Letting Sonny Gray Walk Sparked the Twins’ Downward Spiral

[IndianaTwin]

33 minutes ago, S Bart said:

Totally disagree. Rocco does way more than other managers. I have been to probably 30 games this year in person and have seen many teams. 

There's a very high correlation between pitcher suckitude and a quick hook on Rocco's part.

This year, starters have been lousy and the Twins are the among the lowest teams in IP/Start, though using Openers as often as they have also brings down the average. In 2023 the starters were good and the Twins were third highest in IP/Start. Three of their pitchers were among the top 50 in the majors in IP/Start.

[LA Vikes Fan]

I think that Ryan's comments need to be looked at in the context of this dumpster fire of a season. Ryan is a competitor and he knows he would be in high demand to pitch for a contender. The next 2 seasons are his age 30 and 31 years so it's not like he's a fresh faced 25 year old with his whole career in front of him. He's in the prime of his career pitching for a mediocre team that just got measurably worse at the deadline. I'm not surprised he might want out. I suspect anyone any good on the Twins is at least wondering if the grass might be greener elsewhere. 

I think Ryan wants to pitch on a team where the games matter and the playoffs are a real possibility, if not a likelihood. That ain't your 2025 Minnesota Twins and probably isn't the 2026 version unless a lot of ifs pan out in the very near future. I want the team to keep him at least until the 2026 trade deadline if only to keep us competitive and because deadline trades tend to get you better prospects back, but I wouldn't be surprised if his agent pushes for a trade this off season. It's hard to get good players to want to stay on bad teams. That doesn't make Ryan a bad guy, It just makes him a competitive guy who wants to be in a position to succeed. 

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, S Bart said:

Totally disagree. Rocco does way more than other managers. I have been to probably 30 games this year in person and have seen many teams. 

 see above

[S Bart]

33 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

 see above

No disrespect to you...but a reset is needed in my view with a new manager once this ownership/FO is adjusted. Until that moment, it really does not matter. 

[tarheeltwinsfan]

7 hours ago, old nurse said:

Aren’t you someone on a message board. Why should anyone then believe your statement?

It was a legitimate concern of whom to believe. If Joe Ryan said that Sonny wanted to stay in Minneapolis, and if Joe Ryan is to be believed, then there is your answer.

[DocBauer]

1 hour ago, LA VIkes Fan said:

I think that Ryan's comments need to be looked at in the context of this dumpster fire of a season. Ryan is a competitor and he knows he would be in high demand to pitch for a contender. The next 2 seasons are his age 30 and 31 years so it's not like he's a fresh faced 25 year old with his whole career in front of him. He's in the prime of his career pitching for a mediocre team that just got measurably worse at the deadline. I'm not surprised he might want out. I suspect anyone any good on the Twins is at least wondering if the grass might be greener elsewhere. 

I think Ryan wants to pitch on a team where the games matter and the playoffs are a real possibility, if not a likelihood. That ain't your 2025 Minnesota Twins and probably isn't the 2026 version unless a lot of ifs pan out in the very near future. I want the team to keep him at least until the 2026 trade deadline if only to keep us competitive and because deadline trades tend to get you better prospects back, but I wouldn't be surprised if his agent pushes for a trade this off season. It's hard to get good players to want to stay on bad teams. That doesn't make Ryan a bad guy, It just makes him a competitive guy who wants to be in a position to succeed. 

I absolutely appreciate Ryan's passion to want to win. His passion and determination is what also holds him back, somewhat, as he sometimes lets bad plays and bad calls affect him on the mound. But I do think he's settled down and learned to better deal with that, overcome, and be his normal self.

His comments at the deadline were NOT anti-Twins. I believe his comments were basically "it's exciting to think about, but I'd like to win here".

The Twins NOT trading him or Lopez and adding a BAT, probably at 1B, and the number of great prospects ready to debut, and an actual EXTENSION offer would make him very happy to stick around, IMO.

Over and over I've stated how the team could ADD a BAT, probably at 1B and leave DH open. Then add a couple 40 man man fliers, plus some MILB contract fliers, in addition to internal options, and rebuild at least a competent BP.

And without going crazy, they could have a payroll $10M less than last season.

NOT what I WANT, but you just might have a competive team for a payroll WAY below league average. 

EXPECTED ML PAYROLL AVG for 2026 is around $180M. That leaves a TON OF ROOM to sign Ryan for an extension...maybe 3yrs...and Jeffers for 2 additional years. And those extensions wouldn't even take place until 2027.

This is not only VIABLE, but it still potentially keeps the Twins payroll well below the 2027 average. 

But then again, we're talking about a 3rd generation of billionaires who have little clue what they're actually doing. They've already kissed away 1/3 of the organizations actual worth just to eliminate their borrowed debt.

I have to wonder, if you were part of the new minority owners who just paid the Pohlads somewhere between $400-500M, would you be content to stroke your belly and just wait for a payout 10yrs from now?

Or would you be stamping your fist at the table wondering WTF is going on in regards to where my $ is being spent? Why are the stands virtually empty right now? How are you going to increase the value of my new investment?

Just me as a lower middle class American. But even as a billionaire, I still think I'd like to know where my money is going. 

[old nurse]

1 hour ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

It was a legitimate concern of whom to believe. If Joe Ryan said that Sonny wanted to stay in Minneapolis, and if Joe Ryan is to be believed, then there is your answer.

If you are questioning the veracity of what somebody else says like the post I responded to, the perhaps the poster should include where he found the quote because after all he was just another person on the Internet 

[Major League Ready]

7 hours ago, Schmoeman5 said:

So where is the next 1b 2b 3b SS C in this system thats so strong. I'll give you the OF .may be covered. Maybe. No matter how highly ranked. That is all just speculation and hope. Until proven otherwise 

The whole prospects are just prospects ignores that 80% of WAR comes from prospects in all of the most successful organizations with average or below average revenue.   I just don't understand how hoping for the only viable avenue to success is misguided.

[old nurse]

3 hours ago, Launch Angle said:

What a dumb take. 18/mil for one year vs 25 per year for 3. Nobody in their right mind would agree to that even if they really wanted to stay.

The dumb take is a team that had holes in the outfield and first base was Sonny Gray away from being competitive. 

[USAFChief]

3 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

The whole prospects are just prospects ignores that 80% of WAR comes from prospects 

And 80 percent of percentages you see on the internet are made up on the spot.

[Major League Ready]

3 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

And 80 percent of percentages you see on the internet are made up on the spot.

I have compiled the data from literally every 90+ win team since the turn of the century.  With all of the very adamant positions about these things posted on this site, I was curious to know what has actually produced results.

[Schmoeman5]

12 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

The whole prospects are just prospects ignores that 80% of WAR comes from prospects in all of the most successful organizations with average or below average revenue.   I just don't understand how hoping for the only viable avenue to success is misguided.

Show me 1 team where 80% of their WAR is attributed to prospects. 

[Major League Ready]

1 minute ago, Schmoeman5 said:

Show me 1 team where 80% of their WAR is attributed to prospects. 

Players acquired as prospects.  We need to define what is unproven.  When I compiled this date, I defined a prospect as a player that have never produced 1.5 WAR is a season and an established player as a player that had produced 1.5 WAR in a season.  That might not be what people ask for the organization to go out an get but I wanted to be consistent.  The table below is for all of the top 7 Guardians teams in the past couple decades.   Add together Drafted / Intl & AaP (acquired as Prospect)  In Cleveland's case, in aggregate, 90% came from players acquired as prospects.

7	Cleveland Guardians	WINS	Drafted	Intl	AaP	Trade	FA
100%	Cleveland 2017	102	24.3%	19.3%	44.3%	4.3%	7.8%
100%	Cleveland 2007	96	30.5%	38.2%	31.3%	0.0%	0.0%
100%	Cleveland 2016	94	33.1%	22.7%	44.2%	0.0%	0.0%
100%	Cleveland 2019	93	34.0%	17.8%	44.1%	4.0%	0.0%
100%	Cleveland 2005	93	7.5%	21.8%	51.4%	2.5%	16.8%
100%	Cleveland 2022	92	34.2%	19.7%	46.2%	0.0%	0.0%
100%	Cleveland 2013	92	14.9%	0.0%	50.1%	10.2%	24.8%
	Guardians Total	94.57	25.5%	19.9%	44.5%	3.0%	7.1%

[Schmoeman5]

7 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

Players acquired as prospects.  We need to define what is unproven.  When I compiled this date, I defined a prospect as a player that have never produced 1.5 WAR is a season and an established player as a player that had produced 1.5 WAR in a season.  That might not be what people ask for the organization to go out an get but I wanted to be consistent.  The table below is for all of the top 7 Guardians teams in the past couple decades.   Add together Drafted / Intl & AaP (acquired as Prospect)  In Cleveland's case, in aggregate, 90% came from players acquired as prospects.

7	Cleveland Guardians	WINS	Drafted	Intl	AaP	Trade	FA
100%	Cleveland 2017	102	24.3%	19.3%	44.3%	4.3%	7.8%
100%	Cleveland 2007	96	30.5%	38.2%	31.3%	0.0%	0.0%
100%	Cleveland 2016	94	33.1%	22.7%	44.2%	0.0%	0.0%
100%	Cleveland 2019	93	34.0%	17.8%	44.1%	4.0%	0.0%
100%	Cleveland 2005	93	7.5%	21.8%	51.4%	2.5%	16.8%
100%	Cleveland 2022	92	34.2%	19.7%	46.2%	0.0%	0.0%
100%	Cleveland 2013	92	14.9%	0.0%	50.1%	10.2%	24.8%
	Guardians Total	94.57	25.5%	19.9%	44.5%	3.0%	7.1%

Really? Thats how you justify your comment which you pull out 10 times a year. Your statement implies that prospects like Keaschal who started the year in milb account for 80% of a teams WAR because they're small or mid market teams that can't afford free agents. So when the Twins acquired Joe Ryan as a prospect you can count his WAR for his 1st season. Thats it. You're counting every year after that when the prospect status no longer applies

[S Bart]

11 hours ago, S Bart said:

I don't believe that Rocco and Sonny had a very good connection. My gut reaction is that many pitchers don't connect with Rocco's "pull philosophy. "

Rocco .........$^#$

[Major League Ready]

9 hours ago, Schmoeman5 said:

Really? Thats how you justify your comment which you pull out 10 times a year. Your statement implies that prospects like Keaschal who started the year in milb account for 80% of a teams WAR because they're small or mid market teams that can't afford free agents. So when the Twins acquired Joe Ryan as a prospect you can count his WAR for his 1st season. Thats it. You're counting every year after that when the prospect status no longer applies

Yes, really.  You are looking quite literally at how much is produced by rookies which has very little value in a discussion about how contending teams were built.  I am looking at how players were acquired to determine which acquisition methods most impact the success of contending teams.   For example, players on the current Tigers team that will produce 1.5 WAR or more this year are listed below.  86% of their WAR is from players that were drafted or acquired as prospects.  This demonstrates the dependence of average revenue or below average teams have on drafted players or prospects acquired in trade like Joe Ryan.  Yes, they are prospects and many fail but the premise we should not rely on them defies logic given success is dependent upon developing them.  That's the point.  History is very clear that free agency and acquiring established players plays a much smaller role in success.   

	2025 Tigers		Acquired	WAR
	Riley Greene		Drafted	3.0
	Zach McKinstry		AaP	3.2
	Gleyber Torres		FA	2.4
	Dillon Dingler		Drafted	3.7
	Spencer Torkelson		Drafted	2.1
	Wenceel Perez		Intl	1.9
	Colt Keith		Drafted	1.4
	Kerry Carpenter		Drafted	1.5
	Tarik Skubal		Drafted	6.5
	Jack Flaherty		FA	2.2
	Casey Mize		Drafted	1.9
	Reese Olson		AaP	1.4
	Will Vest		Drafted	1.4
	Acquired by:
	Drafted		8	66.0%
	International Draft		1	5.8%
	Acquired as Prospect		2	14.1%
	Trade for Proven		0	0.0%
	Free Agent		2	14.1%

 

[tarheeltwinsfan]

10 hours ago, old nurse said:

If you are questioning the veracity of what somebody else says like the post I responded to, the perhaps the poster should include where he found the quote because after all he was just another person on the Internet 

I understand your point.  Thanks for clarifying. 

[Doctor Wu]

20 hours ago, Nashvilletwin said:

Sonny never wanted to stay here.  He couldn’t wait to get out of Dodge. He wasn’t overly fond of Rocco.  Couldn’t see a future for him personally (i.e. professionally and/or financially) or team wise by staying.  Smart guy to get out while the getting was good.

I think that's an accurate assessment. Gray never seemed content as a Twin and I'm sure he didn't hesitate one bit when a better offer came around. Sure, he was a good pitcher for us. I have no idea if he was such a positive or influential voice in the clubhouse, as Ryan stated, but I really don't think losing Gray suddenly caused the Twins to descend into some sort of downward spiral. Too many other factors contributed to that, and losing Sonny Gray would not be high on the list of regrets. 

[old nurse]

22 hours ago, GNess said:

You get what you pay for and you don't get what you don't pay for. The Twins seem to emphasize the latter. 

Attendance in 2023 would say that even with a higher payroll ad a competitive team, the fans did not come out, so indeed the fas are getting what they paid for 

[Rufus]

Gray is in the second year of a three year contract. He was worth it last year, not earning his money this year. Next year he is getting $35 million with a $5 million player option in 27.  The Cardinals would love to unload him, but who would take him at that price?  If the Twins had signed him, his contract would be a bigger albatross than Correa's was.

[Schmoeman5]

3 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

Yes, really.  You are looking quite literally at how much is produced by rookies which has very little value in a discussion about how contending teams were built.  I am looking at how players were acquired to determine which acquisition methods most impact the success of contending teams.   For example, players on the current Tigers team that will produce 1.5 WAR or more this year are listed below.  86% of their WAR is from players that were drafted or acquired as prospects.  This demonstrates the dependence of average revenue or below average teams have on drafted players or prospects acquired in trade like Joe Ryan.  Yes, they are prospects and many fail but the premise we should not rely on them defies logic given success is dependent upon developing them.  That's the point.  History is very clear that free agency and acquiring established players plays a much smaller role in success.   

	2025 Tigers		Acquired	WAR
	Riley Greene		Drafted	3.0
	Zach McKinstry		AaP	3.2
	Gleyber Torres		FA	2.4
	Dillon Dingler		Drafted	3.7
	Spencer Torkelson		Drafted	2.1
	Wenceel Perez		Intl	1.9
	Colt Keith		Drafted	1.4
	Kerry Carpenter		Drafted	1.5
	Tarik Skubal		Drafted	6.5
	Jack Flaherty		FA	2.2
	Casey Mize		Drafted	1.9
	Reese Olson		AaP	1.4
	Will Vest		Drafted	1.4
	Acquired by:
	Drafted		8	66.0%
	International Draft		1	5.8%
	Acquired as Prospect		2	14.1%
	Trade for Proven		0	0.0%
	Free Agent		2	14.1%

 

BS. Every team has players that they developed. Agree that FA make up a smaller segment of WAR on a given team. But thats not what you were implying. Let me ask. Are you a lawyer or a politician?

[David HK]

There's a lot of justification with convincing stat lines and dollar signs.  But I agree with Joe Ryan.

It's not about stats.  It's about culture.  Most likely, nearly all of us have spent time on teams of one form or another, and leadership is a key component.  Sonny Gray may have been an a-hole at times, but he was a true battler and a leader.  (And #2 in CY voting the year he walked).  The part of the headline of this article hits the nail right on the head-- It did begin the downward spiral, because no sooner did we finally win a playoff series (2 games- but who cares?), and have a dependable staff ace, than that silver-spoon, tone-deaf, cake-eater joe pohlad tells the fans that ownership basically doesn't give a 💩 about winning, or the fans.  They care only for their  pocket book.  

The pohlads have destroyed any fan connection or interest for years to come, and it most definitely started with that p*ssant joe pohlad's Sonny Gray decision.  

[TopGunn#22]

Nothing in the history of the Twins would lead any of us to believe that Sonny Gray was going to be with the Twins for the 2024 season.  $75 million for a pitcher like Gray at his age would have been a bad investment.  Joe Ryan is a bit younger, but he will be entering his age 30 season in 2026.  Whether Ryan is discouraged or distracted, he hasn’t pitched effectively since the trade deadline.  I was in Kansas City to witness the first inning shellacking he received.  At this point, I don’t think it’s a wise investment to sign Ryan to a 6 year contract for $180-$200 million dollars.  I would trade him to Boston for Jarren Duran.  I might throw in SWR to get Payton Tolle back in return.  Duran and Keaschall at the top of the batting order will give the Twins a couple of reliable catalyst’s to make for a more consistent offense.  Make Wallner part of a deal to bring back a young MLB catcher. The Twins probably aren’t contenders next year.  It’s probably best to deal Ryan at his highest value.

[LA Vikes Fan]

16 hours ago, DocBauer said:

I absolutely appreciate Ryan's passion to want to win. His passion and determination is what also holds him back, somewhat, as he sometimes lets bad plays and bad calls affect him on the mound. But I do think he's settled down and learned to better deal with that, overcome, and be his normal self.

His comments at the deadline were NOT anti-Twins. I believe his comments were basically "it's exciting to think about, but I'd like to win here".

The Twins NOT trading him or Lopez and adding a BAT, probably at 1B, and the number of great prospects ready to debut, and an actual EXTENSION offer would make him very happy to stick around, IMO.

Over and over I've stated how the team could ADD a BAT, probably at 1B and leave DH open. Then add a couple 40 man man fliers, plus some MILB contract fliers, in addition to internal options, and rebuild at least a competent BP.

And without going crazy, they could have a payroll $10M less than last season.

NOT what I WANT, but you just might have a competive team for a payroll WAY below league average. 

EXPECTED ML PAYROLL AVG for 2026 is around $180M. That leaves a TON OF ROOM to sign Ryan for an extension...maybe 3yrs...and Jeffers for 2 additional years. And those extensions wouldn't even take place until 2027.

This is not only VIABLE, but it still potentially keeps the Twins payroll well below the 2027 average. 

But then again, we're talking about a 3rd generation of billionaires who have little clue what they're actually doing. They've already kissed away 1/3 of the organizations actual worth just to eliminate their borrowed debt.

I have to wonder, if you were part of the new minority owners who just paid the Pohlads somewhere between $400-500M, would you be content to stroke your belly and just wait for a payout 10yrs from now?

Or would you be stamping your fist at the table wondering WTF is going on in regards to where my $ is being spent? Why are the stands virtually empty right now? How are you going to increase the value of my new investment?

Just me as a lower middle class American. But even as a billionaire, I still think I'd like to know where my money is going. 

Well put. I think Ryan and others want to be in a place where they can win. They would just as soon stay in MN; it's what they know, where they're known, and where they and their families are comfortable. But they don't want to stay if the team isn't going to try to get better. I don't think guys like Ryan, Jeffers and Ober will sign extensions unless they think the team will be competitive at least for the playoffs. 

That's the rub. When will this team be better? Are Keaschall and Martin for real? Will Wallner or Larnach take that next step forward to be a quality middle of the order bat? Will the FO be given the resources to get a 1B or rebuild the bullpen this off season?  Lots of questions. I don't think the good players ae going to re-sign in MN without some answers.   

[Major League Ready]

4 hours ago, Schmoeman5 said:

BS. Every team has players that they developed. Agree that FA make up a smaller segment of WAR on a given team. But thats not what you were implying. Let me ask. Are you a lawyer or a politician?

I am not implying anything.  I am supplying factual data that took me about 30 hours to put together as to how teams acquired the players that are producing on winning teams.  They can draft them, trade for established players, trade for prospects or get them in free agency.  I took the time to get the data because of instances just like this one.  If you don't like the facts, ignore them if it makes you feel better.

[LA Vikes Fan]

Agreed. Does anyone know the stats on talent acquisition overall? I think it might vary team to team but I would guess that most teams outside of the big markets acquire most of their roster through the draft or acquiring prospects before they reach the Majors. I live in LA and you would expect that they are one of the highest FA based teams. Their current roster is roughly 60% guys that previously played for other MLB teams, 11 of whom are free agents signings who were successful at other teams or 42% of the roster. The other 18% were traded for after they had their MLB debuts or signed as minor league free agents after being released, depending on how you count the 2 guys from Japan (I counted them as MLB free agent signings). The MLB free agent signees are their best players so the WAR is likely higher. By contrast, Detroit's WAR is 85% from draftees or prospect acquisitions. That shows the contrast and suggests to me that good mid or smaller market teams are the result of developing draftees and/or trading for and developing prospects. That fits with the idea that the best free agents go to the highest revenue and thus highest paying teams. I don't have the full data set though and it would be interesting. 

[Major League Ready]

3 hours ago, LA VIkes Fan said:

Agreed. Does anyone know the stats on talent acquisition overall? I think it might vary team to team but I would guess that most teams outside of the big markets acquire most of their roster through the draft or acquiring prospects before they reach the Majors. I live in LA and you would expect that they are one of the highest FA based teams. Their current roster is roughly 60% guys that previously played for other MLB teams, 11 of whom are free agents signings who were successful at other teams or 42% of the roster. The other 18% were traded for after they had their MLB debuts or signed as minor league free agents after being released, depending on how you count the 2 guys from Japan (I counted them as MLB free agent signings). The MLB free agent signees are their best players so the WAR is likely higher. By contrast, Detroit's WAR is 85% from draftees or prospect acquisitions. That shows the contrast and suggests to me that good mid or smaller market teams are the result of developing draftees and/or trading for and developing prospects. That fits with the idea that the best free agents go to the highest revenue and thus highest paying teams. I don't have the full data set though and it would be interesting. 

I didn't collect every team because that would have been an enormous task and I was only interested in how winning teams were built when revenue was similar or less than the Twins.  I was also interested in how they acquired their productive players as opposed to all players.  Therefore, I collected the data for teams in the bottom half of revenue win 90 plus wins and I only included position players that produced 1.5 WAR and RPs with 1.2 WAR.  So, my focus was pretty specific.

The 80% is an average but there has been a few teams that produced 20-30% from free agency, including the Twins.  The 2019 Twins stand out with 30% coming from free agents.  If you look into that detail for all of these teams, about a third of them are medium priced free agents that performed exceptionally well and most of them are modest priced free agents that put up 1.5-3 WAR.  

[LA Vikes Fan]

57 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

I didn't collect every team because that would have been that would have been an enormous task and I was only interested in how winning teams were built when revenue was similar or less than the Twins.  I was also interested in how they acquired their productive players as opposed to all players.  Therefore, I collected the data for teams in the bottom half of revenue win 90 plus wins and I only included position players that produced 1.5 WAR and RPs with 1.2 WAR.  So, my focus was pretty specific.

The 80% is an average but there has been a few teams that produced 20-30% from free agency, including the Twins.  The 2019 Twins stand out with 30% coming from free agents.  If you look into that detail for all of these teams, about a third of them are medium priced free agents that performed exceptionally well and most of them are modest priced free agents that put up 1.5-3 WAR.  

Thanks. That all makes sense to me. It's interesting that on the 2025 Twins, the WAR leaders are Buxton at 4.7 to date (draftee), Ryan at 3.4 (traded for as prospect), Jeffers at 1.9 (draftee), Lopez 1.6 (traded for after MLB debut), Keaschall at 1.6 (draftee)., Wallner at 1.3 (draftee), Matthews at 1.2 (draftee), and Lewis at 1.1 (draftee). That's it for guys over 1 that are still with the team. Bader had 2.0 before being traded, Jax 1.5, Duran 1.2, Paddack 1.2, Castro 1.1, and Correa 1.0 so we traded most of the guys who we didn't develop. Of the 9 guys we still have that have WAR to date over 1, 7 were draftees, 1 traded for as a prospect, and only 1 traded for after establishing himself in Bigs. No free agents and really one one if we count the guys who were here but got traded away - Correa.  

What's kind of sad is when you add 10% to their current totals for the 10% of the season left, correct for partial season for Lopez, Matthews, Lewis, and Keaschall, and then apply the WAR scale, we  don't have a lot going for us. The Fangraphs scale is 6.0 plus is elite, MVP-caliber talent, 4-6 All-Star caliber player, 2-4 good to above average, 0-2 below average to average. The MLB scale is 2 WAR - average full-time starter, 4 WAR decent, semi-star level player, 6 WAR, a true star level player, 8 WAR  - a superstar, MVP caliber player. I used the Fangraphs scale because I have the Fangraphs numbers and don't know if the MLB calculation is different. Here's what you get:

Buxton - 5.25 - All-Star level player.

Ryan - 3.8-3.9 - All-Star level player or close.  

Lopez - @3.5-4 because missed so much with injury - All-Star level player or close. 

Keaschall - 4 plus projected over a full season. Probably #2 on the team. All-Star level if this is real. 

Jeffers - 2.1 - Solid regular. 

Wallner - 1.5 - 1.8 projected due to injury - average or slightly below average MLB player.

Matthews - 2 -2.5 plus projected over a full season. Average to slightly above.

Lewis - 1.8-2 plus projected due to injury over a full season. Average MLB player.

That's it. No one else projects to 2 WAR or more. Austin Martin with 0.4 WAR in 109 ABs projects to around 2ish over a full season. Larnach has 515 PAs and has 0.4 WAR in really a full season, and Brooks Lee has 0.1 in 468 PAs, 80% or more of a full season. Sands and Topa are both over 60 innings, pretty much a full season for a reliever, and have WAR of 0.9 and 0.8 respectively. SWR is at 0.5 in 94 innings, and Festa is 0.3 in 53 innings, both project around 1 WAR.

I know WAR isn't the end all and be all but I think it paints a pretty accurate and not a pretty picture for this team. In the field, Buxton is a star and Keaschall is a star in waiting if this is real. Jeffers is a solid regular. Wallner and Lewis are average or slightly below players. Martin could be a solid regular to above average if this year continues. On the pitching staff, Ryan and Lopez are stars or are close, Matthews is a solid regular if this year is real. Ober at 0.7 is below average, SWR and Festa are a little better than Ober, and there is nothing in the bullpen other than Sands. We need a lot.  

[Twinkie in Deutschland]

If I were the players, especially Buxton, Lopez and Ryan, but on behalf of the rest of the team, I would storm to the ownership's box after the last inning of a disastrous 2025 season and demand a clear explanation of what is ahead. I would vent my frustrations and make the point clear that we want to win and we cannot with kids on the squad. If the Pohlads cannot invest in the free agency, then they should demand a trade. My feeling is the Pohlads want to either sell the team or move it out of state as soon as possible anyway. In any case I would say good riddance! We can get investors homegrown for an expansion team anyway, let alone live without the Losers. 

[tony&rodney]

The inability of management to complete reasonably significant transactions after each of the last two years (sell high) left the Twins with a slow, defensively challenged roster that struggles to hit. The trades of the top 5 relief pitchers was a disappointment (for me) due to the returns. Expectations and concerns are heavy toward further deals this winter. The returns need to be significant. Look at it in reverse. If the Twins were a team that needed a really good pitcher to win it all next season, would you trade a Walker Jenkins or Luke Keaschall for that guy? Is there an MLB team willing to trade a top talent for Joe Ryan? More importantly, can the current regime identify talent?

The downward spiral started when Derek Falvey arrived may be a fair article. The style of play he favors lacks creativity and leaves fans yawning. Some really decent Twins teams could have benefitted from a more wide open approach.