Sano's adjustment

[jimbo92107]

I hereby call off the dogs on Miguel Sano. Some may recall that I identified a weakness in Sano's approach at the plate, specifically that he was having trouble laying off inside pitches in the dirt when he had two strikes. Pitchers were regularly getting Sano out by getting a couple strikes on him, then dumping that inside sucker pitch at his feet. 

 

The flip side of that strategy appears to now be happening. What happens when Sano does lay off that pitch? 

 

Apparently, pitchers have no clue. Twice on Sunday, Sano laid off the inside dirt ball. Both times, the next pitch was a middle-in strike that Sano 2-ironed into the stands, including one that looked to be smoked somewhere in excess of 110mph. His last drive in the top of the ninth in Tampa was a ball I would NOT catch without a baseball mitt. That sucker would break ALL your fingers, not just one or two. 

 

It reminds me why the Twins were first attracted to Sano. He doesn't really have a "home run swing." Instead, he just hits fly balls that keep going and going, about twenty five yards farther than a mere mortal. 

 

Sano's apparent adjustment means that pitchers' lives just got more complicated again. If Sano continues to lay off the inside dirt ball, then how do you get him out? The game continues.

 

Meanwhile, the roster situation just got both simpler and more complicated. Who goes down when Plouffe comes up? Sure as heck won't be Sano, which means either Buxton or Vargas goes down. Vargas is playing good 1B, and his approach at the plate is vastly improved. Probably this means Buxton goes down, and he really does need to work on his approach. The outfield today is in pretty good hands with Grossman, Rosario, Kepler and Santana. Buxton will get his spot back when he refines his hitting game. 

 

Meanwhile meanwhile, what to do with Plouffe? Solid 3B, good hitter, but he can't do what Sano does. Twins need to move the guy. 

[drivlikejehu]

Sano was already among the most disciplined hitters in baseball. People are just looking for ways to jump back on the bandwagon. 

 

Pro tip - don't jump off so fast next time.

[dbminn]

Sometimes a commenter's insight is exceeded by their grace. Nice comments, Jimbo

[jimbo92107]

Sano was already among the most disciplined hitters in baseball. People are just looking for ways to jump back on the bandwagon. 

 

Pro tip - don't jump off so fast next time.

Tooshay. It's actually very reassuring that Miguel Sano was able to make this adjustment. I'm assuming that Tom Brunanski was working with him on it. Nothing is sweeter than baiting pitchers with their own trick. Hopefully Sano can continue laying off the inside dirt ball. However, now that it's not a surprise anymore, I'm also assuming that pitchers will figure out something a little better than a BP fastball after the dirt ball fails to get a flail. 

 

It's not just younger players that have to make adjustments. Brian Dozier was pounding high inside fastballs for a crazy amount of time before pitchers finally started working him outside, and then Dozier had to stop trying to pull everything. Took him half a season to do that. 

 

And then there's Byron Buxton, who doesn't appear to have a plan at all. The first thing Buxton has to do is learn to look for a certain pitch, based on video study the night before. That's what pros do. So far I have seen no evidence that Buxton does this at all. It's like he blanks out and flips a coin in his head before the pitch. Not a good strategy. If you don't execute your plan, then the pitcher will execute his. 

[DaveW]

I don't see it as an adjustment as much as it is that Sano is an elite power hitter and has an extremely good eye.

He had a cold stretch (which happens to all players) and for whatever reason this team feels the need to trash him and question his work ethic then just allowing things to work themselves out. The last few days have proven once again what we have all known what Sano is:

 

A guy who has the ability to completely take over a game and hit multiple home runs any given day.

[Rosterman]

It is a long season and a player has to keep their head in the game, especially a young player.

 

That is duty one of the coaching staff, especially if someone has talent (like Todd Walker, remember him?)

 

Someone has to be called on putting Sano in the outfield and playing that mind game with him. Then shoving him back to third with limited repititions at the spot (would it have hurt to keep him in the minors for another week or so...yes, because Plouffe disappeared). HE DIDN'T PLAY THIRD BASE FOR MOST OF A YEAR, FOLKS!

 

Yes, I was lobbying for sending him down. Just have to wait to see how the Plouffe situation plays out. I'm sure they will play Plouffe everyday. But will they also play Sano everyday...thus making Polanco and Vargas basically bench players.

 

I wish we had the epic decisions with our starting staff that has trouble getting out of the fifth innings.

[theBOMisthebomb]

The Sano to minors talk was nonsensical and this weekend showed why.

[Jham]

It was a single weekend in which he may have been playing for his roster spot. Let's see if he can put in the work to sustain that success. Hopefully he won't need the threat of demotion to get him going anymore. Message sent and heard!

[drivlikejehu]

 

It was a single weekend in which he may have been playing for his roster spot. Let's see if he can put in the work to sustain that success. Hopefully he won't need the threat of demotion to get him going anymore. Message sent and heard!

 

Good point. If he's not on the verge of demotion he doesn't really enjoy hitting home runs. Such a chore.

[DaveW]

It was a single weekend in which he may have been playing for his roster spot. Let's see if he can put in the work to sustain that success. Hopefully he won't need the threat of demotion to get him going anymore. Message sent and heard!

Not sure if serious.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

It was a single weekend in which he may have been playing for his roster spot. Let's see if he can put in the work to sustain that success. Hopefully he won't need the threat of demotion to get him going anymore. Message sent and heard!

The guy has 650 MLB PAs.

 

He has a career 135 OPS+. He has a 2016 121 OPS+. He's 23 years old.

 

Miguel Cabrera had a 141 OPS+ through his age 23 season but already had 2400 plate appearances, improving on his numbers every season.

 

I'm confused why we're even suggesting Sano lacks motivation. What are we expecting here, Ted Williams? Is anything short of a 200 OPS+ a failure?

[Craig Arko]

Kris Atteberry:

 

.@SanoMiguel is consistent:
2015: 80g 75 hits 18 HRs 119ks
2016: 79g 74 hits 18HRs 118ks

BBs, RBI, AVG, OPS down, but similar production

[Brock Beauchamp]

Kris Atteberry:

 

.@SanoMiguel is consistent:

2015: 80g 75 hits 18 HRs 119ks

2016: 79g 74 hits 18HRs 118ks

BBs, RBI, AVG, OPS down, but similar production

I noticed that this morning while checking stats. The difference between Miguel's 2015 and 2016 is a handful of walks and a few doubles.

 

Big deal.

[Mr. Brooks]

Yep, we actually have one of our prospects who come up from the minors and has thrived (offensively) from day 1, and people want to tear him down the first time he has a slump.

I don't get it.

The guy is already borderline elite offensively, and has 2 or 3 more full seasons before he even hits his prime.

[King]

Sano is now through one full MLB season played, essentially.

 

159 games played (678 PA), 36 home runs, 99 RBI, .259/.364/.503, .372 wOBA, 135 wRC+

 

He's a monster.

[d-mac]

 

Good point. If he's not on the verge of demotion he doesn't really enjoy hitting home runs. Such a chore.

 

Lazy Mauer just lazily walks to first. Lazy Sano lazily jogs around the bases after lazy homeruns.

[KGB]

 

I noticed that this morning while checking stats. The difference between Miguel's 2015 and 2016 is a handful of walks and a few doubles.

Big deal.

It's the difference between 2015's 151 wRC+ and a 2016's 120 wRC+

 

Maybe the difference between this season and the hope of an MVP season

 

http://twinsdaily.com/topic/21807-article-calling-it-miguel-sano-will-be-al-mvp/

[Jham]

 

The guy has 650 MLB PAs.

 

He has a career 135 OPS+. He has a 2016 121 OPS+. He's 23 years old.

 

Miguel Cabrera had a 141 OPS+ through his age 23 season but already had 2400 plate appearances, improving on his numbers every season.

 

I'm confused why we're even suggesting Sano lacks motivation. What are we expecting here, Ted Williams? Is anything short of a 200 OPS+ a failure?

 

 

Not sure if serious.

So there seemed to be a little confusion as to my post.  I'll clarify.  I was in the camp that questioned Sano's attitude while slumping and working to improve off last season's "take the league by storm" debut.  I'm also on the record as saying that I would not send him down, that I think a couple benchings would send an adequate message, especially since his production still helps the team, even if it's somewhat short of our lofty hopes and expectations. 

I'm cautioning those who think a good weekend suddenly means the light's on and Sano will stop over-extending counts, or laying off down and in and high and hard.  Or that this is somehow proof that Sano doesn't have a weight/defense/attitude/hitting approach/swing problem.  It's a good weekend from a player we know has the talent to carry a team in spurts.  Does he have the professionalism, work ethic, heart, and concentration to carry a franchise for a decade?  He probably has the talent to do so, but even his skills need development to get to that point.

Finally, if the talk of demotion was meant to send a message, it certainly appears that it worked without having to send him down.  Like many young players, I think a lot of it comes to dedication and attention to detail, especially in August and especially when you're in last place.  We had a whole thread discussing how to motivate and discipline Sano without upsetting him or having him push back.  Extremely difficult when he's one of your best players and vital to our future.  It looks like maybe the right amount of finesse was used to get Sano's attention without sending him down and without upsetting the future of the franchise.  Of course, like I said, it was just one weekend, but by appearances, whatever strategy was employed, by luck or by grace, seemed to work.  

[Jham]

 

Yep, we actually have one of our prospects who come up from the minors and has thrived (offensively) from day 1, and people want to tear him down the first time he has a slump.
I don't get it.
The guy is already borderline elite offensively, and has 2 or 3 more full seasons before he even hits his prime.

Who's tearing him down?  Who's hating?  He's a fantastic player, but far from complete.  People disagree on the best way of managing his talent, and if it's not straight up let Sano do whatever he wants, its hating?  If I said Mackenzie Alexander should have stayed at Clemson, picked off 3 passes next season, won another ACC Championship and BCS bowl appearance, and been the 1st corner off the board in 2017 instead of entering the 2016 draft and going in the 2nd round, am I a hater?  Do I have less belief in his talent?  

There are posters in this thread (Brock) who are comparing Sano to Miguel Cabrera.  The implication is that if a Sano is not a top 10 hitter all time, fans will never be satisfied.  Can our logic extend the other way?  That if we don't believe Sano is as good a hitter as Cab or Trout or Pujols, that doesn't mean we think he's a garbage player who needs extended AAA at bats or an attitude overhaul?

[Pardon My Dinger]

 

Who's tearing him down?  Who's hating?  

 

[Mr. Brooks]

Who's tearing him down? Who's hating? He's a fantastic player, but far from complete. People disagree on the best way of managing his talent, and if it's not straight up let Sano do whatever he wants, its hating? If I said Mackenzie Alexander should have stayed at Clemson, picked off 3 passes next season, won another ACC Championship and BCS bowl appearance, and been the 1st corner off the board in 2017 instead of entering the 2016 draft and going in the 2nd round, am I a hater? Do I have less belief in his talent?

 

There are posters in this thread (Brock) who are comparing Sano to Miguel Cabrera. The implication is that if a Sano is not a top 10 hitter all time, fans will never be satisfied. Can our logic extend the other way? That if we don't believe Sano is as good a hitter as Cab or Trout or Pujols, that doesn't mean we think he's a garbage player who needs extended AAA at bats or an attitude overhaul?

Guys who have done what he's done so far with the bat at age 23 don't need any more time in AAA.

 

And it's not one weekend. Look at his numbers as a whole.

It's not like he's hit like Buxton up until this weekend.

Of course he still takes bad at bats, he's 23 years old. He'll continue to have bad at bats for a few more years. But, he'll also put up monster numbers overall.

[Squirrel]

MODERATOR WARNING: If y'all can't have a discussion without resorting to childish attacks such as calling another poster a 'hater,' don't post. And if someone resorts to that towards you, please report it and DO NOT RESPOND. It's the quickest way to tear down a thread. 

[Jham]

Guys who have done what he's done so far with the bat at age 23 don't need any more time in AAA.

 

And it's not one weekend. Look at his numbers as a whole.

It's not like he's hit like Buxton up until this weekend.

Of course he still takes bad at bats, he's 23 years old. He'll continue to have bad at bats for a few more years. But, he'll also put up monster numbers overall.

Agreed. I think most people who wanted him sent down was for defense or discipline.

[ken]

 

Guys who have done what he's done so far with the bat at age 23 don't need any more time in AAA.

 

The Dodgers and Yasiel Puig will disagree. Or at least the Dodgers.

[Mr. Brooks]

 

 

Guys who have done what he's done so far with the bat at age 23 don't need any more time in AAA.

 

The Dodgers and Yasiel Puig will disagree. Or at least the Dodgers.

 

So you think that Puig "needs" more time in AAA?

Or do you think the Dodgers put him there while they figure out what to do with him?

 

I'm guessing it's the latter.

[Stateofhokey]

He needs base running practice.. that's a few error's in a few days.

[h2oface]

I don't see it as an adjustment as much as it is that Sano is an elite power hitter and has an extremely good eye.......

 

One thing he could do with that good plate discipline (proof he can develop discipline.....) is to extend what he will swing at or waste, especially with two strike counts. Walks are fine, but with runners on base for him to drive in, a better mature hitter will touch the ball and foul even the close ball off and have confidence in himself that when the pitcher finally makes the mistake in a deep count, he drives the runs in instead of taking a Walks and getting stranded with the other runners on the next batter's failure.

[Mr. Brooks]

One thing he could do with that good plate discipline (proof he can develop discipline.....) is to extend what he will swing at or waste, especially with two strike counts. Walks are fine, but with runners on base for him to drive in, a better mature hitter will touch the ball and foul even the close ball off and have confidence in himself that when the pitcher finally makes the mistake in a deep count, he drives the runs in instead of taking a Walks and getting stranded with the other runners on the next batter's failure.

He's got an OPS 70 pts higher with RISP, and 100 pts higher with men on base, than he does with the bases empty.

His approach in those situations seems pretty solid right now.

Of course, he will mature as a hitter, he's only 23, but I wouldn't want him to change his approach very much.

The strikeouts are part of his game and they don't bother me at all.

[jimbo92107]

The good news in all this is that Sano has showed he can fight back. Pitchers were dumping curves at his feet, and for a while, it worked. He started flailing, and then it looked like he was falling into Buxton's trap, where the hitter looks like he has no idea what's next. 

 

Then, finally, he laid off a pitch in the dirt. The pitcher looked stunned. That was supposed to work! Now what?? Next pitch, middle-in fastball. BOOOOOOM. Later same game, pitcher tried it again. Sano laid off. Next pitch: middle-in fastball. BOOOOOM. 

 

This doesn't mean that Sano will always lay off the inside dirt ball. After his two homer night, he did flail at a couple of them. But, it means the dirt ball is no longer a sure bet. Now, sometimes he swings, sometimes he doesn't. If he lays off, what do you do then? Try another and walk him? 

 

Other than that one pitch, Sano's plate discipline has been excellent. He doesn't swing at crazy pitches like Rosario used to. He's got a normal sized strike zone, and a good eye. In fact, if Sano can lay off the dirt ball fifty percent of the time, he wins. That's not an easy pitch to throw, and if it's just a little too high, or a little too close to the plate... BOOOOOOM. 

 

Keep in mind, the spot the catcher wants your dirt pitch to land is just slightly in front of Sano's front toe. That spot is about one foot from where Sano likes to tee up his two iron. It's a dangerous game, throwing the ball in that vicinity. Personally, I'd throw every pitch low and about a foot outside. Walk him every time.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

He's got an OPS 70 pts higher with RISP, and 100 pts higher with men on base, than he does with the bases empty.

His approach in those situations seems pretty solid right now.

Of course, he will mature as a hitter, he's only 23, but I wouldn't want him to change his approach very much.

The strikeouts are part of his game and they don't bother me at all.

yep, I'd rather he struck out on pitches he can't do something with than hit into a ton of double plays.