Why is Kevin Correia so reviled?

[Craig Arko]

Let's all just pray he's dealt and not extended.

 

I don't pray but I will note that Ryan could have any GM in baseball stop by his office this week.

[drivlikejehu]

A whole lot better? Unlikely. Last season, Correia pitched close to 200 innings with an ERA just a hair under league average.

 

Most teams - even contenders - don't have that as a fifth starter, if only for consistency.

 

Correia was good for a win and a half over replacement level last season. That's nothing to scoff at.

 

Nor is 1.3 WAR something to brag about, especially when that represents a surprising level of success.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Nor is 1.3 WAR something to brag about, especially when that represents a surprising level of success.

 

Didn't claim it was.

[LaBombo]

Last year, Correia suffered from the perception that the Twins were still operating in a pre-James manner that results in their being totally shocked when a pitcher who can't miss bats implodes. We know now that's not the case, but Correia was signed under that cloud.

 

This year, Correia suffers from the anxiousness to see Meyer and May and the impression that he's the least likely starter to have a future with the Twins.

[Brandon]

Most of us were upset about the 2nd season in the contract. We knew the Twins were going to be bad last year and thought he was an ok band aid. but the second season felt like the Twins were giving up on this season before last season began. Most of us felt justified when Corriea got off to a bad start this year. He is synonymous with Swarzak IMO. He has out produced his expectations. Though his won-loss record does not reflect it.

 

Also at the time Corriea was signed there were several other pitchers signing 2/15 million contracts that appeared to be much better than Corriea though not great either, Blanton, McCarthy, Kazmir was available, Feldman, Baker, Carlos Villanueza, and Edwin Jackson to name a few. Little did we know just how bad they would be but we thought they were all better than Corriea.

[Monkeypaws]

If only Correia could re-invent himself as an underdog.

 

I think the bang for the buck with him has been spot on.

[rikker49]

What pitcher would want to come to a team that lost nearly 200 gms in 2 yrs? It would be a mid to low quality pitcher. Any halfway decent pitcher would take a little less to go to a winning team. As a Twin fan I realized that the FO can throw money at a FA pitcher, but that doesn't mean they want to come here. What you will get is mid-to-low level pitchers like KC, or pitchers coming off injuries like Pelf. You take chances on other pitchers and hope to get lucky like Hughes, or you overpay for mid-level pitchers like Nolasco. Until this team becomes competitive again, FA pitchers willing to come here will be the likes of KC. For someone who makes 5mil a year, I am happy with the production of KC. The only problem I see is that he was put into a 2-3 starter role instead of the 4-5 starter he actually is.

[nicksaviking]

When I heard people criticize Nick Punto back in the day, I always said that was on the management. He shouldn't have been a starter, particularly at 3B, but had the team kept him as a super utility player, he likely would have been one of the most beloved Twins despite his offensive shortcomings; see Al Newman and Denny Hocking.

 

Same thing happened with Correia. He was out of position as the top free agent arm in 2013. Had it been one year later and the Twins had signed him (instead of Pelfrey) as the third arm behind Nolasco and Hughes, a high approval rating would probably be pretty universal.

[Mike Sixel]

What pitcher would want to come to a team that lost nearly 200 gms in 2 yrs? It would be a mid to low quality pitcher. Any halfway decent pitcher would take a little less to go to a winning team. As a Twin fan I realized that the FO can throw money at a FA pitcher, but that doesn't mean they want to come here. What you will get is mid-to-low level pitchers like KC, or pitchers coming off injuries like Pelf. You take chances on other pitchers and hope to get lucky like Hughes, or you overpay for mid-level pitchers like Nolasco. Until this team becomes competitive again, FA pitchers willing to come here will be the likes of KC. For someone who makes 5mil a year, I am happy with the production of KC. The only problem I see is that he was put into a 2-3 starter role instead of the 4-5 starter he actually is.

 

There is no evidence your contention is true. Indeed, lots of good players in every sport go where the money is. We don't, for 1 minute, know what people are thinking. We do know what they do, and we know what they say. According to the interwebs analyst types, players go for the money.

 

Signing KC was not "taking chances" at all. It was buying a mediocre pitcher, for a fair price, to plug into the rotation. It wan't about fixing the team or making them competitive. You don't sign a number 5 pitcher to make your lead starting pitcher, and then say you are making your team competitive, not with a straight face. yet, that is what the Twins did. They signed two number 5 pitchers, and tried to tell us they were serious about contending.

 

KC isn't reviled here, so much as the team. At least that's how I read the comments. It is about really trying to fix the team.

[Kwak]

There is no evidence your contention is true. Indeed, lots of good players in every sport go where the money is. We don't, for 1 minute, know what people are thinking. We do know what they do, and we know what they say. According to the interwebs analyst types, players go for the money.

 

Signing KC was not "taking chances" at all. It was buying a mediocre pitcher, for a fair price, to plug into the rotation. It wan't about fixing the team or making them competitive. You don't sign a number 5 pitcher to make your lead starting pitcher, and then say you are making your team competitive, not with a straight face. yet, that is what the Twins did. They signed two number 5 pitchers, and tried to tell us they were serious about contending.

 

KC isn't reviled here, so much as the team [is reviled].

 

I concur. When the Twins were winning in the 2000's, the active roster was augmented by "a bat or an arm"--but not a particularily useful one. The FO would display an attitude that could be characterized as "there you go, I 'fixed' your problem". KC is a similar type player, not particularily good but nor is he "bad", but definately not "a team-changing, 'problem-solved' type of player". KC is a "hole-plugger", and many fans believe that "more" should have been done especially in light of the past frustrations and the huge increase in revenues that ultimately come from the public in one form or another. The "bile", to spin a word, is a result of all of those frustrations and much of them got focused on KC.

[nicksaviking]

And to be fair, the front office did seem to learn from their history of inactivity this past offseason. They still might be underfunded, and they still might not be very good and they still might need to change personell, but there certainly seemed to be a concerted effort to get what was percieved to be better pitching talent, and get it early. The agressiveness was a welcomed change even if the results are similar and I'm happy to see they are willing to adapt from what wasn't working.

[jharaldson]

What pitcher would want to come to a team that lost nearly 200 gms in 2 yrs?

 

There are ways around this. Last year I was an advocate for trading for Dan Haren. The Angels bought out his $15.5 million contract for $3.5 million. I have to think we could have traded for him for virtually nothing and gotten $2-2.5 million back. If you believe in fWAR Haren was the 7th best pitcher of the last decade. Trading for a guy like that and paying $13 million that year on a contract sells a little hope and tells me you re trying.. Signing a guy who had been dropped from the rotation on one of the worst teams in the league and backloading his contract (2013 = $4.5 million, 2014 = $5.5 million) is selling the fact you are cheap and don't care.

 

Note: I know Haren and Correia had nearly equal fWAR last year, from a hope standpoint I would say that was as good as Correia could have been and in the bottom 1/3 of outcomes that Haren could have had.

[rikker49]

No team-changing pitchers sign with last place teams. FA #1 starters are hard to come by. Jack Morris was a 1 ... and he was coming off a bad year. Hopefully Minnesota becomes competitive soon and will be an attractive spot for a FA. Until then, they will keep signing "hole-pluggers"

[Nick Nelson]

Correia has basically pitched up to the fullest of his potential... and posted a 94 ERA+ in 1.5 seasons. In an offseason where the Twins desperately needed impact pitching help, their biggest signing was a veteran with No. 5 upside. I think that's why the signing was so reviled; I have no problem with the guy as a person and would hope most feel the same.

[drjim]

I concur. When the Twins were winning in the 2000's, the active roster was augmented by "a bat or an arm"--but not a particularily useful one. The FO would display an attitude that could be characterized as "there you go, I 'fixed' your problem". KC is a similar type player, not particularily good but nor is he "bad", but definately not "a team-changing, 'problem-solved' type of player". KC is a "hole-plugger", and many fans believe that "more" should have been done especially in light of the past frustrations and the huge increase in revenues that ultimately come from the public in one form or another. The "bile", to spin a word, is a result of all of those frustrations and much of them got focused on KC.

 

Fans, by their nature, have irrational expectations of what a front office can do.

[drjim]

And to be fair, the front office did seem to learn from their history of inactivity this past offseason. They still might be underfunded, and they still might not be very good and they still might need to change personell, but there certainly seemed to be a concerted effort to get what was percieved to be better pitching talent, and get it early. The agressiveness was a welcomed change even if the results are similar and I'm happy to see they are willing to adapt from what wasn't working.

 

A more likely explanation is that the past offseason had actual pitching options worth signing in free agency.

[nicksaviking]

No team-changing pitchers sign with last place teams. FA #1 starters are hard to come by. Jack Morris was a 1 ... and he was coming off a bad year. Hopefully Minnesota becomes competitive soon and will be an attractive spot for a FA. Until then, they will keep signing "hole-pluggers"

 

Morris was still the top paid arm on the market that year and the Twins made him a top 5 paid pitcher in the league. He got paid more than Bob Welch, who the previous season just won 27 games, back when Wins were the most revered stat for pitchers. Tom Browning, Bud Black, Mike Boddicker, Danny Darwin, Charlie Liebrandt, Mike Witt, Zane Smith, Teddy Higuera, Dave Righetti, Goose Gossage, Charlie Hough, Floyd Bannister, Bill Kruger, John Candelaria and Fernando Valenzuela made up the rest of a pretty impressive free agent pitching crop in terms of performance and name recognition.

 

Of course the fact that the Twins were willing to get the top free agent arm speaks volumes in itself.

[drjim]

Morris was still the top paid arm on the market that year and the Twins made him a top 5 paid pitcher in the league. He got paid more than Bob Welch, who the previous season just won 27 games, back when Wins were the most revered stat for pitchers. Tom Browning, Bud Black, Mike Boddicker, Danny Darwin, Charlie Liebrandt, Mike Witt, Zane Smith, Teddy Higuera, Dave Righetti, Goose Gossage, Charlie Hough, Floyd Bannister, Bill Kruger, John Candelaria and Fernando Valenzuela made up the rest of a pretty impressive free agent pitching crop in terms of performance and name recognition.

 

Of course the fact that the Twins were willing to get the top free agent arm speaks volumes in itself.

 

Why do people keep bringing up a free agent signing from 1991 like it has any bearing on what happens in today's game (and free agency)?

[Boom Boom]

I think the fan base was jaded by the Livan Hernandez, Sidney Ponson, and Ramon Ortiz signings and KC reminded them of those guys who were brought in as back-of-the-rotation "innings-eaters."

 

KC has stayed healthy and pitched OK so the criticism seems to have died down.

[old nurse]

Paplebon's quote on playing on a losing team

“Of course, man, What kind of question is that?...Some guys want to stay on a losing team? That’s mind-boggling to me,”

Losing teams will have a more difficult time attracting players. While the 1990 Twins may have been a losing team there was a core group of very good players. You can not say that about the 2011-2013 Twins. It is not a similar situation to compare to. Morris also essentially signed a one year contract with some protection for himself. Staring on a winning team netted him a 10 million contract. What top free agent over the last few years has used a bottom of the league team to springboard themselves to a better contract? The better free agents that the current Twins can attract are ones with big question marks attached. Willingham is a great hitting outfielder if healthy. 1/3 years healthy and he does not recover quickly. Hughes was a risk.

[Otto von Ballpark]

What pitcher would want to come to a team that lost nearly 200 gms in 2 yrs? It would be a mid to low quality pitcher. Any halfway decent pitcher would take a little less to go to a winning team. As a Twin fan I realized that the FO can throw money at a FA pitcher, but that doesn't mean they want to come here. What you will get is mid-to-low level pitchers like KC, or pitchers coming off injuries like Pelf. You take chances on other pitchers and hope to get lucky like Hughes, or you overpay for mid-level pitchers like Nolasco. Until this team becomes competitive again, FA pitchers willing to come here will be the likes of KC. For someone who makes 5mil a year, I am happy with the production of KC. The only problem I see is that he was put into a 2-3 starter role instead of the 4-5 starter he actually is.

 

Seems ironic that, in a post saying the only FA pitchers willing to come here are the likes of KC, you named 3 pitchers with higher upside who also came here (and for more money than KC).

[nicksaviking]

Why do people keep bringing up a free agent signing from 1991 like it has any bearing on what happens in today's game (and free agency)?

 

I didn't bring it up.

 

Front office defenders allowed to discuss 1991 while front office nuetral commenters are not?

[drjim]

I didn't bring it up.

 

Front office defenders allowed to discuss 1991 while front office nuetral commenters are not?

 

I didn't mean it for you specifically (or even primarily) - probably shouldn't have quoted you.

 

People can talk about whatever they want. I would just say using free agency signings in 1991 like it has any bearing on free agent signings in 2014 probably hurts your credibility.

[Mike Frasier Law]

There are two starting pitchers in baseball that have struck out fewer than 5 per 9 innings. Gibson is at 4.72. Correia is at 4.12. And Gibson has a top 10 ground ball rate to help make up for the lack of strikeouts.

 

So I think the vitriol comes from the history of the signing, but it also comes from the fact that he (a) isn't very entertaining, ( isn't very good, and © his good streaks don't look remotely sustainable.

[tobi0040]

Spot on Shane, I don't dislike the guy, it's that the Twins have pitchers in the minors that I would rather see. Similar for Nolasco, except he hasn't pitched up to his career averages. Were Nolasco pitch to his career averages, I'm fine with him as the number 4 type starter.

 

I agree with this point (that we have guys like M and M we would rather see). A also agree that we signed him at the time we needed something better. That is not his fault. If the Twins want to pay me $5M a year to pitch I will. I am primarily a one pitch guy. The 75 mph heater, assuming I get a running start.

[Otto von Ballpark]

On the general subject of Correia, he seems like an OK dude, but I guess a couple things colored my perception of him before he even became a Twin:

 

1) He was an undeserved all-star in 2011. He lucked into a 11-7 record with ~93 ERA+ for the Pirates at the 2011 break. And he wasn't even one of those lovable token selections like Ron Coomer, as the Pirates also had McCutchen and Hanrahan on the team. He was just a poor (and in hindsight unnecessary) replacement for Cole Hamels, who started the prior Sunday and was thus ineligible to appear in the all-star game. (Non-all-star teammate AJ Burnett was 10-2 with a ~100 ERA+ at the break, with a much better career track record.)

 

Correia didn't pitch in the game either, and finished the year 12-11 with a 78 ERA+, close to his career starting marks in both categories.

 

2) When demoted to the bullpen for the newly-acquired Wandy Rodriguez in July 2012, as the Pirates were pushing for their first winning record if not playoff appearance in ages, he publicly demanded a trade so he could go elsewhere to start. Didn't come off as a very "team" player on what was a very easy team to root for. Also seemed woefully out of touch with his own abilities, even by pro athlete standards: he was finishing a 2-year, $8 mil contract (not the kind of contract that suggests a pennant race starter), and he had a 89 ERA+ at the time of demotion, with a ~81 career ERA+ as a starting pitcher. He was perhaps fortunate to be #6 on the Pirates SP depth chart at the time!

 

I guess it is quite possible the Pirates "guaranteed" him a starting spot when he signed, as it seems he left his hometown Padres after a demotion to the bullpen 2 years earlier, presumably seeking a chance to start Still didn't seem a great way to handle it. And all told, he only missed 3 turns in the rotation, getting 9 more opportunities to start during the Pirates epic collapse of August-September that year. (I also suspect the Twins gave him a similar guarantee about starting.) Seemed like Correia was trying to have his cake and eat it too: he obviously jumped at getting a guaranteed two-year deal, but should have really understood the team composition in his 2nd year was likely to change his role (hence why most players of his ability are limited to one-year contracts).

 

Those two events were really my only exposure to KC before he signed with the Twins, and while they don't muster up anything near "revulsion", they did give me a mild negative vibe. Of course, all of my concern about him the past two seasons involves the team's moves (or non-moves) around him.

[h2oface]

This year, Correia suffers from the anxiousness to see Meyer and May and the impression that he's the least likely starter to have a future with the Twins.

 

I would sure hope I am not alone in believing that Pelfrey should be the least likely to have a future with the Twins. Pelfrey, Correia, and Nolasco don't miss bats, and never did. The ineptitude of a GM that would sign Pelfrey to a handsome (for Pelfrey) contract after 2013 means that he will be around for more nothingness and blocking of a young pitcher for yet another year, and Nolasco supposedly now has an excuse and is regardless, around for another mind tingling 3. Correia should be dealt now before he fades (as his career stats show he does season after season in the second half) and those balls coming off those bats he still doesn't miss can land in a new teams outfield.

[LaBombo]

I would sure hope I am not alone in believing that Pelfrey should be the least likely to have a future with the Twins. Pelfrey, Correia, and Nolasco don't miss bats, and never did. The ineptitude of a GM that would sign Pelfrey to a handsome (for Pelfrey) contract after 2013 means that he will be around for more nothingness and blocking of a young pitcher for yet another year, and Nolasco supposedly now has an excuse and is regardless, around for another mind tingling 3. Correia should be dealt now before he fades (as his career stats show he does season after season in the second half) and those balls coming off those bats he still doesn't miss can land in a new teams outfield.

 

My post was meant to apply to the Twins currently in the rotation, but yes, in a very marginal and academic way, Pelfrey seems more likely to me to be back than Correia because he is A), unfortunately and inadvisedly under contract for next season, and , unlike Correia, has expressed no reluctance to pitch from the bullpen.

 

Don't want either pitcher back, but letting Pelfrey try to earn a spot in the pen, especially in the minors, seems a lot less unpalatable than trying to milk another year or more *shudder* in the rotation from Correia.

[rikker49]

Seems ironic that, in a post saying the only FA pitchers willing to come here are the likes of KC, you named 3 pitchers with higher upside who also came here (and for more money than KC).

I was listing 4 types of pitchers that would come to a losing team. KC is one example. My point was that high quality pitchers don't sign with losing teams.

[Kwak]

On the general subject of Correia, he seems like an OK dude, but I guess a couple things colored my perception of him before he even became a Twin:

 

1) He was an undeserved all-star in 2011. He lucked into a 11-7 record with ~93 ERA+ for the Pirates at the 2011 break. And he wasn't even one of those lovable token selections like Ron Coomer, as the Pirates also had McCutchen and Hanrahan on the team. He was just a poor (and in hindsight unnecessary) replacement for Cole Hamels, who started the prior Sunday and was thus ineligible to appear in the all-star game. (Non-all-star teammate AJ Burnett was 10-2 with a ~100 ERA+ at the break, with a much better career track record.)

 

Correia didn't pitch in the game either, and finished the year 12-11 with a 78 ERA+, close to his career starting marks in both categories.

 

2) When demoted to the bullpen for the newly-acquired Wandy Rodriguez in July 2012, as the Pirates were pushing for their first winning record if not playoff appearance in ages, he publicly demanded a trade so he could go elsewhere to start. Didn't come off as a very "team" player on what was a very easy team to root for. Also seemed woefully out of touch with his own abilities, even by pro athlete standards: he was finishing a 2-year, $8 mil contract (not the kind of contract that suggests a pennant race starter), and he had a 89 ERA+ at the time of demotion, with a ~81 career ERA+ as a starting pitcher. He was perhaps fortunate to be #6 on the Pirates SP depth chart at the time!

 

I guess it is quite possible the Pirates "guaranteed" him a starting spot when he signed, as it seems he left his hometown Padres after a demotion to the bullpen 2 years earlier, presumably seeking a chance to start Still didn't seem a great way to handle it. And all told, he only missed 3 turns in the rotation, getting 9 more opportunities to start during the Pirates epic collapse of August-September that year. (I also suspect the Twins gave him a similar guarantee about starting.) Seemed like Correia was trying to have his cake and eat it too: he obviously jumped at getting a guaranteed two-year deal, but should have really understood the team composition in his 2nd year was likely to change his role (hence why most players of his ability are limited to one-year contracts).

 

Those two events were really my only exposure to KC before he signed with the Twins, and while they don't muster up anything near "revulsion", they did give me a mild negative vibe. Of course, all of my concern about him the past two seasons involves the team's moves (or non-moves) around him.

 

Well we sure can't blame KC for "demanding a trade, so he could start...". There's no way the Twins (or anybody else) would have paid him $5MM/yr to be a relief pitcher. All he did was "look out for #1"--sort of like what Kevin Slowey did.... Begin rock throwing.