Why so much love for Plouffe?

[kab21]

Great.  There is a total of one MLB team that needs a 3B.  I did something similar to Dave and looked at the contending teams that might need a 3B and the list is pretty short.  The Padres are almost certainly the only one that have extra catchers.  It is possible that the Twins can make a trade but it is a limited market.  Nobody is saying don't call the Padres though.  If they want to pay the going rate for a very good 3B (despite arguments to minimize Plouffe) then I am interested.

 

Did somebody (on page 3) really post rankings that show Plouffe as the 20th best 3Bman?  There are a lot of questionable names on that list.  He isn't in the top 10 but he is right outside of that range.  That isn't merely 'okay' as those that are minimizing him suggest.

[Major League Ready]

 

Note:  I'm not a big fan of Plouffe, but he is not blocking Sano.  Sano is playing every day--just at DH.

 

 

Note:  I'm not a big fan of Plouffe, but he is not blocking Sano.  Sano is playing every day--just at DH.

Which option would be more productive?

Option 1 – Plouffe 3B  /  Sano DH 

 

Option 2 – Sano 3B  /  Vargas 1B  / Arcia DH  /  Plus, use the money you would have paid Plouffe to buy 2 bullpen arms.  Actually, use the money however you like.  The added payroll is also an asset that could be used to be improve the team.

 

Option 2 would seem to be a considerably better offensive team.  I doubt Vargas is a downgrade at 1st defensively.   His minor league numbers are much better than Plouffe.  Mauer & Vargas share 1st base duties until a winner emerges.    We could also use Arcia in LF to start the season with Buxton in AAA. 

 

Option two is a better utilization of assets and we have not even considered the return on Plouffe.  So, yes, Pouffe is not only blocking Plouffe but also blocking other moves and additions that would improve the team.  We need a #5 batter to protect Sano.  Plouffe’s league average bat is not the answer.  Vargas or Arcis is our best bet to provide that threat behind Sano.

[David HK]

 

The Padres would like to think that they will be contenders in 2016, just like they did in 2015.  Perfect fit for Plouffie-  I think he can beat out Solarte and Middlebrooks.

Padres thought they were contenders THIS year-   and so did the Mariners, White Sox, Nats....

[stringer bell]

Plouffe is a good player, but he is what the Twins are already too much of--slow, RH, with power but low OBP. It would hurt to lose his bat from the middle of the order, but a lot of somebodies could and should step up to replace that productivity. Adding a left handed hitter would be nice, while adding a left handed hitter with some wheels and a solid OBP would be better (sounds a lot for the profile of Max Kepler).

[kab21]

 

Which option would be more productive?

Option 1 – Plouffe 3B  /  Sano DH 

 

Option 2 – Sano 3B  /  Vargas 1B  / Arcia DH  /  Plus, use the money you would have paid Plouffe to buy 2 bullpen arms.  Actually, use the money however you like.  The added payroll is also an asset that could be used to be improve the team.

 

Option 2 would seem to be a considerably better offensive team.  I doubt Vargas is a downgrade at 1st defensively.   His minor league numbers are much better than Plouffe.  Mauer & Vargas share 1st base duties until a winner emerges.    We could also use Arcia in LF to start the season with Buxton in AAA. 

 

Option two is a better utilization of assets and we have not even considered the return on Plouffe.  So, yes, Pouffe is not only blocking Plouffe but also blocking other moves and additions that would improve the team.  We need a #5 batter to protect Sano.  Plouffe’s league average bat is not the answer.  Vargas or Arcis is our best bet to provide that threat behind Sano.

The issue is that now you have reduced the depth of the team and introduced another question mark into the lineup.  Vargas should hit MLB pitching as well as Plouffe but he should have done that this year.

 

Of course if Plouffe was traded was Norris or a package of nice prospects then Vargas becomes the DH.  I don't have a problem with that but so far I see more interest in moving Plouffe so Sano can play 3B than interest in what kind of return there is.

 

I am not sure why you complicated matters by introducing Mauer into the equation.  He is playing 1B.  It is time to move beyond this.  If Arcia is going to play then it will be in LF anyway until either Buxton or Kepler claims the 3rd OF spot.

[Winston Smith]

 

Padres 3B, Yangervis Solarte (.270BA/.320SLG/.748OPS/ 28 yrs-old
compared to Trevor Plouffe (.244BA/.435SLG/.742OPS/ 29 yrs-old
Why do they want Plouffe, again?

Solarte played about 1/4 of the games at 2B so they could move him there full time. They also have a LH hitting 1B so an option when a LH is pitching. SD was a really bad hitting team this year and he likely would improve that even being  an average player himself.

However I don't think Plouffe has much value. Nobody is going to pay much for average.

[mazeville]

"Let them compete for the position in spring training."

 

No.  Both of those players are good enough that they should not have to compete for anything. Trevor Plouffe is a solid big league regular who deserves a starting 3B job. Miguel Sano is your future, who had an amazing rookie year. You should honestly trade one of them to shore up an area where you're deficient -- like catcher. 

 

"If Sano moves from DH, then we have a (hole) at DH." No we don't. THAT'S where you have competition. You have Vargas, Arcia and Pinto compete for the DH spot. 

 

Plouffe isn't blocking Sano, per se. The reality is that Mauer is the one blocking some of these other players from getting playing time. But you can't trade Mauer. And the Twins should have traded Mauer a couple of years ago when the Boston Red Sox were willing to take on that contract.

 

You can't trade the young guys because they have potential but won't get anything in return. So you trade Plouffe, who can fetch a return. You insert Sano at third. And that frees up the DH spot for these can't-field guys.

[Rosterman]

I would gowith option 2, opening the season with rcia in the outfield and Buxton in the minors and Mauer at first, of course. I would also have Mauer try a third baseman's glove, just in case you need to shuffle (with Kepler as first baseman in waiting, and Walker as DH/4th outfielder in waiting). 

 

It will be painful if you have to trade Plouffe just because there is no room in the inn and you basically have to take what you can get (becauise no one needs a third baseman yet...wait until spring training happens, he costs too much this year and probably next year, teams know you don't have a roster spot for him and the reality is you would be better off trading Plouffe now for anything that Arcia or Vargas).

[sane]

 

I would gowith option 2, opening the season with rcia in the outfield and Buxton in the minors and Mauer at first, of course. I would also have Mauer try a third baseman's glove, just in case you need to shuffle (with Kepler as first baseman in waiting, and Walker as DH/4th outfielder in waiting). 

 

It will be painful if you have to trade Plouffe just because there is no room in the inn and you basically have to take what you can get (becauise no one needs a third baseman yet...wait until spring training happens, he costs too much this year and probably next year, teams know you don't have a roster spot for him and the reality is you would be better off trading Plouffe now for anything that Arcia or Vargas).

Exhale.

[jokin]

 

Padres 3B, Yangervis Solarte (.270BA/.320SLG/.748OPS/ 28 yrs-old
compared to Trevor Plouffe (.244BA/.435SLG/.742OPS/ 29 yrs-old
Why do they want Plouffe, again?

 

That's easy:

 

1) Solarte has a decent bat but he doesn't have Plouffe's power potential needed at the position.

2) Solarte's glove at 3rd makes Plouffe almost look like a gold glover (past 2 seasons-  Plouffe 1.6 dWAR  Solarte -0.5 dWAR).

3) Solarte is an accidental MLB/ 7-year minor league/AAAA journeyman originally signed internationally at age 20- meaning he's possibly 1-2 years older, Plouffe was a 1st round pick out of HS.

4)  If there's any doubt about Solarte's lack of athletic pedigree- his nickname is "Slow-larte"

[jokin]

 

"Let them compete for the position in spring training."

 

No. That's ridiculous. Both of those players are good enough that they should not have to compete for anything. Trevor Plouffe is a solid big league regular who deserves a starting 3B job. Miguel Sano is your future, who had an amazing rookie year.

 

You should honestly trade one of them to shore up an area where you're deficient -- like catcher. 

 

 

 

The rest of your post made good points, but I hope your last sentence above is tongue in cheek, because if you're serious about the possibility of trading Sano, then this is the quote that is ridiculous. If what you meant to say was that Plouffe has to go, then yes, BUT only ONE of them has to go, not one or the other.  

 

Sano's rookie season transcends "amazing"... the rookie season Sano had was, by many measures, one of the best rookie seasons in the history of baseball.

 

Of all of the great rookies in the 2015 class, Sano and Correa have an incredible chance to be the two players who define the next generation in baseball- no one trades that type of potential.

 

The problem with trying to trade Plouffe this winter is diminished need around the league and with 29 GMs knowing that you're trying to dump him, the potential for a decent return is also diminished.

[sftwinsfan]

Wow, I can't believe some people are actually trying to make the argument that Plouffe is too expensive and the Twins will be looking to dump so he doesn't have much value.  What do some of you actually think the going rate in free agency is for a 3B that plays solid defense and can hit 20+ HR?  A couple years of team control at a reasonable (for MLB purposes) salary is exactly what another team would find value in.  

 

If you can package him with some prospects and it helps you get a solid catcher in return then you take that.  If you can't get a good return, then you don't.  You also can't just assume you can replace Plouffe's bat in the lineup with Vargas or Arcia.  Neither showed any ability to even be in a big-league lineup last season let alone be productive.  

[Major League Ready]

 

I am not sure why you complicated matters by introducing Mauer into the equation.  He is playing 1B.  It is time to move beyond this.  If Arcia is going to play then it will be in LF anyway until either Buxton or Kepler claims the 3rd OF spot.

Mauer is part of the equation.  These are not completely independent parts, especially given the suggestions of sharing 1st, #B and DH among Plouffe/Sano?Mauer & others.  There are only so many roster spots.  Plouffe, Sano, Mauer, Vargas, Pinto, and Arcia are all candidates for DH / 3B / and/or 1B.  Mauer is not going anywhere so no all of those guys are competing for playing time between 1B & DH.  Plouffe and Mauer are roughly equivalent offensively and I still have a hard time counting Mauer out.  I just would not be surprised to see a considerable improvement.  I do think they should approach Joe and tell him this is his last year on scholarship.  He is slightly above replacement level at his position.  Maybe its time to hit the Gym harder and show up in the best shape of his life like Yadier Molina did this past season.

 

Moving Plouffe helps find a way to give Arcia one last shot.  He has done little to inspire confidence but I sure hate to give up on his potential, especially when a LH power hitter behind Sano would such a big plus.  Moving Plouffe also gives Vargas a shot.  I was really impressed with how much he improved his approach and his minor league numbers are considerably better than Plouffe.

 

Having depth is good but you can only play one person per position at a time.  This type of redundancy is not good roster construction and somehow the fact that we will in theory will get equal value back seems to be a small consideration to those who argue to keep him.  It might not be a catcher but it could be pieces that are part of a trade for a catcher. 

[Monkeypaws]

I thought TR sucked at trades, or so I've often read on this forum.

 

Why lose Plouffe if all we get is a middling relief pitcher? Am I right?

 

 

[nytwinsfan]

I thought TR sucked at trades, or so I've often read on this forum.

 

Why lose Plouffe if all we get is a middling relief pitcher? Am I right?

 

 

No, no you are not.

[Major League Ready]

 

I thought TR sucked at trades, or so I've often read on this forum.

 

Why lose Plouffe if all we get is a middling relief pitcher? Am I right?

 

 

I missed it if anyone suggested Plouffe be traded for a "middling relief pitcher" but I doubt anyone here is an advocate of trading him without a fair return.  Of course, fair is a relative term and many fans have a rather distorted view of fair as they tend to overvalue their own players.

[Blackjack]

Plouffe, Sano, Mauer -- three players for three positions - third, DH, and first.  Start Sano at third and first half the time, with either Plouffe or Mauer at DH.   It lets you know whether Sano CAN play in the field and gives you the luxury of waiting for a good offer for Plouffe, either at the trade deadline or after the 2016 season. 

 

Vargas and Arcia will have to hit their way onto the roster, with the nod going to Arcia since he is out of options.  Having Vargas at AAA providing depth is ok, and if he hits a ton, they'll find a spot for him on the bench. Arcia is the guy that other GM's will be waiting to snap up cheap when he gets released in May -- but its up to him. If he hits, he stays, if he gets released he'll get signed by somebody else -- and sent to AAA again. 

[Vanimal46]

Another potential landing spot for Plouffe could be the Rangers. Adrian Beltre's a pending FA, and Joey Gallo rotated between 3B and LF... We seem to be locked into getting a C as the return for Plouffe, which probably wouldn't happen from TX, but there's others we could get back instead of a C.

[DaveW]

 

Another potential landing spot for Plouffe could be the Rangers. Adrian Beltre's a pending FA, and Joey Gallo rotated between 3B and LF... We seem to be locked into getting a C as the return for Plouffe, which probably wouldn't happen from TX, but there's others we could get back instead of a C.

If Beltre leaves (good chance he stays) then Gallo will be the every day 3B sooner rather than later, they likely wouldn't mind Plouffe as a plan B or to start 2016, but if he is just a stop gap they won't give up much.

I would love to find a way to buy low on Profar though.

[bird]

 

Plouffe was 2nd on the team in WAR.  My question would be why we wonder why so many fans think Plouffe is such a problem for us and/or what is wrong with saying he's a good player and we need good players?

 

The problem isn't Plouffe. He's the opportunity precisely BECAUSE he's a good player. The problems are catcher and a front line starter at the top of the list in my view.

[Mike Sixel]

Ellipses score extra points...

I use a lot of those.....

[Kwak]

I think that there are more (good) potential trading partners for Plouffe than cited earlier.  The key is thinking outside the box.  Many say "Catcher" are ignoring other alternative that may land a better return.  The Twins need improvement at several positions--so horizons should be expanded beyond Catcher.  A true top-of-the-rotation pitcher is needed, consider Plouffe and a prospect or two (or one of the young OFers).  Escobar is not the final answer at SS, even if he is Ryan's favorite,  he's mediocre and won't improve.  The Twins need premier talent to be a serious year-round competitor--there's no longer need for C+ players, because they have plenty of those guys.  There is need for a second HR hitter (and one with .270 average who take "his" walks).  Irelevant what position he plays--they can "make room" for him.  The Twins need to trade for "skill-sets" (what a guy will do) rather than what position he plays.

[Mike Sixel]

Plouffe is a good player, but he is what the Twins are already too much of--slow, RH, with power but low OBP. It would hurt to lose his bat from the middle of the order, but a lot of somebodies could and should step up to replace that productivity. Adding a left handed hitter would be nice, while adding a left handed hitter with some wheels and a solid OBP would be better (sounds a lot for the profile of Max Kepler).

There was an interesting study on FG this year.....when the Mariners added another low OBP, high HR, guy, many said "we need more OBP". Turns out, if you have a low OBP team, adding OBP is less valuable than adding power. Since the other guys aren't likely to drive a guy in with a single (since they don't hit enough of them), low OBP teams actually get more run production added from another low OBP/high* power guy. It was not what anyone expected the study to show.

 

*I got parens, ellipses, and / in there, not bad, not bad at all**

 

**and commas, lots of commas.

[USAFChief]

There was an interesting study on FG this year.....when the Mariners added another low OBP, high HR, guy, many said "we need more OBP". Turns out, if you have a low OBP team, adding OBP is less valuable than adding power. Since the other guys aren't likely to drive a guy in with a single (since they don't hit enough of them), low OBP teams actually get more run production added from another low OBP/high* power guy. It was not what anyone expected the study to show.*I got parens, ellipses, and / in there, not bad, not bad at all****and commas, lots of commas.

But -1 for poor use of asterisks.

[Blackjack]

 

I use a lot of those.....

More importantly, why are they called 'ellipsis' and not 'dots'?? 

[Major League Ready]

Plouffe, Sano, Mauer -- three players for three positions - third, DH, and first. Start Sano at third and first half the time, with either Plouffe or Mauer at DH. It lets you know whether Sano CAN play in the field and gives you the luxury of waiting for a good offer for Plouffe, either at the trade deadline or after the 2016 season.

 

Vargas and Arcia will have to hit their way onto the roster, with the nod going to Arcia since he is out of options. Having Vargas at AAA providing depth is ok, and if he hits a ton, they'll find a spot for him on the bench. Arcia is the guy that other GM's will be waiting to snap up cheap when he gets released in May -- but its up to him. If he hits, he stays, if he gets released he'll get signed by somebody else -- and sent to AAA again.

This is a very reasonable option. Takes away some risk. I would probably still deal Plouffe if the return is attractive. I was impressed with Vargas ABs when he came back. His minor league numbers are much better than Plouffe. Plus he is a switch hitting power hitter to bat behind Sano. Sure, there is some risk Vargas does not pan out but the payoff would be big and the downside is not exactly severe. What are the Odds that one of Vargas / Pinto or Arcia wont be a league average bat like Plouffe? Vargas and Arcia have the potential to produce a 100 points or higher OPS. Do we want to be a fringe contender or great?

[Mike Sixel]

I'd probably roll the dice on Arcia at DH, with Sano at 3B. There is risk there, but there are times to take risks, I think this is one of those times.

 

Plouffe, for many, is easy to love. He struggled, worked hard, made himself a valuable player. People eat that up.

[Major League Ready]

 

I'd probably roll the dice on Arcia at DH, with Sano at 3B. There is risk there, but there are times to take risks, I think this is one of those times.

Plouffe, for many, is easy to love. He struggled, worked hard, made himself a valuable player. People eat that up.

Mike,

 

It seems likely that Buxton starts the season in AAA.  I know Arcia's performance in AAA did not inspire confidence but what about giving him a shot for the first 6-8 weeks of the season in the OF instead of bringing back Hunter?  Platoon him with Robinson or even Danny Santana.  If he stinks the place up you call-up Buxton and/or Kepler.  I just hate to let Arcia go for nothing.

[dxpavelka]

I don't like Plouffe any more or less than the next guy.  My personal reason for not wanting to see a guy who is "decidedly average" leave is a lack of guys who are "decidedly ABOVE average."  I've said it before and I'll continue to say it:  Put Sano at 3B and give Plouffe 5 starts a week rotationg between the 2 corner infield & outfield spots & DH.  Or make him a catcher.

[Willihammer]

 

If Sano moves from DH then we have a whole at DH. While we have Arcia and Vargas, I think that is why the Twins want Hunter back. To DH 110 -115 games and play in RF 30-35.

Agree on the first part. Yes there is a surplus of corner/DH prospects ATM but remember the first half when rotating different guys through DH produced a 103 wRC+ which was 11th in the AL. Breaking camps with Sano at DH again ensures 150 wRC+ production which would be tops or near tops in the AL.