 

In any event, the next GM will have to make some changes.  I'm far more concerned with the ML changes than the development side.

[Doomtints]

 

What timing? Seriously, he needs coaching, badly. His approach isn't working.

 

Hitting opposite field requires a timing adjustment, especially if they want him hitting with the same amount of power.  

 

If they are trying to get him to hit opposite field with less power, they already have Joe Mauer for that and they probably need to be escorted off the premises immediately for trying to break Miguel Sano.