Manager Responsibility or Poor Performance

[KrnlDoug]

It was announced this morning that the Atlanta Braves have fired their manager, . The Braves similar to the Twins have had an incredibly rough start to this season going 9-28 in the first 37 games of the season. TR does not like to clean house in spring, nor does it seem like he likes to clean house, at all but after a similar start will the Twins make the same decision with Paul Molitor? 

 

When you compare the two managers, Fredi Gonzalez of the Braves has a much better record and has spent more time managing for his organization and has posted a 434-413 record or an 95% win percentage. Molitor on the other hand had posted a 93-106 record in his two years with the Twins so far or an 87% win percentage. 

 

My question to the interwebs is when is it time to cut ties with a manager. Who is responsible for poor performance? Players? Managers? Front Office? Should we part ways with Molitor due to poor performance or do we chalk it up to the growing pains of a new manager? 

[adorduan]

 

It was announced this morning that the Atlanta Braves have fired their manager, . The Braves similar to the Twins have had an incredibly rough start to this season going 9-28 in the first 37 games of the season. TR does not like to clean house in spring, nor does it seem like he likes to clean house, at all but after a similar start will the Twins make the same decision with Paul Molitor? 

 

When you compare the two managers, Fredi Gonzalez of the Braves has a much better record and has spent more time managing for his organization and has posted a 434-413 record or an 95% win percentage. Molitor on the other hand had posted a 93-106 record in his two years with the Twins so far or an 87% win percentage. 

 

My question to the interwebs is when is it time to cut ties with a manager. Who is responsible for poor performance? Players? Managers? Front Office? Should we part ways with Molitor due to poor performance or do we chalk it up to the growing pains of a new manager? 

I don't get your win percentage.

[DaveW]

There honestly isn't a real good argument to be made in keeping Molitor around. In addition to this team being terrible, they make a ton of mistakes that frankly shouldn't be made, also his in game strategy of refusing to PH for Suzuki, bunting non stop, defaulting to the mediorce veterans and leaving in Nolasco/Hughes too long leave  a lot to be desired frankly.

 

So yes, Molitor should be fired, along with the entire front office. In any other organization in ALL of sports this would have already happened by now.

[alarp33]

Personally, I've seen enough of Molitor and would be happy if they fired him now.  Not many managers would be able to survive something like a 63 win season during a year in which the GM and others were on record as saying winning the division was the plan.  

 

Part of the reason I would make the move in-season, is I would like to see Doug M or Gene Glynn be given a look - not that I think they should be the next Manager, I would let the new GM bring in his guy.. But give them a few months to see if they could potentially be the next guy

[Vanimal46]

You can point the finger at all of the above and make a good argument as to why they're the problem. Hence why even Jim Pohlad himself said this is a total system failure. Molitor has made some blunders as a manager, TR has certainly made blunders over the last couple of years, and the players aren't playing at a level they're capable of. 

Molitor's about to be 60 years old... TR is turning 63. At the end of this season they'll probably feel like they're 80 and 83. How much longer do they want to stick around? 

[Winston Smith]

We used to hear (for years by the way) about how it wasn't Gardy's fault it was the players, so why now is it the managers fault and not the players?

 

There isn't a manager, dead or alive, that could win with the starting pitching Ryan has put together. This mess isn't the managers fault it's Ryan's fault!

 

I'm not defending Molitor because he has his faults to be sure but the mess this team is in is on Ryan, imo.

 

Get a new GM and let him decide who he wants to manage the team.

[alarp33]

 

We used to hear (for years by the way) about how it wasn't Gardy's fault it was the players, so why now is it the managers fault and not the players?

 

 

Well I don't recall years of people sticking up for Gardy (didn't we want him gone 2 years before it actually happened?), it was pretty obvious in 2 or 3 of the 90 loss seasons that the teams were 90 loss teams. The General Manager said before this season began that winning the division was the realistic goal - they are 10-27. 

 

And yeah, I put much of it on Ryan... I'm just disagreeing with your Gardy comparison

[jimmer]

The GM for the Braves gave the manager nothing to work with.  Roster is horrible.  Isn't a manager alive that could have made that clock tick.

 

Our GM hasn't given our manager a lot either.  Very poor roster construction not to mention leaving benches, and overworked bullpens, short during various games. We've also seen Molitor submit horrendous lineups and he seems to have zero feel for in-game management. 

 

Ironically, of the two GMs and two managers, the one who deserved to get fired least is the one who got just got fired.

 

[Mr. Brooks]

Our manager pinch hit Arcia against a lefty last night.

Let that sink in a bit.

Someone screwed up really badly if Arcia vs a lefty is ever your best move.

[David HK]

Since last season, I've been sick to death of Molly's head-scratching moves.  Sure, a manager has more info than the fan on the street, and has to play the long game with  a whole season in mind, so sometimes his lineups or moves leave fans with a question.  But with Molly, it's not occasionally.  It's every dang day, some bizarre lineup positioning, some bizarre move, or lack of one, and I'm not even going to go into the mis-management of the young guys that have been called up.

 

I was one of those in the Dougie camp, but understood their reasoning, and was more than willing to see what Molly could do.  I think we've seen that now.  

 

I'm done with this guy.  

[clutterheart]

 

How much longer do they want to stick around? 

 

This is what I can't get my brain around.  Terry Ryan has totally tarnished his legacy and has become one of the worst GM's in baseball history.  - I didn't look this up, but he has to be in among the leaders in losses as a GM, right?

While Moliter HOF career now has the stain of being a manager for the MN Twins.

 

Why do either want this job?

 

 

[alarp33]

"I'm not on the bandwagon it's a lost season, let's get these kids some MLB experience. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I don't think anybody thinks that it's lost."  - Molitor

 

This is disturbing to say the least.  Not that I blame him for not throwing in the towel already, but the fact that he thinks it makes no sense to play Polanco, etc.. and continues to throw Hughes, Nolasco, DSantana, etc. out there... wow

[lukeduke1980]

Last year Robin Ventura was on the hot seat.  This year, after addressing outfield defense with Jackson and moving Eaton, and making 2 smart trades for Frazier and Lawrie, and adding a couple of solid veteran catchers: First Place.

 

A GM who sits on his hands and invents garbage like 280 lb right fielders, more Casey Fien, a AA catcher for a plus defensive outfielder, a Korean slugger to DH to keep bad defenders in the field:  Fire the Manager?

[beckmt]

I am also in the group who thinks Molly should go.  Bullpen is overused and a mess, youth is not playing when they are with the Twins.  Go with Dougie for the time being or Gene Glynn and see what they can produce.  Youth has to be served except for veterans playing to establish value before trades.

Remember before the last good years there were last place finishes in the years prior or two years prior to the twins becoming good.

[alarp33]

 

Last year Robin Ventura was on the hot seat.  This year, after addressing outfield defense with Jackson and moving Eaton, and making 2 smart trades for Frazier and Lawrie, and adding a couple of solid veteran catchers: First Place.

 

A GM who sits on his hands and invents garbage like 280 lb right fielders, more Casey Fien, a AA catcher for a plus defensive outfielder, a Korean slugger to DH to keep bad defenders in the field:  Fire the Manager?

 

To be fair, the White Sox won 76 games last year - the Twins are on pace to win 42.  This is a bit beyond "oh man kind of a disappointing start", its full on dumpster fire.  

 

I think the GM is even more to blame, but I don't see how anyone can watch this team day in and day out and think Molitor has any clue what he is doing.  On a game by game basis, the lineups, pitching decisions, pinch hit vs not pinch hit are extremely poor to say the least.  On a longer term view, nearly every prospect that comes up is being handled poorly, is struggling, and going back down.  Does he deserve blame for player development at the ML level?

[Mike Sixel]

Both, imo.....and the players. When the owner said total system failure, he was correct.....

 

The GM was wrong about a lot of his decisions.

The manager makes a head scratcher more often than any time I can recall, and, possibly more importantly, does not seem to understand where they are in the development process. 

The players just aren't that good (now, that's partly on the manager).

 

So, I am not in on picking 1 person/group as the problem......

[SirLoin]

As much as it kills me to agree with a StarTrib columnist, this list from Sunday's paper is exactly what needs to happen.

 

PLUS THREE FROM PATRICK

Predictions on what will befall the Twins at end of an already-horrific 2016:

*Terry Ryan will announce in September that he is retiring after the season.

*Twins ownership will throw numerous millions at Jed Hoyer to leave Theo Epstein’s shadow with the Cubs.

*Hoyer will blow up the baseball operation, including the on-field staff. Next manager: Torey Lovullo.

[Squirrel]

 

Both, imo.....and the players. When the owner said total system failure, he was correct.....

 

The GM was wrong about a lot of his decisions.

The manager makes a head scratcher more often than any time I can recall, and, possibly more importantly, does not seem to understand where they are in the development process. 

The players just aren't that good (now, that's partly on the manager).

 

So, I am not in on picking 1 person/group as the problem......

In this case I'd say this about right. So often when teams are doing poorly ... even this poorly ... too much blame is placed on the manager and he ends up being the sacrificial lamb. While I wouldn't be against firing Molitor (he wasn't my choice to begin with), I don't know what good it does to fire him alone. As long as the GM is putting the people out on the field as he is, what's anyone to do? Hate to say it, but maybe the best course is to ride out this storm of the season and hope the right moves are made in the Fall. 

[Squirrel]

 

As much as it kills me to agree with a StarTrib columnist, this list from Sunday's paper is exactly what needs to happen.

 

PLUS THREE FROM PATRICK

Predictions on what will befall the Twins at end of an already-horrific 2016:

*Terry Ryan will announce in September that he is retiring after the season.

*Twins ownership will throw numerous millions at Jed Hoyer to leave Theo Epstein’s shadow with the Cubs.

*Hoyer will blow up the baseball operation, including the on-field staff. Next manager: Torey Lovullo.

This was brought up in another thread ... there are a few pages discussing this.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

"I'm not on the bandwagon it's a lost season, let's get these kids some MLB experience. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I don't think anybody thinks that it's lost."  - Molitor

 

This is disturbing to say the least.  Not that I blame him for not throwing in the towel already, but the fact that he thinks it makes no sense to play Polanco, etc.. and continues to throw Hughes, Nolasco, DSantana, etc. out there... wow

Yeah, I understand saying stuff like that publicly, but your actions have to reflect otherwise.  You can play Polanco a lot, start Berrios, Meyer, and/or May, and still give lip service to trying to win today, it's not like he has to field the full AAA lineup.

[Homer Hanky]

It's time for us to bring up the guy who should have won the job in the first place... 

 

#dougiebaseball please... 

 

I love Molitor but, he is not proving his worth. 

[nicksaviking]

I am in the camp of making wholesale changes, and wholesale changes just aren't plausible to make in-season. While I wouldn't be against firing Molitor now, if it happens, rightfully or wrongfully, I think plenty of people are going to interpret it as a defensive move by the front office trying to deflect blame from themselves. We heard a lot of those comments after Gardy got the axe and Ryan stayed.

 

On the other hand, if no drastic off-season changes are made, giving Gene Glynn the job now would be about the best chance to get an honest to goodness evaluation of a guy who may be pretty good candidate. Though again, I do not want this organization to continue with the in-house promotions.

[Mike Sixel]

If your GM gives you Danny Santana, Eddie Rosario, and Miguel Sano as your OF choices........ouch. Seriously, those first two have to be near worst every day players in baseball.......So, while I don't love the manager, I put this mostly on the GM.

[Squirrel]

 

If your GM gives you Danny Santana, Eddie Rosario, and Miguel Sano as your OF choices........ouch. Seriously, those first two have to be near worst every day players in baseball.......So, while I don't love the manager, I put this mostly on the GM.

As do I. I've said it before, many times in a few seasons now ... if you want change, it starts from the outside and from the top down. Short of that, same ol' same ol'. Sure, you might get lucky and hit things right, but enough is enough.

[Loosey]

I think Jim Pohlad said it best (I can't believe I just said that), Its a Total System Failure.  In my mind that means ownership, front office and on-field management/coaching as well as the players.

 

Terry Ryan is to blame for a most of this mess.  Fans were clamoring for years to spend money, and he wouldn't do it.  Then out of nowhere he goes and does spend money, but he went half-ass in my opinion.  Giving Hughes and Nolasco decent sized contracts (in a Terrible FA pitcher class year). He could have waited a year and tried signing one very nice FA pitcher instead since 2014, was not going to be a good year.  But Terry Ryan is risk averse, and signing two medium sized contracts, in theory, have a better chance of not blowing up as easily as one very large signing would.  But in this case both now have.  Now they are both unmovable and at the same time blocking other potential starting pitchers. 

 

And that is just one blunder. 

[gmarais66]

This thread just kills me. Everyone wants Molitor fired. Even after the encouraging year they had last year. If you think he is the main problem, step back, take a deep breath and look at the big picture. Where are the problems? Bullpen? Definitely. Outfield? For sure. Lack of a decent catcher? Obviously. Starting rotation? Yep.  So, who created this mess. Not Molitor. It was Terry Ryan. Molitor can only work with what he is given and there is no manager in baseball that is going to turn this mess into a contender. For all those who are calling for Molitor's dismissal, what do you think a new manager is going to do differently to turn things around? Sano will still be in right field. Rosario and Arcia will still be the choices for left field (all those calling for Kepler to be called up haven't been monitoring what he's doing/not doing in Rochester). Santana or, god forbid, Mastroianni are your choices for CF until Buxton is ready. A new manager will still have the same flawed bullpen to work with. The new manager will still have to put Nolasco on the mound every five days. Thinking a manager change will fix this if pure fantasy.

[Mike Sixel]

No one, I don't think, has said firing Molitor will fix things........but that doesn't mean that Molitor is not part of the problem.

 

Sending Rosario down won't fix things, does that mean it shouldn't be done?

[Twinsbar107]

 

"I'm not on the bandwagon it's a lost season, let's get these kids some MLB experience. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I don't think anybody thinks that it's lost."  - Molitor

 

This is disturbing to say the least.  Not that I blame him for not throwing in the towel already, but the fact that he thinks it makes no sense to play Polanco, etc.. and continues to throw Hughes, Nolasco, DSantana, etc. out there... wow

 

Does he not know how to read standings? Maybe that is the problem, seriously how can he think we are still in contention? We are on pace to win like 40 some games. That quote blows my mind.

[nicksaviking]

 

 For all those who are calling for Molitor's dismissal, what do you think a new manager is going to do differently to turn things around?

 

Not pulling starters ridiculously early and taxing an already terrible bullpen.

 

Not pinch running for your best players late in the game when the odds of that player batting again are much higher than the odds of the increased speed actually making a difference.

 

Pinch hit for a poor hitting catcher late in games.

 

Call for fewer bunts in clear non-bunting situations.

 

Give Tonkin or whoever the current hot hand is the closer job instead of making Jepsen the de facto closer.

 

Not waiting a month to remove Dozier from the top of the lineup.

 

Not waiting a month and a half to move up Park in the batting order.

 

Not sitting the young players when they need playing time.

 

Just off the top of my head.

 

I put more blame on Ryan as well, but Molitor has not done a very good job.

[Loosey]

 

"I'm not on the bandwagon it's a lost season, let's get these kids some MLB experience. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I don't think anybody thinks that it's lost."  - Molitor

 

This is disturbing to say the least.  Not that I blame him for not throwing in the towel already, but the fact that he thinks it makes no sense to play Polanco, etc.. and continues to throw Hughes, Nolasco, DSantana, etc. out there... wow

That Molitor quote is something someone would say when they are about to lose their job and/or about to lose their veteran players.  Of course he has to say something like that.  If he says were going to start playing the kids soon, the veteran guys are going to be pissed and there will be even more issues than there already are.