Manager Responsibility or Poor Performance

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

McPhail was hired in August, 1985.  Pretty sure he would not have gone (149 games) into the 1986 season with an "interim" manager

Do you understand "all intents and purposes"?  Miller wasn't officially interim, but he was a midseason hire given a 1.5 year contract by what was clearly an interim GM.  That's interim for all intents and purposes.  Doesn't mean he's going to get fired right away by the new GM, but at best his contract probably isn't getting renewed.  MacPhail was a first-time GM, youngest ever in the sport, and took over late in a season -- just because he took 12 months to find and install his permanent choice for manager doesn't mean Howard Fox giving Ray Miller a 1.5 year contract to replace Billy Garner midseason was a comparably significant move.

 

There was only one significant "management change" for the mid-1980s Twins, and that was the new owners handing to keys to MacPhail in August 1985.  The moves in the year before and after the MacPhail hire were clearly moves related to that transition to new ownership.

 

To your original point, suggesting that the Pohlads firing TR or Molitor now would be comparable to how they replaced Griffith, Fox, Gardner, and Miller in the mid-1980s is ignoring all context of history.

[dxpavelka]

 

Do you understand "all intents and purposes"?  Miller wasn't officially interim, but he was a midseason hire given a 1.5 year contract by what was clearly an interim GM.  That's interim for all intents and purposes.  Doesn't mean he's going to get fired right away by the new GM, but at best his contract probably isn't getting renewed.  MacPhail was a first-time GM, youngest ever in the sport, and took over late in a season -- just because he took 12 months to find and install his permanent choice for manager doesn't mean Howard Fox giving Ray Miller a 1.5 year contract to replace Billy Garner midseason was a comparably significant move.

 

There was only one significant "management change" for the mid-1980s Twins, and that was the new owners handing to keys to MacPhail in August 1985.  The moves in the year before and after the MacPhail hire were clearly moves related to that transition to new ownership.

 

To your original point, suggesting that the Pohlads firing TR or Molitor now would be comparable to how they replaced Griffith, Fox, Gardner, and Miller in the mid-1980s is ignoring all context of history.

You seem to have actually missed my original point which was that like the 84-87 timeframe a lot of things would still need to happen between 2015 and 2018 or whatever point this team contends again and that those with great expectations based on 2015 would be in for a rude awakening.  Case in point:  2016.

[wsnydes]

 

Funny he managed a lot of these guys that look totally unprepared when they come up.

While I'm not really arguing against your point, if we're blaming just skippers I'd say that is more a symptom of all of the minor league skippers rather than just one.  

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

You seem to have actually missed my original point which was that like the 84-87 timeframe a lot of things would still need to happen between 2015 and 2018 or whatever point this team contends again and that those with great expectations based on 2015 would be in for a rude awakening.  Case in point:  2016.

Sure, that's fine.  I simply pointed out that your management turnover example of "rude awakenings" from 84-87 was largely not tied to performance.  Our GM change certainly wasn't.  Arguably Garner's dismissal wasn't either, coming with a 27-35 record that would put the 2016 Twins to shame, and Miller's dismissal was likely more about MacPhail gradually asserting control rather than Miller falling short of great expectations (how great of expectations can there possibly be on a 1.5 year contract from an interim GM of a moribund franchise?).

 

The general point of 2015 being more of a performance blip like 1984 than an immediate trend (like, say, 2001) is certainly valid.  We can only hope at this point that there will rude awakenings among ownership and management if the timeline is pushed back to 2018.

[dxpavelka]

 

Sure, that's fine.  I simply pointed out that your management turnover example of "rude awakenings" from 84-87 was largely not tied to performance.  Our GM change certainly wasn't.  Arguably Garner's dismissal wasn't either, coming with a 27-35 record that would put the 2016 Twins to shame, and Miller's dismissal was likely more about MacPhail gradually asserting control rather than Miller falling short of great expectations (how great of expectations can there possibly be on a 1.5 year contract from an interim GM of a moribund franchise?).

 

The general point of 2015 being more of a performance blip like 1984 than an immediate trend (like, say, 2001) is certainly valid.  We can only hope at this point that there will rude awakenings among ownership and management if the timeline is pushed back to 2018.

I'd call 2018 a best case scenario.

[nicksaviking]

College teams playing against the pros in Spring Training have a better record than this team does currently. Something more is at play than a lack of talent or managerial mistakes. It's something intangible, whether it's "leadership", "attitude", "complacency", "inexperience", "effort" or "extra-terrestrial contagious brain washing".

 

It really doesn't matter who's "fault" it is, we already saw a possible remedy when this team fired Gardenhire despite little tangible evidence pointing to him being a poor manager. This is basically the same team from last year and still has most of the same core guys from Gardy's last year. It happens all the time, getting a new manager changes something, even if it can't be measured.

 

Winning and being fair to your employees are unfortunately often mutually exclusive, ask just about everyone who has gotten downsized from a Fortune 500 company despite the company still producing record profits. As businessmen, the Pohlads certainly are well aware of this. The only difference is, we as fans measure the profits by Wins.

[LimestoneBaggy]

I tend to be a GM apologist here, but my intuition is that it's not Ryan or Molitor directly, it's an organizational fault of not properly identifying and utilizing talents:

 

Quick Examples:

 

Front Office/Management:

1. Promote Bill Smith to GM when he clearly was strong in non-player related baseball aspects.

2. Use Ryan in a position other than roving talent evaluation after Smith crashed and burned.

3. Hire Molitor who was more of a special situation coach (stealing, fielding, hitting). 

 

Players

1. Not using platoons.

2. May, Meyer, Tonkin, Dean and any other pitcher they use for the wrong spots/places.

3. Sano in the outfield (we can squabble here due to roster crunches).

 

There are plenty of other example of using talent in the wrong spot. I have a problem with the organization misusing talent and placing people outside of their positions of strengths. 

 

It's time for a visit from the Bobs to look at the entire problem and start over. This one's on the owners.

 

[owenowain]

Molitor is not the problem, he can only play the guys given him by Ryan. Ryan ignoring the bullpen should be reason for him to step down. Without pitching you have nothing.

[chopper0080]

When you have almost an entire roster of players who are putting up numbers under their career averages, it is a managerial problem.  

 

When you have a roster in which the younger players are showing a lack of fundamentals, essentially both in their process and the results are poor, then your manager needs to go, now.

 

When you have a roster that can't compete with other teams even when they are putting up career average numbers, that is a GM problem.  

[nicksaviking]

 

I tend to be a GM apologist here, but my intuition is that it's not Ryan or Molitor directly, it's an organizational fault of not properly identifying and utilizing talents:

 

Quick Examples:

 

Front Office/Management:

1. Promote Bill Smith to GM when he clearly was strong in non-player related baseball aspects.

2. Use Ryan in a position other than roving talent evaluation after Smith crashed and burned.

3. Hire Molitor who was more of a special situation coach (stealing, fielding, hitting). 

 

Players

1. Not using platoons.

2. May, Meyer, Tonkin, Dean and any other pitcher they use for the wrong spots/places.

3. Sano in the outfield (we can squabble here due to roster crunches).

 

There are plenty of other example of using talent in the wrong spot. I have a problem with the organization misusing talent and placing people outside of their positions of strengths. 

 

It's time for a visit from the Bobs to look at the entire problem and start over. This one's on the owners.

 

Ryan picked his successor, aren't those top three complaints all Ryan's responsibilities?

 

And aren't the bottom three Molitor's responsibilities?

 

If one was going to take umbrage with these issues, the only culpability the owners have are not firing the GM or President of the team. I for one am more than thrilled that the Pohlad's don't meddle in player development, and on-field strategy. That would be awful, just awful.

[alarp33]

 

I tend to be a GM apologist here, but my intuition is that it's not Ryan or Molitor directly, it's an organizational fault of not properly identifying and utilizing talents:

 

Quick Examples:

 

Front Office/Management:

1. Promote Bill Smith to GM when he clearly was strong in non-player related baseball aspects.

2. Use Ryan in a position other than roving talent evaluation after Smith crashed and burned.

3. Hire Molitor who was more of a special situation coach (stealing, fielding, hitting). 

 

Players

1. Not using platoons.

2. May, Meyer, Tonkin, Dean and any other pitcher they use for the wrong spots/places.

3. Sano in the outfield (we can squabble here due to roster crunches).

 

There are plenty of other example of using talent in the wrong spot. I have a problem with the organization misusing talent and placing people outside of their positions of strengths. 

 

It's time for a visit from the Bobs to look at the entire problem and start over. This one's on the owners.

 

I agree with most of your points in how they are using players/ personel wrong, but pretty much everything you listed is a GM or Managers job... 

[LimestoneBaggy]

 

I agree with most of your points in how they are using players/ personel wrong, but pretty much everything you listed is a GM or Managers job... 

 

I agree, but I think the problem is organizationally systemic.

 

The owners continue to retain or allow the retention of people outside their positions of strength (and don't seem to recognize the issue if they keep backing Ryan). To be clear, I actually like Ryan and have defended many of his moves, but this year and some of the ongoing issues are changing my mind.

 

However, both you and Nick are correct in the details are controlled by these individuals, but the larger concern is the track history of the replacements. The organizations replaces (albeit few and far between) personnel with other personnel that seem to be out of their strong suits, and this is my fear with moving on. They will not seek someone (or multiple people) with people well suited to meet the position. The system is really struggling with Peter principle (Ryan hand picks Smith...)

 

Hope I did a better job of explaining my point.

[Mr. Brooks]

I agree, but I think the problem is organizationally systemic.

 

 

Would you call it a total system failure?

[Richie the Rally Goat]

This thread just kills me. Everyone wants Molitor fired. Even after the encouraging year they had last year. If you think he is the main problem, step back, take a deep breath and look at the big picture. Where are the problems? Bullpen? Definitely. Outfield? For sure. Lack of a decent catcher? Obviously. Starting rotation? Yep. So, who created this mess. Not Molitor. It was Terry Ryan. Molitor can only work with what he is given and there is no manager in baseball that is going to turn this mess into a contender. For all those who are calling for Molitor's dismissal, what do you think a new manager is going to do differently to turn things around? Sano will still be in right field. Rosario and Arcia will still be the choices for left field (all those calling for Kepler to be called up haven't been monitoring what he's doing/not doing in Rochester). Santana or, god forbid, Mastroianni are your choices for CF until Buxton is ready. A new manager will still have the same flawed bullpen to work with. The new manager will still have to put Nolasco on the mound every five days. Thinking a manager change will fix this if pure fantasy.

you are right, changing the manager will not fix the main problem, however I have seen a severe lack of competence in Molitor and do not believe he should be a part of the team's future. However there's no point in changing manager with the rest of the FO in tact

[Mr. Brooks]

Mollies decisions get worse and more bizarre by the day.

Wondering if anyone still thinks he's not part of the problem?