I'm done with Plouffe!!!

[Rosterman]

Plouffe is an enigma. Can you handle a 20-homer guy who hits .230 somewhere in the lineup? Perhaps, as long as he is the only such guy (goodbye Doumit and Willingham). In this case, I would rather have Doumit sitting on the bench or playing occasionally in the field. Unless if Plouffe could raise the average and take over in rightfield ala Cuddyer, but he would be blocking Buxton, Hicks, Williams, Morales, Kepler or any other guy there, I would use him strictly as a bench player, like the Denny Hocking of mold. But not sure if, at his price, he would function in that capacity at all for the Twins.

 

I would start 2014 with him and if he goes on a tear, dangle him immediately. Or hopefully he shines in the last month and can be trade bait. He is not a aprt of my 2015 team except as a bench player, and those are replacement-type guys who are on par with the current Plouffe or much better.

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

I'm not giving up on Plouffe. He's got the ability to be a good player. Why give up when when he can play nearly anywhere where we're weakest? After giving up on Carlos Gomez, David Ortiz, and JJ Hardy I'm not ready to move on from Plouffe when the talent is there. Give him one more year. He's only had 1,200ABs.

[Monkeypaws]

My winter nightmare: Plouffe and Parmelee open the 2014 season as our corner infielders...

 

Move over M M boys, we got the P P boys now!

[Badsmerf]

His splits before and after the all-star break are incredible.

 

Pre- AS Break: .263/.323/.445 with 10 HRs in 238 AB's

Post AS Break: .174/.238/.280 with 2 HRs in 132 AB's

 

Pretty incredible how bad he's been. I could live with the first half Plouffe any day. An almost .800 OPS while playing average defense is pretty valuable at 3b. I don't know what has changed, but I sure hope he can have a good September... or he wont be around very long.

[Halsey Hall]

I'm not giving up on Plouffe. He's got the ability to be a good player. Why give up when when he can play nearly anywhere where we're weakest? After giving up on Carlos Gomez, David Ortiz, and JJ Hardy I'm not ready to move on from Plouffe when the talent is there. Give him one more year. He's only had 1,200ABs.

 

He's playing where we are the weakest right now for crying out loud. Any other position would just weaken it. He shouldn't even be mentioned with the 3 players you list, other than carrying their bags.

[Marta Shearing]

He didnt know what to do when he saw AJ blocking the plate, and he wanted nothing to do with contact or getting his uniform dirty. Laziest play I've ever seen. You'd think a player just barely holding on to a major league job would play with a little more urgency.

[jokin]

He didnt know what to do when he saw AJ blocking the plate, and he wanted nothing to do with contact or getting his uniform dirty. Laziest play I've ever seen. You'd think a player just barely holding on to a major league job would play with a little more urgency.

 

Being that 2014 will be his first arb-eligible season, you'd think his agent would convey to Plouffe a lot more urgency.....or maybe he should hire Danny Valencia's agent, Danny also begins arb-eligibility this year, his slash line for the Orioles is a quite different story from Plouffe's: .284/.323/.591/.913.

[jokin]

Romero could start next season in the majors while Sano starts in AAA. He deserves an opportunity. Plouffe hasn't hit for power in a while. His average and on base skills are terrible. I am ready for a change too. Where did you go Valencia.....just kiddin.

 

See post above. With all his back and forth promotions this year, he's learned how to drive blindfolded on all the shortcuts on getting from Norfolk to Baltimore

[jay]

What's frustrating to me is to see a team like Tampa continually make good, smart business and baseball moves that aren't any big secret while the Twins seem lost in a fog and there is difficulty finding rhyme or reason to some of theirs. Not all of Tampa Bay's moves work out, but very rarely are they head scratchers when made and their logical reasons for doing so are readily apparent.

 

Help me out with a few examples on both ends, please?

[Thegrin]

One month of excellent power hitting in 2012 has kept me hoping. I have watched each Plouffe at bat with anticipation that he would break out of this slump and hit like his 2012 streak. Alas and alack, it never came to pass. About a week ago I gave up on Plouffe. No more hope. No more watching his at bats. It looks like Plouffe will be forever lost to me.

[Riverbrian]

He didnt know what to do when he saw AJ blocking the plate, and he wanted nothing to do with contact or getting his uniform dirty. Laziest play I've ever seen. You'd think a player just barely holding on to a major league job would play with a little more urgency.

 

That's why I'm done with him.

 

I think he has the potential to be a real nice hitter if he can improve his discipline to a closer to consistent level.

 

But... I'm tired of this half butt effort. AJ is in front of the plate... SLIDE... PLOW HIM... PLAY BALL!!!

 

It doesn't matter what level of baseball you play at... If you have played over 100 competitive games at any level. You should know a ground ball up the middle with two outs is going to draw a throw home. The Sliding instinct should be in your head as you round 3rd base.

 

It doesn't matter if Mastro was giving a weird hand signal to him. OK... Blame Mastro for that but can we assume that there was also some verbal communication also taking place... I've never seen an on deck hitter provide instruction to the runner like he was a mime. We can also assume that the weird hand signal was not to stand up.

 

Also... AJ is setting up for a play at the plate. If you have played competitive baseball you know that the Catcher is setting up for a tag and your pure developed baseball instinct should be to slide when the catcher sets up. You Slide or You PLOW HIM. That's how you play baseball... If you don't the fans who pay money to watch this crap are getting ripped off because the ball player isn't giving you full effort for the full price of a ticket.

 

If AJ is setting up to fake a tag against the Twins... That's takes prick to a new level and he should be plowed for that alone.

 

Trevor Plouffe has not come up with one ball that he shouldn't have all year on defense. Isn't it odd that he never leaves his feet. I find it very odd... especially at 3B... Can anyone recall Plouffe leaving his feet once in 2013. I can't and I have watched probably 90 percent off all the games.

 

I'm tired of watching Nolan Arenando, Brett Lawrie, Manny Machado take away a hit nearly every game. I don't expect him to be elite like those 3 players but I expect him to try like they do.

 

If Gardy is OK with this... New Manager Please!!! Gardy... I'll personally build him a statue for what he's accomplished for us... But... Trevor Plouffe is not engaged and if he isn't benched after not sliding... Gardy is going through the motions just like Trevor is.

[jokin]

Help me out with a few examples on both ends, please?

 

Wil Myers for Shields.

 

Garza coming to the Rays was a steal for them as we all know, but so was the trade they made when they moved him to the Cubs- Chris Archer, Hak-Ju Lee and Sam Fuld. (Think of how useful those 3 would be on the current Twins 40-man roster).

 

They are already actively throwing David Price's name out there to get the bidding up for the makings of yet another blockbuster prospect acquisition, even though they still have 2 year left on his contract. That's a team playing 3-Dimensional Chess with the Twins meanwhile, forever a day late in anticipation and a dollar short in the willingness to take on risk, playing Chinese Checkers.

[TheLeviathan]

That's a team playing 3-Dimensional Chess with the Twins meanwhile, forever a day late in anticipation and a dollar short in the willingness to take on risk, playing Chinese Checkers.

 

I'm pretty sure Lt Commander Data is out of work these days......

[Alex]

Help me out with a few examples on both ends, please?

 

Jokin pointed out trades and how they seem more adept at trading players high than low (Shields was an excellent example). Then, just in terms of roster moves that are germane to this discussion...

 

Both the Twins and Rays had a high level prospect that had good spring training numbers (Myers and Hicks).

 

The Rays, likely a playoff contender for at least a wild card kept Myers down until June. At worst, they now have another year of control of a top prospect and all they had to sacrifice were 60ish games of him this season. To Myers' credit, they would have been worthwhile games, but the additional 100 they'll get closer to his prime will likely be even more valuable. Keeping him down 60 games was a smart baseball move that will pay off later.

 

Hicks, not unlike the Sano discussion here to replace Plouffe, was given the position out of spring training despite the fact that that was the only merit (spring numbers) he really had for the job. In addition, the Twins didn't actually need him early on because those 60 games or so weren't going to make the difference between them making the division. We know how that story went and it's clear that Hicks's time was wasted, though oddly enough the result is the same (in terms of team control) because they had to send them back down, but with the additional negative of possible harm to his development and him hurting the team. At this point, and as many suggested before the season, there was little to be gained and much to be lost.

 

I've mentioned plenty of moves I've considered odd in other threads, so I'll leave them there.

 

I will admit, Tampa Bay calling Delmon up is an odd one, but it's an expanded roster move so it's not like it's really costing them anything.

[Alex]

Wil Myers for Shields.

 

Garza coming to the Rays was a steal for them as we all know, but so was the trade they made when they moved him to the Cubs- Chris Archer, Hak-Ju Lee and Sam Fuld. (Think of how useful those 3 would be on the current Twins 40-man roster).

 

They are already actively throwing David Price's name out there to get the bidding up for the makings of yet another blockbuster prospect acquisition, even though they still have 2 year left on his contract. That's a team playing 3-Dimensional Chess with the Twins meanwhile, forever a day late in anticipation and a dollar short in the willingness to take on risk, playing Chinese Checkers.

 

Yep, it seems they really maximize value even with stars, money being an issue for them. Price is making $10M this year and will make more this year, so I'm sure they'd give up his last two arby years for good prospects. By holding off on Myers service time, they've bought an extra year of keeping him under cheaper team control, even if they trade him as they did Shields and maybe will with Price.

[kab21]

Please stop holding the Rays up as an example of how the Twins should do business. I would be pissed if the current Twins were trying to run a playoff team on 50-60M budget like the twins from a decade ago. For example I would be pissed if a 90 win Twins team was trading away a Cy Young caliber pitcher like Price. I also would have taken 3 yrs of prime Garza instead of the a talented pitcher that has no clue where the ball is going, an all glove mediocre hit SS and a crappy OF'er.

 

It has worked for the Rays to trade a few pieces away while still contending but that doesn't mean that is the route the Twins should take when they return to playoff baseball. The biggest reason that it has worked is that the Rays did a great job and built a stacked farm system (mostly with pitchers). They have had guys like Niemann, Hellickson, Cobb and Moore to put into the rotation. That's what the Twins should be copying instead of running a playoff baseball team on a shoestring budget.

[Oxtung]

Please stop holding the Rays up as an example of how the Twins should do business. I would be pissed if the current Twins were trying to run a playoff team on 50-60M budget like the twins from a decade ago. For example I would be pissed if a 90 win Twins team was trading away a Cy Young caliber pitcher like Price. I also would have taken 3 yrs of prime Garza instead of the a talented pitcher that has no clue where the ball is going, an all glove mediocre hit SS and a crappy OF'er.

 

It has worked for the Rays to trade a few pieces away while still contending but that doesn't mean that is the route the Twins should take when they return to playoff baseball. The biggest reason that it has worked is that the Rays did a great job and built a stacked farm system (mostly with pitchers). They have had guys like Niemann, Hellickson, Cobb and Moore to put into the rotation. That's what the Twins should be copying instead of running a playoff baseball team on a shoestring budget.

 

Not that I disagree with your overall premise but I think you're off base with you Garza for prospects trade characterization. Archer has a 2.8 BB/9 rate this season and an ERA of 2.81, which btw is considerably lower than Garza's 3.69. We have no idea what Lee ultimately will turn into offensively but he has a .750 OPS in the minors. The average OPS for SS in the majors this year is .677. I'd say Lee has a good chance to be above average with the bat.

[kab21]

Archer's BB rate was over 4 (career - 5.01 BB/9) at pretty much every stop in the minors. I saw him pitch earlier this year and he has a lot of movement on his pitches. Right now he's getting a lot of swings helping him out but that will change (my opinion). I think he might be a solid 3/4 pitcher (with downside) but Garza is a good 2/3 on a playoff team.

 

Stating that Lee has a .750 MiLB OPS is a lazy analysis. It's only that high due to a .380 BAPIP last year. In the high minors he's striking 20% of the time and projects to have very little power. He can be an MLB caliber SS with good defense and a .650 OPS. Solid player. Like a better version of Florimon.

 

An analysis of this trade shows that the Rays traded a very good pitcher for two players that might be okay and contribute 3 years later. This is not the kind of move that I want the Twins to be making when they are a playoff contender. In fact I want the Twins to make the exact opposite moves when they are a playoff contender. And I would be extremely disappointed if the Twins (with Target Field) were setting up to trade a Cy Young candidate 2 years before he hit FA. Everything that is being praised about the Rays in this thread is the small market mindset that the Twins used in the Metrodome. This should not be the SOP going forward.

[Alex]

Please stop holding the Rays up as an example of how the Twins should do business. I would be pissed if the current Twins were trying to run a playoff team on 50-60M budget like the twins from a decade ago. For example I would be pissed if a 90 win Twins team was trading away a Cy Young caliber pitcher like Price. I also would have taken 3 yrs of prime Garza instead of the a talented pitcher that has no clue where the ball is going, an all glove mediocre hit SS and a crappy OF'er.

 

It has worked for the Rays to trade a few pieces away while still contending but that doesn't mean that is the route the Twins should take when they return to playoff baseball. The biggest reason that it has worked is that the Rays did a great job and built a stacked farm system (mostly with pitchers). They have had guys like Niemann, Hellickson, Cobb and Moore to put into the rotation. That's what the Twins should be copying instead of running a playoff baseball team on a shoestring budget.

 

You're missing the point with your last statement and I think we'd mostly agree.

 

I would be upset with the same and I realize that the Twins are in a different place than the Rays, but the Rays moves, goals, and reasons behind them make sense for them.

 

It's not that I want to Twins to run their organization as a small market team. I don't see as much driving force or philosophy, or purpose behind the Twins front office-- it doesn't have to be the same philosophy, but I'd like to think the Twins could be smart within that philosophy. I'd point out that I think that my Hicks/Myers example still holds true, regardless of the philosophy.

 

In fact, I'd argue that the one thing the Twins do that don't make sense is that they haven't used their financial flexibility wisely, for example, by going/getting after free agents and/or Cuban player who could help them as part of a rebuild, something the Rays never would be able to do.

[Badsmerf]

Is everyone throwing in the towel too early? After the last two games, he now has an OPS of .822 for the last 28 days. Obviously going 7 for 9 with some power has helped that, but he has looked much better. Currently riding an 8 game hit streak too. Maybe Plouffe is feeling some urgency. Whatever it is, hope he keeps it up through the end of the year. He ends September with an OPS of over .800, that would make 3 months with an OPS over .800, one month at .681 and 2 months below .600. Will give us all a lot to talk about over the offseason!

[Mike Sixel]

Anyone can do well in small samples, what are his SEASON numbers? He was never great in teh minors, and overall, he's not been great in the majors. If he doesn't try hard all the time ("feeling some urgency"), I don't want him here.

 

Sano is your 3B of the future. I would not cut Plouffe, since the are awful in so many places, but I don't think he's the future.

[Badsmerf]

Anyone can do well in small samples, what are his SEASON numbers? He was never great in teh minors, and overall, he's not been great in the majors. If he doesn't try hard all the time ("feeling some urgency"), I don't want him here.

 

Sano is your 3B of the future. I would not cut Plouffe, since the are awful in so many places, but I don't think he's the future.

So you're willing to put more weight on Dozier's 3 good months than Plouffe's? Dozier has just had more success recently, while Plouffe has struggled for a few months. Not mentioning defense of course, because Dozier has fielded his position much better. If Plouffe can perform well this month, what was his issue? What do we believe? I want to have hope, so I'm pulling for him.

[Brock Beauchamp]

So you're willing to put more weight on Dozier's 3 good months than Plouffe's? Dozier has just had more success recently, while Plouffe has struggled for a few months. Not mentioning defense of course, because Dozier has fielded his position much better. If Plouffe can perform well this month, what was his issue? What do we believe? I want to have hope, so I'm pulling for him.

 

Without a doubt I would put more stock in Dozier's results. In the case of Dozier, there is a clear date to draw the line where he changed as a hitter. Before that point, he sucked. After that point, he became an .800 OPS hitter. During that rapid uptick in performance, he was working with Bruno and they found a hitch in his timing. They fixed it three months ago and wham, he's a different hitter now. That can't be a coincidence. The two events coincide perfectly and after three months of consistent performances, I think it's safe to say that Brian Dozier is now an above-average second baseman.

 

Now, that doesn't mean he'll continue to OPS at .850 for several years but I'm pretty comfortable in saying that we've seen the real Brian Dozier over the past several months.

 

Plouffe, on the other hand... *shrugs*

 

I don't get the guy.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Now, that doesn't mean he'll continue to OPS at .850 for several years but I'm pretty comfortable in saying that we've seen the real Brian Dozier over the past several months.

 

Don't know if I'd go that far. Seems like when a guy suddenly "fixes" something at age 26, even if it's "real", it's not quite as permanent as a guy who establishes that level earlier. Dozier is almost certainly a risk to get untracked like Plouffe did. It is still vitally important to see if he can carry this through 2014 -- basically, what Plouffe has failed to do this year.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Don't know if I'd go that far. Seems like when a guy suddenly "fixes" something at age 26, even if it's "real", it's not quite as permanent as a guy who establishes that level earlier. Dozier is almost certainly a risk to get untracked like Plouffe did. It is still vitally important to see if he can carry this through 2014 -- basically, what Plouffe has failed to do this year.

 

Well, Dozier also had a breakout in 2011 so he has shown that he can hit. The difference to me is that Plouffe basically broke out for 30-45 days in 2012 whereas Dozier has posted a .700+ OPS for 90+ days. When you start to creep past the two month mark, pitchers have adjusted and if the hitter is still getting results, that means their adjustments aren't working.

 

Also, Dozier finally looks like the player advertised through the minors. He's showing good discipline (never Plouffe's strong point), making contact (again, not Plouffe's strong point), and has a solid, though unspectacular, glove. The only surprising thing is his power, which is why I'm not comfortable saying he's an .800+ OPS player going forward.

 

Dozier looked like a lost player in 2012. He didn't have good bat control like he did in the minors, he didn't show any discipline like he did in the minors, and his hands/footwork were awful (again, unlike the minors). I think he was overwhelmed and it basically destroyed every aspect of his game.

 

I don't see that with Plouffe. I'm still hopeful that Trevor will become a good starter going forward but given his defensive struggles, rumblings that the front office doesn't care for him much, and his player profile of "streaky, but powerful", I hold much less hope of him becoming a regular player than I do Brian Dozier. I think he's a prime candidate for platoon duty at the minimum, though.

[big dog]

Even when Dozier wasn't hitting early this year, his fielding at second was very good. He doesn't make bad plays on the base paths. I always feel like he's trying. With Plouffe, there are too many times he just looks lost, at the plate, in the field, or even recently on the bases. I am not nearly as optimistic that he will turn into a valued part of this team, compared to Dozier.

[Mike Sixel]

So you're willing to put more weight on Dozier's 3 good months than Plouffe's? Dozier has just had more success recently, while Plouffe has struggled for a few months. Not mentioning defense of course, because Dozier has fielded his position much better. If Plouffe can perform well this month, what was his issue? What do we believe? I want to have hope, so I'm pulling for him.

 

Me personally? No, I am not totally bought into Dozier yet. But as everyone has pointed out, Dozier can at least field his position, and Dozier was better in the minors.

 

One month means nothing, other than people swing around a control chart, and that Plouffe is at his high point right now.

[beckmt]

Not quite ready to give up yet. Plouffe has about 2-3 months next year to prove he belongs.

[Otto von Ballpark]

You make very good points, Brock. I remember Dozier looking so bad earlier, it's hard to believe he's really this solid of a player. Obviously I'm all for guaranteeing his job through 2014 at least, hoping he can keep it up.

[ThePuck]

I think Dozier has an exceptionally spectacular glove myself...he's fantastic out there.

 

On top of that, all I saw was a rookie struggling, like most rookies tend to do. I never waivered from the belief he'd be a solid MLB player.