Manager Responsibility or Poor Performance

[alarp33]

 

That Molitor quote is something someone would say when they are about to lose their job and/or about to lose their veteran players.  Of course he has to say something like that.  If he says were going to start playing the kids soon, the veteran guys are going to be pissed and there will be even more issues than there already are.

 

Just curious... if veteran guys get mad, what do you think is going to happen exactly?  They might win only 8 of their next 38 games, instead of the 10 of 38 they've won so far? 

 

Yes, its fine to say we aren't giving up.  No, he does not have to be publicly dismissive of the young cornerstones of the roster.  

 

It is possible to just find playing time for a guy like Polanco, without announcing "This season is over, might as well play Polanco".  Hell, they might get better results from him then they are currently getting from some of the infielders, and win more games. .  

 

 

[gmarais66]

 

Not pulling starters ridiculously early and taxing an already terrible bullpen.

 

Not pinch running for your best players late in the game when the odds of that player batting again are much higher than the odds of the increased speed actually making a difference.

 

Pinch hit for a poor hitting catcher late in games.

 

Call for fewer bunts in clear non-bunting situations.

 

Give Tonkin or whoever the current hot hand is the closer job instead of making Jepsen the de facto closer.

 

Not waiting a month to remove Dozier from the top of the lineup.

 

Not waiting a month and a half to move up Park in the batting order.

 

Not sitting the young players when they need playing time.

 

Just off the top of my head.

 

I put more blame on Ryan as well, but Molitor has not done a very good job.

These comments are pretty much baseless.

 

- More often than not, starters have caused themselves to be pulled from games, not Molitor pulling them too early.

 

- How many times has putting a pinch runner in a game late cost the Twins a win?

 

- Have you seen his options for pinch hitting late in a game?

 

- If you can't get hits, bunting is a logical option.

 

- There are no hot hands in the Twins' bullpen.

 

- How many managers would quickly remove an all-star player from the top of the lineup?

 

- Park is a rookie and it's logical to keep him lower in the batting order, until he has proven himself. Not to mention, Park hasn't exactly been lights out with RISP.

 

- Outside of Polanco and Kepler, who were not called up to be starters, I'm not sure he's exactly been sitting young players. Unless you thought John Ryan Murphy should have been playing more...

 

 

[alarp33]

 

These comments are pretty much baseless.

 

- More often than not, starters have caused themselves to be pulled from games, not Molitor pulling them too early.

 

- How many times has putting a pinch runner in a game late cost the Twins a win?

 

- Have you seen his options for pinch hitting late in a game?

 

- If you can't get hits, bunting is a logical option.

 

- There are no hot hands in the Twins' bullpen.

 

- How many managers would quickly remove an all-star player from the top of the lineup?

 

- Park is a rookie and it's logical to keep him lower in the batting order, until he has proven himself. Not to mention, Park hasn't exactly been lights out with RISP.

 

- Outside of Polanco and Kepler, who were not called up to be starters, I'm not sure he's exactly been sitting young players. Unless you thought John Ryan Murphy should have been playing more...

 

This is some serious straw grasping.  Maybe we shouldn't even have a manager, it doesn't sound as if they are really responsible for anything.  

[Otto von Ballpark]

Slightly off topic, but Park is a pretty athletic guy, right?  Looks great at 1B, and his Korean club at least entertained the idea of him playing third.

 

Now that he's a bit more comfortable at the plate, could we get him some more reps in a corner outfield spot?  Not a huge deal, but it would enable us to DH Plouffe, Dozier, Nunez, etc. if those are veteran bats you want to keep in the lineup while you play Sano at 3B, Polanco, and other youngsters. (Or Sano at DH, or Mauer at DH and Plouffe or Sano at 1B, etc.)

 

I know the ship has probably sailed with Mauer in the corner outfield, but I'd be curious to try it with Park, even if it's not his long-term position, as long as most of our present outfielders are a mess.  I'd rather see Park take most of Rosario's reps if he's demoted, rather than Robbie Grossman.  Having two exclusive 1B/DH guys that need to be in the lineup every day seems rather restricting.

[Loosey]

 

Just curious... if veteran guys get mad, what do you think is going to happen exactly?  They might win only 8 of their next 38 games, instead of the 10 of 38 they've won so far? 

 

Yes, its fine to say we aren't giving up.  No, he does not have to be publicly dismissive of the young cornerstones of the roster.  

 

It is possible to just find playing time for a guy like Polanco, without announcing "This season is over, might as well play Polanco".  Hell, they might get better results from him then they are currently getting from some of the infielders, and win more games. .  

I'm not saying that happy veterans will make a difference.  I was trying to make a point that there is no way Molitor can actually believe what he was saying.  For his own benefit he has to say that.  If he didn't his own job gets much more difficult than it already is with unhappy vets.

[Loosey]

 

 

These comments are pretty much baseless.

 

- More often than not, starters have caused themselves to be pulled from games, not Molitor pulling them too early.

 

- How many times has putting a pinch runner in a game late cost the Twins a win?

 

- Have you seen his options for pinch hitting late in a game?

 

- If you can't get hits, bunting is a logical option.

 

- There are no hot hands in the Twins' bullpen.

 

- How many managers would quickly remove an all-star player from the top of the lineup?

 

- Park is a rookie and it's logical to keep him lower in the batting order, until he has proven himself. Not to mention, Park hasn't exactly been lights out with RISP.

 

- Outside of Polanco and Kepler, who were not called up to be starters, I'm not sure he's exactly been sitting young players. Unless you thought John Ryan Murphy should have been playing more...

Alex Meyer.

[alarp33]

 

I'm not saying that happy veterans will make a difference.  I was trying to make a point that there is no way Molitor can actually believe what he was saying.  For his own benefit he has to say that.  If he didn't his own job gets much more difficult than it already is with unhappy vets.

 

The problem is, his actions line up with those words.  Jorge Polanco just the most recent example (Alex Meyer, Kepler, etc)

[d-mac]

 

We used to hear (for years by the way) about how it wasn't Gardy's fault it was the players, so why now is it the managers fault and not the players?

 

There isn't a manager, dead or alive, that could win with the starting pitching Ryan has put together. This mess isn't the managers fault it's Ryan's fault!

 

I'm not defending Molitor because he has his faults to be sure but the mess this team is in is on Ryan, imo.

 

Get a new GM and let him decide who he wants to manage the team.

 

Totally true, but Molitor certainly isn't helping- he's not the guy I want leading the players going forward. And while it's impossible to quantitatively measure a manager's/coaching staff's affect on the team, I like to use the difference between pythag W-L and/or Fangraphs' BaseRuns vs their actual performance as proxy for judging a coaching staff's affect on a team's performance. Right now the Twins have underperformed their pythag by 2 wins and their baseruns by 4 wins. 

[jimmer]

 

. Right now the Twins have underperformed their pythag by 2 wins and their baseruns by 4 wins. 

and is we had two more wins or four more wins, we'd still be last in the AL.  This roster was poorly put together.  Molitor hasn't helped, but this roster, IMO, is the biggest problem.

[HitInAPinch]

 

I don't get your win percentage.

You made my day.  And I'm a day late! 

[d-mac]

 

and is we had two more wins or four more wins, we'd still be last in the AL.  This roster was poorly put together.  Molitor hasn't helped, but this roster, IMO, is the biggest problem.

 

Not disagreeing, but the point of this thread is whether or not Molitor should be kept. He's clearly part of the problem and not the answer, but maybe #5 on a list or 20 things to fix. We have to start somewhere, don't we?

[Riverbrian]

 

Our manager pinch hit Arcia against a lefty last night.
Let that sink in a bit.
Someone screwed up really badly if Arcia vs a lefty is ever your best move.

 

According to Molitor... Santana was having an eye issue. His eye was consistently watering so Paul removed him from the game because he was having trouble seeing and he didn't want to send up to the plate dangerously compromised. 

 

My speculation was that Molitor probably wouldn't have pinch hit otherwise. 

 

He had a choice between Arcia and Mastro... A Blast would have tied. 

 

Under the circumstance... I can't fault Paul for that. 

[alarp33]

 

 

He had a choice between Arcia and Mastro... A Blast would have tied. 

 

Under the circumstance... I can't fault Paul for that. 

 

Polanco was also available.  Say Polanco finds a way on (which he has done pretty often in tiny sample sizes), even if Mauer doesn't drive him in... you've just assured Park of an at bat in the 9th

[Riverbrian]

 

Polanco was also available.  Say Polanco finds a way on (which he has done pretty often in tiny sample sizes), even if Mauer doesn't drive him in... you've just assured Park of an at bat in the 9th

 

Another option... Sure but not damning evidence of mis-mangement in my opinion. 

[Riverbrian]

I have a few thoughts

 

#1 -- I will never condemn a manager for thinking different than I do. Paul has made some decisions that make me wonder but so did Gardy and so has other managers of other teams. In the end... I will judge by what happens on the scoreboard which brings me to the next thought. 

 

#2 -- 2016 hasn't gone well on the field and the Manager must shoulder blame but you also can't pretend 2015 didn't happen. The Twins over achieved under Molitor's guidance so it's not as cut and dried as I need it to be. 

 

#3 -- If... a conclusion is drawn that Molitor is a bad manager by me... you or anyone. None of us can escape the simple fact that Terry Ryan made the decision to hire him. No matter how you slice and dice it... It will always fall back into the lap of the GM... and in the end Jim Pohlad because he hired the people who hired the people. 

 

It's a total system failure... Blame isn't in the middle... It's at the top... It always is. 

[alarp33]

 

Another option... Sure but not damning evidence of mis-mangement in my opinion. 

 

Sure - a fairly minor nitpick in the grand scheme of things... but a lot of these minor nitpicks add up over time.  Just another example of him not putting players in the best position to succeed.  

 

FWIW - Arcia has a career OPS of .617 vs lefties. 

 

My other question from the exact same game would be - why was Pat Dean asked to pitch the 7th? You've suddenly tied the game, and Dean with 80+ pitches, facing Castellanos for the 3rd time is the best option??

[Mike Sixel]

 

I have a few thoughts

 

#1 -- I will never condemn a manager for thinking different than I do. Paul has made some decisions that make me wonder but so did Gardy and so has other managers of other teams. In the end... I will judge by what happens on the scoreboard which brings me to the next thought. 

 

#2 -- 2016 hasn't gone well on the field and the Manager must shoulder blame but you also can't pretend 2015 didn't happen. The Twins over achieved under Molitor's guidance so it's not as cut and dried as I need it to be. 

 

#3 -- If... a conclusion is drawn that Molitor is a bad manager by me... you or anyone. None of us can escape the simple fact that Terry Ryan made the decision to hire him. No matter how you slice and dice it... It will always fall back into the lap of the GM... and in the end Jim Pohlad because he hired the people who hired the people. 

 

It's a total system failure... Blame isn't in the middle... It's at the top... It always is. 

 

How about if a manager consistently makes decisions that over time are bad, according to the math? Then can we criticize him? 

[nicksaviking]

According to Molitor... Santana was having an eye issue. His eye was consistently watering so Paul removed him from the game because he was having trouble seeing and he didn't want to send up to the plate dangerously compromised. 

 

My speculation was that Molitor probably wouldn't have pinch hit otherwise. 

 

He had a choice between Arcia and Mastro... A Blast would have tied. 

 

Under the circumstance... I can't fault Paul for that.

 

I'm surprised there aren't more watery eyes in that dugout.

 

Danny, are you crying?! There's no crying in baseball!!!!

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

My other question from the exact same game would be - why was Pat Dean asked to pitch the 7th? You've suddenly tied the game, and Dean with 80+ pitches, facing Castellanos for the 3rd time is the best option??

We should have gone to Tonkin and May to get through the 7th, like last night.

[Riverbrian]

 

Sure - a fairly minor nitpick in the grand scheme of things... but a lot of these minor nitpicks add up over time.  Just another example of him not putting players in the best position to succeed.  

 

FWIW - Arcia has a career OPS of .617 vs lefties. 

 

My other question from the exact same game would be - why was Pat Dean asked to pitch the 7th? You've suddenly tied the game, and Dean with 80+ pitches, facing Castellanos for the 3rd time is the best option??

 

That's my biggest wonderment of the night. The only answer that I can possibly come up with is this:

 

Who in that bullpen would you have confidence in right now? 

 

I think even the best managers have to hope and pray every once in awhile when they send someone out there. 

[Riverbrian]

 

How about if a manager consistently makes decisions that over time are bad, according to the math? Then can we criticize him? 

 

We always have the right to criticize a manager. That comes with the job.

 

However... the Manager that I think is the best by far... Joe Maddon...  goes against the book frequently and if he was the Twins manager... he would also drive most of us crazy. 

 

By us... Not me... most everybody else on Twins Daily. 

[Kwak]

2 cents:   If the plan is to have "a total system ​makeover ", then it doesn't make much sense to change managers now--he will be replaced by the new Management team anyway;  but if the plan is to retain the FO (for fear of change, lack of control, overspending, whatever) then a new manager will expose whether these guys quit on Molitor and a "new voice" will significantly improve things or  these guys aren't good enough to be competitive at the major league level.  ​  

[alarp33]

 

 

 

#2 -- 2016 hasn't gone well on the field and the Manager must shoulder blame but you also can't pretend 2015 didn't happen. The Twins over achieved under Molitor's guidance so it's not as cut and dried as I need it to be. 

 

 

 

Hasn't gone well may be underselling it a tad... "Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"  

 

If you want to consider 2015 as well, the Twins are 93-107 with Molitor at the helm.  Mind you they fully intended (tho unreasonable to expect this) to compete for the Division title this year.  

 

No one is arguing that Ryan isn't mostly to blame for this mess. That doesn't mean Molitor has done a good job

 

[alarp33]

 

We should have gone to Tonkin and May to get through the 7th, like last night.

 

I know you are just being sarcastic, but I'd still roll the dice with Tonkin or Pressly before letting Pat Freaking Dean throw his 85th-90th pitches

[Mr. Brooks]

This thread just kills me. Everyone wants Molitor fired. Even after the encouraging year they had last year. If you think he is the main problem, step back, take a deep breath and look at the big picture. Where are the problems? Bullpen? Definitely. Outfield? For sure. Lack of a decent catcher? Obviously. Starting rotation? Yep. So, who created this mess. Not Molitor. It was Terry Ryan. Molitor can only work with what he is given and there is no manager in baseball that is going to turn this mess into a contender. For all those who are calling for Molitor's dismissal, what do you think a new manager is going to do differently to turn things around? Sano will still be in right field. Rosario and Arcia will still be the choices for left field (all those calling for Kepler to be called up haven't been monitoring what he's doing/not doing in Rochester). Santana or, god forbid, Mastroianni are your choices for CF until Buxton is ready. A new manager will still have the same flawed bullpen to work with. The new manager will still have to put Nolasco on the mound every five days. Thinking a manager change will fix this if pure fantasy.

Molitor makes at least one bone headed, incompetent move every game.

Now, you are right when you say that no manager would turn this team into a contender. I don't think anyone here suggests Molitor is the only, or even biggest problem.

However, some of us here have seen enough terrible, awful decisions that we don't want him around to screw it up in a few years when we DO have a roster capable of competing.

[jimmer]

 

Molitor makes at least one bone headed, incompetent move every game.
Now, you are right when you say that no manager would turn this team into a contender. I don't think anyone here suggests Molitor is the only, or even biggest problem.
However, some of us here have seen enough terrible, awful decisions that we don't want him around to screw it up in a few years when we DO have a roster capable of competing.

and most of the boneheaded moves that he makes are called out as such before we ever know the outcome of the move itself.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Looking back, the Twins also started 10-26 in 2012, although they won a pair of fairly ugly games in Detroit at that point to start climbing back a bit.  Got up to 10-12 games under .500 a couple times, before fading badly in August in September to finish 66-96.

 

Of course, the last two nights have not gone that way for us in Detroit, so we're 10-28 now...

[Riverbrian]

 

Hasn't gone well may be underselling it a tad... "Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"  

 

If you want to consider 2015 as well, the Twins are 93-107 with Molitor at the helm.  Mind you they fully intended (tho unreasonable to expect this) to compete for the Division title this year.  

 

No one is arguing that Ryan isn't mostly to blame for this mess. That doesn't mean Molitor has done a good job

 

Looking at the scoreboard... it don't look good.

 

It doesn't get that bad without your manager making some bad decisions... On this we agree. 

 

Should he be fired? Still not that cut and dried for me partly because last year is still a consideration in my mind. 

 

To me... the answer depends on the answer to this question that has to come from Terry Ryan:

 

Can Paul Molitor execute the daily management of the roster that I put together better than other available managers for today and tomorrow. 

[Mr. Brooks]

According to Molitor... Santana was having an eye issue. His eye was consistently watering so Paul removed him from the game because he was having trouble seeing and he didn't want to send up to the plate dangerously compromised.

 

My speculation was that Molitor probably wouldn't have pinch hit otherwise.

 

He had a choice between Arcia and Mastro... A Blast would have tied.

 

Under the circumstance... I can't fault Paul for that.

1) where was Polanco?

 

2) against lefties Arcia and Mastroianni are basically the same hitter, and Mastroianni would have to sub into CF either way. So, why burn 2 bench players when you can get the same result with one?

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I know you are just being sarcastic, but I'd still roll the dice with Tonkin or Pressly before letting Pat Freaking Dean throw his 85th-90th pitches

Agreed.  Nothing against Dean, but he had already allowed 8 hits over his 5 innings, including 3 hits and zero strikeouts over his previous two innings, so it's not like he was on some incredible roll that we had to allow him to continue in a tie game in the 7th.