Are Comments About the Twins' Culture More a Reflection of Correa, or Rocco's Clubhouse?

[jmlease1]

1 minute ago, Dman said:

I think he is saying the  "-" means he was referring to the kitchen not the coaching staff and nutritionists.  In the Yahoo sprots article they add the following which seems to indicate what @chpettit19 was saying.

"But, while Paddack expressed how this change of scenery is something he's still trying to manage, he also took a jab at the Twins. He essentially called out the Twins for their facilities by praising the Tigers' versions, and showing amazement at the difference."

 

If Paddack is bitching about facilities, that's on ownership, not the manager. And I think we all know this ownership isn't making significant investments in facilities right now. But that all impacts more against recruitment and retention of free agents, rather than the "clubhouse culture", which was supposedly what we were talking about here.

Was Paddack taking a shot at the Twins? Maybe, or maybe he was trying to get in good with his new organization so they'll consider keeping him on the playoff roster. But it's taken some work to find people who were looking to get out, huh? Doubt we'll hear anything running down the Twins and how they wanted to leave from Castro, Stewart, Bader, Duran (we've seen his quotes already), Varland, France, Correa (if he really wanted out he would have considered more than just Houston in waiving the no-trade) or Dobnak.

We're seeing a lot of self-fulfilling prophecy going on right now. The people who hate the manager and the front office and want them all gone are reading in whatever they want to keep making their point. There's no real evidence that the Twins have done a poor job in how they treat their players and make them want to leave...outside of not winning enough. They've kept the knucklehead count in the clubhouse down (seemingly close to or at zero most of the time).

That's why the comments from Pablo are a little surprising, and to me read more like "we ain't winning enough and something needs to be done".

[Aggies7]

3 minutes ago, jmlease1 said:

If Paddack is bitching about facilities, that's on ownership, not the manager. And I think we all know this ownership isn't making significant investments in facilities right now. But that all impacts more against recruitment and retention of free agents, rather than the "clubhouse culture", which was supposedly what we were talking about here.

Was Paddack taking a shot at the Twins? Maybe, or maybe he was trying to get in good with his new organization so they'll consider keeping him on the playoff roster. But it's taken some work to find people who were looking to get out, huh? Doubt we'll hear anything running down the Twins and how they wanted to leave from Castro, Stewart, Bader, Duran (we've seen his quotes already), Varland, France, Correa (if he really wanted out he would have considered more than just Houston in waiving the no-trade) or Dobnak.

We're seeing a lot of self-fulfilling prophecy going on right now. The people who hate the manager and the front office and want them all gone are reading in whatever they want to keep making their point. There's no real evidence that the Twins have done a poor job in how they treat their players and make them want to leave...outside of not winning enough. They've kept the knucklehead count in the clubhouse down (seemingly close to or at zero most of the time).

That's why the comments from Pablo are a little surprising, and to me read more like "we ain't winning enough and something needs to be done".

Concerning comments have been being made since the end of last season, it’s nothing new.

[jmlease1]

1 minute ago, Aggies7 said:

 The Twins are not an attractive organization to play for right now and that shouldn’t be a controversial statement.

Because they cut payroll and have an ownership that can't be trusted to spend at a league-average level. You've been suggesting it's because they have a stupid front office and a crappy manager.

If they keep Lopez & Ryan (which sadly I fear they will not) and get $40M in payroll authorization to spend, I'm quite certain they won't have any trouble spending it, and not just overpaying a bunch of fringe guys like Ty France.

The fish rots from the head.

[Aggies7]

2 minutes ago, jmlease1 said:

Because they cut payroll and have an ownership that can't be trusted to spend at a league-average level. You've been suggesting it's because they have a stupid front office and a crappy manager.

If they keep Lopez & Ryan (which sadly I fear they will not) and get $40M in payroll authorization to spend, I'm quite certain they won't have any trouble spending it, and not just overpaying a bunch of fringe guys like Ty France.

The fish rots from the head.

Can it be all three reasons?

[TheLeviathan]

2 hours ago, Wedman13 said:

Or maybe Jax or Varland then?  Varland pouting about going to the bullpen (which was the right move) or Jax about being taken out of the game before being traded?

I tend to think none of the three players were what Pablo is referring to (although your logic of not pointing at anyone still here makes sense).  I would think it's when Joe Pohlidal pulled the strings on the payroll.  But just speculating as I have no idea.

I'm inclined to think Correa was a part of it, but yes....the payroll pull was definitely a major factor.

[chpettit19]

2 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

He even mentioned the nutritionist! Yes, I will believe exactly that based on the comments I’ve heard over the last few years and that most professional athletes don’t want to waste their minimal playing years with a directionless organization with poor management. Even players still with the team are saying concerning things. The Twins are not an attractive organization to play for right now and that shouldn’t be a controversial statement.

Neither are the Angels, and yet look where Mike Trout refuses to leave. Every quote about Correa being willing to leave was about him not wanting to but being willing to go back to Houston and Houston alone because that's where his and his wife's families live. Byron Buxton continues to want to stay here. Pablo didn't say he was demanding a trade this offseason in that statement did he? Joe Ryan hasn't demanded one, or did I miss that? I already gave you Arenado refusing to go to the Astros and Rodriguez refusing to go to the freaking Los Angeles Dodgers. 

But sure, you have the mind of the pro athlete all figured out, clearly. The Pirates, Rockies, White Sox, and Marlins are never able to get players and have all their players demanding trades constantly. Nobody is ever happy in those places.

You're believing the comments you want to believe and ignoring the ones you don't. Jax only wanted to be traded because they blew up the team. Correa would only go back to where his family lives. Joe Ryan, when asked about being traded, said "I would like to stay." Is that the comment you're basing your opinion on? Is it carrying a lot of weight when you say "Who didn't want out?...Everyone else couldn't wait to GTFO."? Byron Buxton's quote after quote about not going anywhere and refusal to waive his NTC a big part of why you think they all want(ed) out? Duran's quote about being heartbroken if he'd be traded when you really knew they all wanted out?

[Woof Bronzer]

 

52 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

No, not disingenuous at all. That dash before the last part is important. It's the inflection and nonverbal part of speech that helps us understand the meaning of what was said. The facilities and kitchen are what he was saying is "amazing" compared to what the Twins have.

The original poster said nobody who was traded wanted to be traded.  That's false, we know for sure that both Correa and Jax did.  

Do you think Pablo is lying when he says the culture needs to improve?  Is he a rube for thinking culture matters?  

[Woof Bronzer]

6 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

But sure, you have the mind of the pro athlete all figured out, clearly.

In this instance we don't have to speculate, we had a pro athlete (Pablo Lopez) share his mind here.  He said culture needs to change here.  And your instinct is to dismiss what he says, because you know best, clearly.  Great job.

[AceWrigley]

Pablo's words make me think of this:

[Squirrel]

2 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

In this instance we don't have to speculate, we had a pro athlete (Pablo Lopez) share his mind here.  He said culture needs to change here.  And your instinct is to dismiss what he says, because you know best, clearly.  Great job.

Okay, Pablo saying the culture needs to change, which I believe it does, isn’t him saying he wants out. I don’t think chpettit is dismissing anything. But he is calling out some who are trying to intuit the meaning to be everyone wants out. For the record, I stand by what I’ve said above about the culture. This article is asking is the culture problem caused by Correa or Baldelli. I refuse to scapegoat one player, who agreed to be traded only to Houston, no one else, as the problem of the Twins. The problem of the Twins starts with ownership and everyone in between them and the players. That’s where your culture problem begins and ends, imo.

[LastOnePicked]

'That might start with a manager whose team can't start "playing loose" until the games no longer matter'

This right here.

Sure, there are a lot of contributing factors to the Twins failings, but I have noticed a trend over the years that when Rocco's Twins are under any added pressure - to start a season, to end a season, to win in Yankee Stadium, to win in October, to stop a spiral - they typically falter. That suggests a problem with preparation and readiness. And that suggests a problem with the lead voice in the dugout.

[Woof Bronzer]

1 minute ago, Squirrel said:

This article is asking is the culture problem caused by Correa or Baldelli. I refuse to scapegoat one player, who agreed to be traded only to Houston, no one else, as the problem of the Twins. The problem of the Twins starts with ownership and everyone in between them and the players. That’s where your culture problem begins and ends, imo.

No arguments from me, though I'm probably a bit less inclined to give the players a pass.  But 100%, culture flows downhill.  

[chpettit19]

2 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

 

The original poster said nobody who was traded wanted to be traded.  That's false, we know for sure that both Correa and Jax did.  

Do you think Pablo is lying when he says the culture needs to improve?  Is he a rube for thinking culture matters?  

Correa didn't "want" to be traded, he said he'd accept a trade. To one team and one team only. He didn't ask for a trade. The team came to him with the trade idea, not the other way around. Jax didn't want to be traded until they blew up the team. We know that for sure. So, the best argument for someone "wanting to be traded" is Griffin Jax not wanting to stick around after they blew up the team. That is not at all the picture people are trying to paint here.

1 minute ago, Woof Bronzer said:

In this instance we don't have to speculate, we had a pro athlete (Pablo Lopez) share his mind here.  He said culture needs to change here.  And your instinct is to dismiss what he says, because you know best, clearly.  Great job.

No, my only statement about the culture was that if Lopez knew the culture was so bad the last couple years that it was costing them games that he should've gotten together with the other veterans long before now. Otherwise, the comments you're replying to are about claims that every Twins player wanted out. I addressed that above where you also falsely claim that Correa wanted out. Jax is the only player that wanted out and that wasn't until the very end when the team was blown up. 

[cjvirnig]

On the one hand, Nick is right that catchphrases like "clubhouse culture" are often nebulous and don't really mean anything on the surface. Every team seeks to have a positive clubhouse culture. On the other hand, can anyone realistically deny that SOMETHING was wrong with this team? And I don't just mean the Pohlads. There was something wrong with the roster and/or the "culture." We saw it at the end of 2024 with some sort of issue between Correa and Lewis. This isn't to say they had a dysfunctional clubhouse or anything. There's no evidence of that. The bullpen even appeared to be a close-knit group. But something was lacking. Some sort of internal accountability among the players. If Pablo wants to shed some light on that, more power to him.    

[Aggies7]

9 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Correa didn't "want" to be traded, he said he'd accept a trade. To one team and one team only. He didn't ask for a trade. The team came to him with the trade idea, not the other way around. Jax didn't want to be traded until they blew up the team. We know that for sure. So, the best argument for someone "wanting to be traded" is Griffin Jax not wanting to stick around after they blew up the team. That is not at all the picture people are trying to paint here.

No, my only statement about the culture was that if Lopez knew the culture was so bad the last couple years that it was costing them games that he should've gotten together with the other veterans long before now. Otherwise, the comments you're replying to are about claims that every Twins player wanted out. I addressed that above where you also falsely claim that Correa wanted out. Jax is the only player that wanted out and that wasn't until the very end when the team was blown up. 

You’re acting like Carlos accepted a trade against his will lol did anyone else even ask about him? I’ve turned down jobs in my personal life because I didn’t want to leave my current job. Carlos could have said no and he’d be starting for the twins tonight 

[chpettit19]

2 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

You’re acting like Carlos accepted a trade against his will lol did anyone else even ask about him? I’ve turned down jobs in my personal life because I didn’t want to leave my current job. 

No, I'm not. I'm acting like he didn't demand a trade. Because he didn't. He didn't want to "GTFO." You're not "acting like" players actively wanted out, you're straight up saying it. With no proof at all. 1 player requested a trade. At the last minute after they blew up the team. Not because of culture. Not because he hated it in MN. Not because he hated Rocco. Not because he hated Correa who was already gone. But because they blew up the team and they weren't trying to win. Same with Correa. The FO told him they weren't looking to even try to contend anymore during his contract and they had a chance to trade him to Houston. He said he'd be open to that trade and that trade alone. Who knows if anyone else even asked. Didn't matter because that was the only trade he was willing to accept. But you're not going to believe that because you don't want to. Such is life. Free country and all.

[Doc Lenz]

1 hour ago, Aggies7 said:

Paddack wasn’t in Detroit for a day and he was bad mouthing the organization. You don’t mention the Jax and Rocco interaction the day before he was traded. You have guys still on the team saying it’s not good. Cmon be serious here. None of these guys wish they were still with the twins. They’re on contending teams, Except varland for the obvious reason.

You’re exactly correct Aggies.

when Jax came out of the Dodgers game I said to my son “this team is broken and he’s done with it”. There was no respect at all for the manager and you could notice other small things prior if paying close attention.

[Aggies7]

1 minute ago, chpettit19 said:

No, I'm not. I'm acting like he didn't demand a trade. Because he didn't. He didn't want to "GTFO." You're not "acting like" players actively wanted out, you're straight up saying it. With no proof at all. 1 player requested a trade. At the last minute after they blew up the team. Not because of culture. Not because he hated it in MN. Not because he hated Rocco. Not because he hated Correa who was already gone. But because they blew up the team and they weren't trying to win. Same with Correa. The FO told him they weren't looking to even try to contend anymore during his contract and they had a chance to trade him to Houston. He said he'd be open to that trade and that trade alone. Who knows if anyone else even asked. Didn't matter because that was the only trade he was willing to accept. But you're not going to believe that because you don't want to. Such is life. Free country and all.

I gotta hand it to Carlos, he didn’t want to leave but he did anyway, to help the twins  remove some debt. He’s a much better guy than I thought he was 😂

[Aggies7]

4 minutes ago, Doc Lenz said:

You’re exactly correct Aggies.

when Jax came out of the Dodgers game I said to my son “this team is broken and he’s done with it”. There was no respect at all for the manager and you could notice other small things prior if paying close attention.

Yes it’s very odd to argue that everyone in management, on and off the field, should be fired, but the guys who left the organization are very sad they were let go. That’s TD for ya.

[Woof Bronzer]

Twins:  "Carlos, we can only trade you if you waive your no trade.  Do you want to be traded to Houston?"

Correa: "Sure,"

Twins:  "OK, done." 

[Twins trade Correa]

TD:  "Correa didn't want to be traded!"

[chpettit19]

5 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Yes it’s very odd to argue that everyone in management, on and off the field, should be fired, but the guys who left the organization are very sad they were let go. That’s TD for ya.

Very odd to argue managers really matter and then suggest players would prefer to have their entire lives uprooted in an instant, move away from their families, lose their on team friendships, and figure out a whole new routine while still performing but now in a whole new place instead of just having their bosses changed. That's TD for ya.

[Aggies7]

2 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Very odd to argue managers really matter and then suggest players would prefer to have their entire lives uprooted in an instant, move away from their families, lose their on team friendships, and figure out a whole new routine while still performing but now in a whole new place instead of just having their bosses changed. That's TD for ya.

Their bosses haven’t changed though??? In fact one was extended during this mess of a season . Cmon now 

[USAFChief]

5 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Very odd to argue managers really matter and then suggest players would prefer to have their entire lives uprooted in an instant, move away from their families, lose their on team friendships, and figure out a whole new routine while still performing but now in a whole new place instead of just having their bosses changed. That's TD for ya.

Correa had the option of "having (his) bosses changed?"

Seriously, do you even listen to yourself?

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, Aggies7 said:

Their bosses haven’t changed though??? In fact one was extended. Cmon now 

He wasn't extended, his option was picked up. And, yes, that is an important difference. But we don't need to get into all of that now and derail this thread anymore than we already have.

The point is that my argument isn't some crazy idea. These are human beings. Your claim hasn't been that they're happy to be gone (well, you're trying to move the goalposts now), it's been that they actively wanted out. My argument has been that you have no proof of that beyond your belief that they should want out because of the state of the organization. I've provided multiple quotes from the players themselves that disprove that idea and provided multiple examples of players who actively chose to stay in worse situations and not go to contending teams. 

You then chose to mock my argument as "odd." So, I provided a few reasons why players would not have wanted out like you claim. It's actually not a lot of fun, but instead pretty darn stressful, to up and move to a new city you didn't choose on a moment's notice without knowing where you're going to go. And then be expected to perform immediately in a new clubhouse with new teammates, a new manager, and new culture/routine you know nothing about. It's more than reasonable to argue that players didn't want to be traded and that a clean sweep from top to bottom is what's needed and that the cultural struggles Pablo is talking about are actually veiled suggestions at not bringing Rocco back.

[KirbyDome89]

45 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

Do you think Pablo is lying when he says the culture needs to improve?  Is he a rube for thinking culture matters?  

Is anybody actually arguing that it absolutely doesn't? The most pushback I've seen (and I agree with this) is that culture is often a proxy for performance. 

[chpettit19]

2 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Correa had the option of "having (his) bosses changed?"

Seriously, do you even listen to yourself?

I do, and that isn't what I was claiming. The other poster suggested it was ridiculous that I could argue both that I'd like to see everyone from the Pohlads down be replaced and that players didn't want to leave. The post you're now replying to is stating that it's not crazy to think players would be happier to have their bosses replaced instead of having to uproot their lives.

[Aggies7]

16 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I do, and that isn't what I was claiming. The other poster suggested it was ridiculous that I could argue both that I'd like to see everyone from the Pohlads down be replaced and that players didn't want to leave. The post you're now replying to is stating that it's not crazy to think players would be happier to have their bosses replaced instead of having to uproot their lives.

I mean, Paddack had a smile ear to ear in that interview where he definitely wasn’t bashing the twins. Didn’t  seem to bother him all that much to be uprooted for the third time in his career.. These guys get moved around all the time. It’s part of the business, and yeah you’ll have players like Byron who are content to get paid and hopefully play 100 games a year in a market that’s not going to win anything  nor ride him too much like they would in other towns. But not every player is like that. I’m gonna guess most guys don’t want to be involved in a clown show organization. I would prefer players demanding more of their organization and not “picking up the option” on a manager who hasn’t earned a benefit of the doubt.

but that’s just me 

[chpettit19]

Just now, Aggies7 said:

I mean, Paddack had a smile ear to ear in that interview where he definitely wasn’t bashing the twins. Didn’t  seem to bother him all that much to be uprooted.. These guys get moved around all the time. It’s part of the business, and yeah you’ll have players like Byron who are content to get paid and hopefully play 100 games a year in a market that’s not going to win anything  nor ride him too much like they would in other towns. But not every player is like that. I would prefer players demanding more of their organization and not “picking up the option” on a manager who hasn’t earned a benefit of the doubt.

but that’s just me 

You're talking to the "managers don't matter because if you need a manager to tell you to take ground balls or bp when you suck at fielding or hitting you're not the player I want anyways" guy. I get it. Paddack's interview also included some stuff about having his life twisted upside down and him having to get used to things and how hard it was even though he'd been traded before, right? So, maybe it bothered him a little? Maybe that's part of why he was "bashing the Twins?" 

It is part of the business to get moved some. But another part of the business is that they learn to control what they can control, and they can't control who runs the team in the FO or from the manager's seat. Do they all like the managers on their new teams? All like the GMs and/or POBOs? What about the owners? That's part of the business, too. And if they really hate it, they can find a "normal job" that pays significantly less. I'm not denying that part of this is just part of being a professional baseball player.

I'm just pointing out that your claims that they all wanted out are beyond unsubstantiated. You want them to want out of bad situations, so you've projected on to them that they all did/do. They're humans. They build real connections. They build real lives in places. They may know it's possible they'll get traded, but that doesn't mean they want to get traded (even from bad teams) or that it isn't hard to get traded. I think you'd be surprised how many players are against being traded, even from bad teams. Most of the guys with families are not big fans.

And I think the quotes coming out of the Twins clubhouse that should concern you are Jeffers talking about the pressure being off so they can just play loose and these quotes from Lopez that the veterans that have been around this entire time just now got together to figure out a way to stop losing 5 games in a row all the time. Those aren't "players demanding more of their organization" or leaders about to set a demanding culture. If pressure is too much for you and it took them trading your friends and not you losing a ton of games for you to start trying to figure this out you aren't the ones to right the ship, in my opinion.

[MileHighTwinsFan]

[PuckettProtector]

5 hours ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

The discourse can sometimes be summed up as, "I don't know what I'm talking about, therefore none of the rest of you know what you are talking about, either."

Holy Dunning Kruger Batman. So you're the final say on subjective opinions? Kind reminder: only you can prevent narcissism.