Royals 2, Twins 1: Twins Plead No Defense in Kansas City

[Riverbrian]

21 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Can't speak for Mike but I'm suggesting pointing fingers at Buxton, Larnach, Correa and France is sort of pointless.

Yes, they have to produce. They're more important than Gasper. Way more.

But there is nothing to be done about Larnach, Correa or Buxton. They're not coming out of the lineup, nor should they. 

However, something like Gasper is a self inflicted wound. He doesn't have to be part of the problem. 

France is a quandary, I'll concede. But he was always going to be the everyday 1st baseman from the minute he signed, and I don't know what available options are actually better. 

 

You guys did notice the "...rightfully so". part?  

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

I knew that Gasper was going to be taken to task this morning on Twinsdaily... and... well... rightfully so. 

He hasn't impressed thus far. Not really close to impressing actually. No hard contact that I've noticed at the plate thus far. It's early yet but he really hasn't come close to impressing thus far.  

I know that they are not going anywhere... that was the point. These are the players that the team is sending up to the plate. This isn't a 1 game thing... this is an 11 game thing. 

The players we are primarily utilizing are the ones that got to fix this.  

Pointing fingers is not pointless.

That would make it just fingers. 

 

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

39 minutes ago, jmlease1 said:

2020 was a weird season but the Twins did make the playoffs. It was weird for everyone and we were one of the better teams in the AL.

2022 was going great and injuries utterly ruined the season. that's not on Rocco. It's totally underplaying just how bad the injury situation was to say "injuries played a part". we were signing outfielders off the street, and even with a patchwork rotation (Ober hadn't overcome his injury troubles yet, so it was Ryan, Gray, and Pray) the Twins were somehow tied for 1st on Sept 4th.

2023 also was an improvement over 2019 in playoff results; we beat a Toronto team that had 5 all-stars, 2 gold glove winners, and the league leader in strikeouts (Gausman was a really good pitcher that year!)

I generally think that Rocco has been fine, and I frequently think managers are assigned too much blame credit when a team wins and too much blame when they do poorly. That said, this season very little has gone right: his moves mostly haven't worked, both in the ones he's made and the ones he hasn't.

But what happens if they can Rocco at this point? Are things going to change significantly with Jayce Tingler as the interim? Are they really going to pull someone off the street to run the team with someone else's coaching staff?

Last night's game was unbelievably frustrating, because seeing pitchers not able to throw to 1B is crazy. Hawk was definitely trying to cover for the pitchers a bit on the broadcast, talking about how hard it is to go from throwing a pitch and being all amped up to tossing a ball gentle to 1B. but Jax wasn't even close. France doesn't get to that with a ladder. Was Jax just gripping it too tight because he knows he's been crap so far this season?

Ragans is a really good pitcher, and had a generous strike zone at times, so the fact that the Twins ran up his pitch count and saw the backside of him after 6 with the game tied wasn't terrible. Pablo looked like he was matching him, so it stunk to see him go out with an injury. but Maki not apparently knowing what was going on, seems very odd. It's not like there's a language barrier.

I don't really understand putting Gasper out at 2B. Julien is sitting right there, and while he's not a great defensive player, he's far more experienced at 2B. Either he can play it or he can't. Julien was already starting, so you had a LH hitter in the lineup against the LHP pitcher anyways. These kinds of decisions are starting to pile up on Rocco, though, and they have to start working or it's going to be someone else's turn.

Firing Rocco doesn't necessarily things will get better...but I think we're at the point in his tenure where we know how this season is going to end. 

[bean5302]

11 hours ago, USAFChief said:

They lost 2-1 giving up 2 unearned runs.

They literally handed the game to KC.

Yeah, the offense blows. It would have been enough tonight with just regular,  normal defense. 

The pitcher was responsible for one of them and KC didn't bat in the 9th because the game was already over. Again, the Twins were 0-15 last year when scoring 1 run.

Could they have won this time? Maybe. But I don't care much to blame the defense when the team scores 1 run.

[tony&rodney]

9 minutes ago, Twins_Fan_in_NJ said:

Firing Rocco doesn't necessarily things will get better...but I think we're at the point in his tenure where we know how this season is going to end. 

Here is my take since last October, which became a certainty in my mind once I saw the Opening Day roster. The Twins need to win the AL Central and draw 2 million in attendance or there is a new POBO, who hires a new manager. This is whether the team is sold or not. Just my take which means .... absolutely nothing.

Baseball has a long season with many twists and turns. I'm not sure how the season progresses or ends except for my guess in the paragraph above.

[chpettit19]

57 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

I meant more..... Not being a bad fielder, not that he can throw again. But maybe his defense will get better!

Fair enough. But I don't think he's a bad fielder. Not a gold glover, but he's an upgrade over Julien and Gasper, in my opinion. He's about average from what I've seen of him. Nothing special, but certainly not embarrassing. 

[Mike Sixel]

10 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Fair enough. But I don't think he's a bad fielder. Not a gold glover, but he's an upgrade over Julien and Gasper, in my opinion. He's about average from what I've seen of him. Nothing special, but certainly not embarrassing. 

I mean, if he's average with that bat, I'd be thrilled!

[laloesch]

Nothing is going right at the moment, but that can change with some concerted effort by this team.  What's true, we need Correa and Buxton to start hitting as soon as possible.  The sooner Lewis and Lee can join the team the better, but unfortunately it sounds like Lewis is out for at least another 5-6 weeks which is not good and now Lopez is likely out 5-6 weeks with a hammy strain. 

They should consider calling up Walker Jenkins and possibly Emmanuel Rodriquez and Luke Keaschall.  The way this team is playing they are dead in the water without reinforcements and could quickly fall below the lowly White Sox and make this a lost season long before June.

[Doctor Gast]

48 minutes ago, Twins_Fan_in_NJ said:

Firing Rocco doesn't necessarily things will get better...but I think we're at the point in his tenure where we know how this season is going to end. 

I'm not a Baldelli fan, but firing him now won't help anything. If we fire him now, that means Tingler will step in & he's worse. Eventually, Falvey will hire another Baldelli. If you want change, you have to start at the top.

There are several teams that look good on paper but haven't done very well as far as getting to the postseason. Those teams go overboard on analytics & they get weird. One team that's trying to change that is SF. I wrote a blog about that if you are interested. https://twinsdaily.com/blogs/entry/23959-will-clark-rant/ . I have great expectations for the transition of the Giants from going crazy over analytics to a more baseball-smart focus. I'd give them some time for the new management to get everything in order but so far they are surpassing my expectations, competing against the almighty Dodgers for the division lead.

 

[tony&rodney]

12 hours ago, bean5302 said:

Blaming the fielding when your team scores 1 run... Yep. It was the fielding that cost 'em!

The Twins roster was specifically and consciously built to outscore other teams even though the players rostered would often concede runs because of below average defense. Thus, when the team does not score 4 runs or more the Twins will lose more often than they will win. This was The Plan (Falvey).

However, the Twins do have a good pitching staff and there will be times when there are often going to be low scoring games. In the low scoring games, but not exclusive to these games, making routine plays is important. I am not referring to strong defensive plays but just expecting a very high ratio of success on the easiest of plays. Even poor defensive teams should be expected to make the simplest of plays. Right? One must acknowledge that it is actually possible to win games 1-0 as well. You are correct when you note the Twins record last year when scoring one run (I didn't check it but take your word for it). Still, games can be won by a score of 1-0. Once upon a time I pitched and won three 1-0 games in a week. Credit to the defense. It is possible.

The Twins need to have a minimum expectation for their players but I'm not sure what that will be right now. I guess we should expect everyone to start hitting.

[laloesch]

It also doesn't help that Paddack, and Ober have been atrocious so far and Richardson has been bad as well.  Bad pitching, no offense, lots of errors in the field = lots of loses.

[Doctor Gast]

On SKOR North before the game, they stated that the Twins rank 29th in DRS (maybe they're last now). IMO our OF defense is one of the best with CFers Buxton, Bader & Keirsey plus Wallner & Larnach are solid for cOF. Our catching is average-ish (could be better). That leaves our INF, it's fragile & terrible, especially our right side. When the Twins broke camp with Julien, Gasper & France set, I stated that we'd be competing against CWS for the cellar.

[KirbyDome89]

12 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Who said he was a savior? No one. 

The headline for the 2nd paragraph is literally "Paging Brooks Lee."

[Mike Sixel]

9 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

The headline for the 2nd paragraph is literally "Paging Brooks Lee."

And? Did he say he'd save the team? Nope. He didn't even say anything other than Gasper = bad at d. 

[KirbyDome89]

7 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

And? Did he say he'd save the team? Nope. He didn't even say anything other than Gasper = bad at d. 

Yeah Idk, does TD normally "page," backup IF, or dedicate entire articles to how the team should make room for them? There was no implication that the results last night are different with Lee at 2B? Ok....

[Mike Sixel]

5 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Yeah Idk, does TD normally "page," backup IF, or dedicate entire articles to how the team should make room for them? There was no implication that the results last night are different with Lee at 2B? Ok....

"things would be different last night" does not equal "savior". But I think we've both made our points to no end now, so I guess I'm done. 

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

1 hour ago, laloesch said:

It also doesn't help that Paddack, and Ober have been atrocious so far and Richardson has been bad as well.  Bad pitching, no offense, lots of errors in the field = lots of loses.

I wouldn't say SWR has been 'bad'. The Twins won his first start of the season and he pitched pretty well against the Royals on Monday - his defense sh!t the bed.

[tony&rodney]

1 hour ago, laloesch said:

It also doesn't help that Paddack, and Ober have been atrocious so far and Richardson has been bad as well.  Bad pitching, no offense, lots of errors in the field = lots of loses.

Actually, in fact, Simeon Woods Richardson has been decent. The defense behind him has been deplorable. 

[tony&rodney]

1 hour ago, Doctor Gast said:

On SKOR North before the game, they stated that the Twins rank 29th in DRS (maybe they're last now). IMO our OF defense is one of the best with CFers Buxton, Bader & Keirsey plus Wallner & Larnach are solid for cOF. Our catching is average-ish (could be better). That leaves our INF, it's fragile & terrible, especially our right side. When the Twins broke camp with Julien, Gasper & France set, I stated that we'd be competing against CWS for the cellar.

I'm pretty much a Twins homer. However, I retain my senses and am able to discern the differences between players. The Twins outfield is not that good. Buxton can still go get the ball on occasion but he doesn't rank up with the best any longer. Wallner and Larnach are playing because they provide thump. They do the best they can in the outfield. Bader has been a terrific centerfielder in his career but had never played in the corners. It has been clear that his reads are a work in progress. Keirsey Jr.? The Twins don't even let him play. I wish they gave him a chance on occasions. It is true that the Twins infield makes the Twins outfield look better than they are in reality. Finally, those who choose to differentiate between Castro, Miranda, France, and Julien are just exposing their bias based on internal factors. Gasper? I'm glad he he got a hit in MLB and that his parents were there to see it.

[silverslugger]

14 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

I think this mess is on the front office, and I don't think they'll hire anyone different, but you may need to fire Rocco to shake them up. Which may or may not be fair to him....

If they don't turn this around, you have to blow it up this deadline imo. If you can.

Oh, it'll be more than fair if they fire Rocco!  Fully understand your point though.

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

42 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

Actually, in fact, Simeon Woods Richardson has been decent. The defense behind him has been deplorable. 

He found an extra gear on Monday night after his first time through the line-up. Pitched pretty well and hopefully he builds on that.

[laloesch]

1 hour ago, tony&rodney said:

Actually, in fact, Simeon Woods Richardson has been decent. The defense behind him has been deplorable. 

I disagree.  His first start was not good.  He walked 4 batters, gave up 8 hits, and 4 earned runs in 5-2/3. Definitely, not decent.  His second start was better but he only managed to go 4 innings on 82 pitches so he was laboring away in that one too.

[laloesch]

1 hour ago, tony&rodney said:

I'm pretty much a Twins homer. However, I retain my senses and am able to discern the differences between players. The Twins outfield is not that good. Buxton can still go get the ball on occasion but he doesn't rank up with the best any longer. Wallner and Larnach are playing because they provide thump. They do the best they can in the outfield. Bader has been a terrific centerfielder in his career but had never played in the corners. It has been clear that his reads are a work in progress. Keirsey Jr.? The Twins don't even let him play. I wish they gave him a chance on occasions. It is true that the Twins infield makes the Twins outfield look better than they are in reality. Finally, those who choose to differentiate between Castro, Miranda, France, and Julien are just exposing their bias based on internal factors. Gasper? I'm glad he he got a hit in MLB and that his parents were there to see it.

The way I see it, they have a bunch of marginal role players in the infield with the exception of Lewis (when he's healthy), potentially Lee (when he's healthy as well), and Correa (once again starting a season ice cold).  Miranda, France, & Julien, none of these guys impress me.  Castro has potential though. 

The outfield is slightly better, but everyone knows how streaky and injury prone Buxton is.  Bader and Larnach are the ones so far that have pulled their weight. 

 

[tony&rodney]

40 minutes ago, laloesch said:

I disagree.  His first start was not good.  He walked 4 batters, gave up 8 hits, and 4 earned runs in 5-2/3. Definitely, not decent.  His second start was better but he only managed to go 4 innings on 82 pitches so he was laboring away in that one too.

Disagreement is good. I respect different thoughts and opinions. 

Here is what I saw when Simeon pitched. The defense was poor. Misplays and errors go as earned runs, but more importantly run up the pitch count and stress pitcher's arms. While I'm not real big into looking up stats, especially when I have watched the action in question, I did look up his pitching logs for his first two games. Take a look at what someone puts down as FIP (fielding independent pitching). Look it up. The numbers suggest that Woods Richardson is doing his job. I do think Simeon is a #4 or #5 pitcher and expect better from him next time out. I'm also not expecting the same performance from SWR as I do from our top three starting pitchers.

[Blyleven2011]

6 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

I'm not a Baldelli fan, but firing him now won't help anything. If we fire him now, that means Tingler will step in & he's worse. Eventually, Falvey will hire another Baldelli. If you want change, you have to start at the top.

There are several teams that look good on paper but haven't done very well as far as getting to the postseason. Those teams go overboard on analytics & they get weird. One team that's trying to change that is SF. I wrote a blog about that if you are interested. https://twinsdaily.com/blogs/entry/23959-will-clark-rant/ . I have great expectations for the transition of the Giants from going crazy over analytics to a more baseball-smart focus. I'd give them some time for the new management to get everything in order but so far they are surpassing my expectations, competing against the almighty Dodgers for the division lead.

 

I would hope it would be Toby gardenhire over tingler  , tingler can go out the door with Baldelli  ...

[Blyleven2011]

6 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

On SKOR North before the game, they stated that the Twins rank 29th in DRS (maybe they're last now). IMO our OF defense is one of the best with CFers Buxton, Bader & Keirsey plus Wallner & Larnach are solid for cOF. Our catching is average-ish (could be better). That leaves our INF, it's fragile & terrible, especially our right side. When the Twins broke camp with Julien, Gasper & France set, I stated that we'd be competing against CWS for the cellar.

We're bad doc , but I hope we aren't that bad  ...

I don't want to be laughing at falvey and Baldelli  for doing the same things over and over again , wanting different result ...

Remember  2021 , I laughed everytime they brought in colome to stop the bleeding and everytime we went extra innings , because i knew the outcome   , Remember last year with Margot pinch hitting  , these are things that makes me roll my eyes and laugh at how stupid they are because they didn't work ... 

Margot struck out pinch hitting for detroit early on that I watched , i dont know if he has broken his streak yet ...

Have they learned anything from their mistakes , we'll see  ...

[Althebum82]

15 hours ago, Twins_Fan_in_NJ said:

Any updates on Pablo?

Looks like they are hoping for a minimal IL stay, missing a couple of starts.  Zebby would be the logical replacement with Sunday being five days from his last start on 4/8.  He has done well, deserving the call-up.  As the article states, Dobnak has certainly earned it as well, but it would be with him getting an extra day of rest if he was to be chosen:   https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/twins-likely-to-place-former-all-star-on-il/ar-AA1CDz4s

[laloesch]

On 4/9/2025 at 5:34 PM, tony&rodney said:

Disagreement is good. I respect different thoughts and opinions. 

Here is what I saw when Simeon pitched. The defense was poor. Misplays and errors go as earned runs, but more importantly run up the pitch count and stress pitcher's arms. While I'm not real big into looking up stats, especially when I have watched the action in question, I did look up his pitching logs for his first two games. Take a look at what someone puts down as FIP (fielding independent pitching). Look it up. The numbers suggest that Woods Richardson is doing his job. I do think Simeon is a #4 or #5 pitcher and expect better from him next time out. I'm also not expecting the same performance from SWR as I do from our top three starting pitchers.

It's all good.  I just have a differing opinion.   There's no doubt the defense behind him was not good, but you have to acknowledge that he did LABOR A LOT in both those games and he did make significant mistakes, that led to the infield defense making mistakes behind him.  All that said, hopefully he picks it up some and should be fine, certainly better than Paddack.  As everyone has been harping on the BIG problem is the offense, absolutely atrocious.